Freeza Saga ~ Android Saga

[Kyo]

the first clash is the most important since it's the start of the fight. goku is obv better but not by that much. the point of the ground fight is that freeza's power has begun to rapidly diminish by that point and this is illustrated by how the fight gradually swings further in goku's favor as it goes on. it did not start out that way. it begins with an even exchange but freeza's ability to retaliate decreases gradually up until the point where he can't do anything anymore and goku decides he's no longer worth it.

I don’t remember Cell instantly bouncing back from a combo

you do

Spoiler

if we're comparing goku vs freeza to cell vs goku then it's a wash quite frankly. goku couldn't do anything once cell showed off his speed until after he made cell regenerate (man that was stupid as fuck btw).

or making Goku puke blood.

it was just saliva. or maybe just puke, i dunno. blood is red. or in this case, black. look at vegeta for comparison.

 

[Kyo]

P you’re conflating this with that 19/20 debate. Of course Expected Androids >>>>> SSJs. The point is that Goku thinks tooli

thinks WHAT

Forgot to mention Trunks was almost as strong as Goku

this was stupid as fuck too btw. like where did he find that power? the tenshinhan line is bs. fuck that bald-headed triclops, he's a literal peon, he ain't know shit.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

the first clash is the most important since it's the start of the fight. goku is obv better but not by that much. the point of the ground fight is that freeza's power has begun to rapidly diminish by that point and this is illustrated by how the fight gradually swings further in goku's favor as it goes on. it did not start out that way. it begins with an even exchange but freeza's ability to retaliate decreases gradually up until the point where he can't do anything anymore and goku decides he's no longer worth it.

[/QUOTE]

Freeza’s “warm up” attack was pretty lame. Both seem a bit winded, but Goku took no damage there. L for Freeza.

Then there’s that cool scene when Freeza Kiais Goku and tries to sneak via the back door. Goku probably only got out here because he can sense it (skill issue as P said), but Freeza still gets dodged and leaves with a snapped wrist and a bloody nose. Another L for Freeza.

Hitting an off guard Goku full force with his shield and not doing significant damage is also bad, but I guess that shield didn’t have

you do

Spoiler

Not like this tho

Spoiler

if we're comparing goku vs freeza to cell vs goku then it's a wash quite frankly. goku couldn't do anything once cell showed off his speed until after he made cell regenerate (man that was stupid as fuck btw).

Goku vs Cell is the go-to comparison for fights that are close but not equals for some reason. 99% of the fights in the show were either even or a total stomp.

it was just saliva. or maybe just puke, i dunno. blood is red. or in this case, black. look at vegeta for comparison.

Wasn’t it blood in the anime? The full color manga always sucks.

thinks WHAT

tooli(ing trunks is a big deal)

this was stupid as fuck too btw. like where did he find that power? the tenshinhan line is bs. fuck that bald-headed triclops, he's a literal peon, he ain't know shit.

It would all make sense if Piccolo didn’t surpass Trunks from 3 years ago. Even if Trunks was the weakest he’d still be untouchable.

 

[Kyo]

i don’t think i mentioned the warm up attack. it’s a warm up attack, so whatever.

the exchange you discuss right after is where i said goku was obv better but not by that much.

it could’ve been like that if cell didn’t stop to yap. i don’t really see any meaningful difference personally.

goku vs cell is the go-to comparison because cell says they’re well-matched but they’re honestly not. i guess the main difference between this fight and the other stomps is that goku isn’t taking serious damage very quickly, he’s just being worn down slowly. cell is having fun anyway because goku is the best warrior or whatever, to the point where he’d still rather fight goku than a stronger gohan who forced him to speed up.

yeah, in the anime it’s blood.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So how much is the difference between Goku and Freeza? 96% is too close, and 93% just makes me think “might as well make it a clean 90”.

I guess numerically the difference is that Goku vs Cell is a 88-90% and Goku vs Freeza is a 90-93%, but in the end it’s all the same.

 

[Kyo]

93% is fine. i wouldn’t argue against 96% but i would expect the list maker to have some real puny gaps in other parts of the story to be consistent.

yeah, the difference isn’t all that, but if we’re gonna be autistic about it then might as well be as precise as we’re allowed to be.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Read it again, Freeza is able to wrack up some major speed feats Goku would never be able to pull off against Cell. You have to look deeper into it. Compare panels.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Read it again, Freeza is able to wrack up some major speed feats Goku would never be able to pull off against Cell. You have to look deeper into it. Compare panels.

Bro spill the beans. Is it because he gets to Porunga first?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Don’t be lazy go look

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well I just saw Freeza being humiliated. Concession accepted.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Well I just saw Freeza being humiliated. Concession accepted.

Because you are lazy. Show me the feat that proves Freeza is closer to Goku than Goku was to Cell. It’s a really short fight. Compare the speed.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Because you are lazy. Show me the feat that proves Freeza is closer to Goku than Goku was to Cell. It’s a really short fight. Compare the speed.

It’s your argument, back it up. I’m already nice enough to always look for it, but if you don’t tell me what to look for I won’t see anything. Freeza dodges zero attacks from Goku.

 

[Kyo]

he does, right here, and this is when he's already begun to lose ki. this is also one of the few times that goku's "skill" that people babble on about is actually illustrated since he surprises and hits freeza despite the initial dodge.

Spoiler

i don't know why this matters though (well, it does matter, but i don't know why this is your argument). the fact that he lands his own attacks is generally more important here. "but look, he misses this one here, as well as--" yes, he does, and?

-----

it's pretty easy to see what p is saying. goku is never doing this to cell.

Spoiler

"but goku won that exchange" -- yes, and?

 

[Power Level Guy]

Thank you Kyo. The entire fight is chock full of feats like this. All you have to do is look and compare. Compare every panel of Cell vs Goku to Freeza vs Goku and it becomes abundantly clear that Freeza’s speed is closer to Goku than Goku’s speed was to Cell’s

Speed feats are quite easy to judge as well.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Dodging 1 kick and landing 2-3 blows (which deal little to no damage) btw isn’t “chock full” nor does it make them nigh equals. Come on now. In one page Goku dodged more attacks from Cell than Freeza did in this whole fight.

All Freeza did was fly up when Goku was expecting h2h and fire a Kiai. If anything that just means Freeza knew going head first wouldn’t work.

 

[Kyo]

goku dodges 2 blows and a flurry of ki blasts. more importantly, like i said, he never lands an attack of his own. not once. he can't hit cell without teleporting. it's just not comparable.

it doesn't matter that he dealt little damage. you need a large power advantage over someone to deal serious damage with punches and kicks before battle exhaustion settles in. find me one example to the contrary. now, freeza also failed to deal serious damage with his forcefield, which is by far the most damning part of his performance, but we already know that it was slightly weaker than goku's kamehameha at worst so whatever.

if goku tried to pull the same thing against cell, cell would've just dodged the kiai. hell, he probably would've followed goku up before that.

it doesn't mean that freeza knew that going headfirst wouldn't work (at no point does he even believe that he's weaker, even though he is), because he literally accepts a h2h fight later and they exchange blows evenly to start. again, freeza's ki begins to rapidly drop after that point and that is illustrated in his waning performance throughout the course of their last fight.

goku could never in a million years fight cell like this pre-khh/regen

Spoiler

listen, it ain't no goku vs piccolo, but like, yeah. this is probably actually the only fight in the series that is "close" where one fighter is obviously superior. maybe goku vs fat boo too, but even that one looks closer without the power of retrospect. oh wait, there's also piccolo vs freeza, and that was probably even closer. anyway, goku vs tenshinhan is not close, neither is cell vs goku, or even gotenks vs super boo probably. then you have this fight. then you have like, goku vs piccolo, which was near even.

 

[Kyo]

~ SSJ: 500,000,000

~ 100%: 450,000,000

with all that said, i honestly don't care that this is what you have, because i would make this 465 or something and that is fugly

~ 100%: 225,000

~ SSJ: 500,000

this might be a bit much though


this is mine

Freeza

I haven't done this in 5+ years. Gohan (potential unlock): 10,800 Krillin (potential unlock): 10,100 Vegeta: 29,800 Gurd: 5,000 Recoom: 40,000 Butta: 40,000 Jheese: 40,000 Goku: 90,000 - vs Ginyus: 66,000 - vs Ginyu: 75,000 - KKx2: 180,000 Ginyu: 120,000 - vs Goku: 80,000 - in Goku:

dbzeta.net

everything in here is exactly correct, god im so based

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it’s funny that we have a very similar gap but different understandings of the fight itself.

Freeza not doing damage is pretty damning because Goku was clearly beating him to a pulp. He may not have lost power from the beating, but getting your wrist snapped and and your nose busted after trying to get Goku from behind is a big L.

This bit is pretty similar to Goku and Freeza’s h2h

Spoiler

They were also pretty close before Goku uses IT and Cell speeds up. Come to think of it, we should start breaking down Cell’s suppressed levels like we do Freeza’s. But that’s for another day.

Piccolo vs Freeza is the closest of the mentioned fights. If not for Vegeta’s lind we’d all think they’re equals. Then there’s all those fights you mentioned, which are in the 10-15% range. Maybe I could raise Freeza to 470? Coincidentally that’s Coola’s official power level (but from the same magazine that said Broly = 1.4B lol)

 

[Power Level Guy]

Dodging 1 kick and landing 2-3 blows (which deal little to no damage) btw isn’t “chock full” nor does it make them nigh equals. Come on now. In one page Goku dodged more attacks from Cell than Freeza did in this whole fight.

All Freeza did was fly up when Goku was expecting h2h and fire a Kiai. If anything that just means Freeza knew going head first wouldn’t work.

Bro, you do not know how to read speed feats. If you can't see what the hell I'm talking about you suck. Kyo picked up on it like two seconds Why cant you jabroni

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Made some edits.

~ Warm up > Speed up = Kicking blast.
~ 100% Freeza is 94% of SSJ Goku now
~ Increased gap between Yardrat Goku and Trunks, revamping Android Saga numbers.

@Power Level Guy @Kyo @SSJ2 @SIAD