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Freeza Saga ~ Android Saga
- Thread starter GSM123
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@GreatSaiyaman123
I like it
I also think that Frieza (Warm-up) = Frieza (Kick against Vegeta's attack) > Frieza (Speed increase) = Frieza (shooting lightning at Goku).
What do you think about the gap between Kamiccolo (Unweighted) over Kamiccolo (Weighted) decreasing because Piccolo fusing with Kamisama had a sudden increase in power?
Is it assumed that as Piccolo trains and gets stronger, he increases his weight with his heavy clothing?
I like it
I also think that Frieza (Warm-up) = Frieza (Kick against Vegeta's attack) > Frieza (Speed increase) = Frieza (shooting lightning at Goku).
What do you think about the gap between Kamiccolo (Unweighted) over Kamiccolo (Weighted) decreasing because Piccolo fusing with Kamisama had a sudden increase in power?
Is it assumed that as Piccolo trains and gets stronger, he increases his weight with his heavy clothing?
Last edited:
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@GreatSaiyaman123
I like it
I also think that Frieza (Warm-up) = Frieza (Kick against Vegeta's attack) > Frieza (Speed increase) = Frieza (shooting lightning at Goku).
What do you think about the gap between Kamiccolo (Unweighted) over Kamiccolo (Weighted) decreasing because Piccolo fusing with Kamisama had a sudden increase in power?
Is it assumed that as Piccolo trains and gets stronger, he increases his weight with his heavy clothing?
I always had this theory too. Most of the time Piccolo (Weighted) is 80% of Piccolo (Unweighted), but Kamiccolo’s power is almost the same with and without weights. He doesn’t change his weights before fusing so it makes sense.
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But yeah if Goku and Vegeta on Earth is 88% and Vegeta vs pretty face Zarbon is ideally 88%, then supp. Cell vs Goku would be closer than that to me. Like, it was closer. It was depicted as closer, though Cell was a step ahead.
Tbh, supp. Cell vs Goku and SSJ Goku vs Freeza have some quite similar trends.
The most significant part of Goku vs Freeza that could gauge their diff better — both land shots, then Goku dodges and punches Freeza's body causing big reaction, Freeza karate chops Goku and kicks him, which doesn't affect Goku as much, Goku kicks, Freeza dodges, though Goku's reflexes are quick enough he can stay in range to still kick Freeza and drop him... Then he appears behind Freeza and goes on to a 3 attack combo that then shows clear as day Freeza isn't strong enough — Goku sees Freeza's power starts then falling noticeably and sees no point in the fight anymore.
Cell vs Goku — Cell moves too quick for Goku to follow, hits his face, dodges Goku's next attack and elbows him, Goku reacts quickly in both of these strikes though and is always trying to hit back or put up some distance, though Cell still quickly moves too fast and slaps him into the ground as well, Goku quickly get up but Cell is too quick... Right there and then, I could see it as similar to Kaioken Goku vs 18k Vegeta or 24k Vegeta vs Zarbon... But Goku still does drag it more by, once getting quick consecutive jabs, dodging Cell's next hit and kicking him in the body and upwards, moving quickly behind him, tho Cell dodges, tries to hit Goku, who also dodges... Cell then says this is funnier than expected... So that already makes it different, a little closer than a 88% gap to me.
Then there's the whole KMHMH scene which both spend energy. Ppl say Cell spent more because he regenerated after having half his body destroyed, but... Idk, Cell replies to Goku saying the Regen costed him a lot of energy by "look who's talking, you're out of breath yourself". To me seems like pointing that Goku spent just as much if not more due to showing more visible fatigue signs... I mean, it seems pretty likely, tho maybe Cell's holding back means he can have a bigger dip in power in comparison to whatever level he was using while showing less tiredness? Perhaps... But in the next barrage of chi blasts, Cell was breathing more heavily too, so eh, there wasn't anything showing Cell lost more power than Goku after the KMHMH and regeneration... Both still landed a solid shot on each other (like Goku and Freeza for the final panel and chapter of their initial melee exchange), then Cell gets the next hit and Goku goes for the so be it with the chi blasts, which forced Cell to put up a barrier and damaged him, as per Cell, though Goku spent a lot more of chi and was breathing twice as heavily as after the KMHMH... And, like in the Goku vs Freeza fight, Cell noticed the chi depletion and saw no point in continuing unless Goku ate a senzu, while Goku saw no point in keeping battling Freeza and just told him to live with this anguish of being bested. Goku seemed fine in terms of stamina too, wasn't showing any exhaustion sign.
True, Goku had some tricks like the IT KMHMH, but that came at the cost of him losing as much chi as Cell, at least — maybe one can compare it to Freeza losing a little bit of power post his force shield attack as he said he shouldn't be caught in the explosion otherwise he'd lose even more power... Goku, like Cell with IT KMHMH, took that special shield armor chi attack from Freeza, too, and seemed even if briefly a little exhausted... Then there is the each one landing a shots finishing the chapter similar to Goku and Freeza.
Like, I see some similar tendencies in both fights. There are patterns. I don't see one fight as clearly more one sided than the other quote honestly... And that's after having just checked both fights again which I had already pretty much memorized lulz.
88% Kaioken Goku vs 18k Vegeta, 88% 24k Vegeta vs Zarbon... So supp. Cell vs Goku and SSJ Goku vs Freeza can be, like... 92%? Seems fine imo. Or, if there is still a slight superiority in Cell vs Goku, a small, small one, then 91% Cell vs Goku and 93% Goku vs Freeza... Ehh sounds fine. To be more technical as getting my
nitpick side to work on, 91.6% Goku vs supp. Cell and 93% SSJ Goku vs Freeza
SSJ Goku — 250,000,000
100% Freeza — 233,000,000
MSSJ Goku — 12,000,000,000
Supp. Cell — 13,100,000,000
Bonus
MSSJ Gohan — 15,000,000,000
Cell (vs Gohan) — 16,000,000,000
Yeah... My PLs are generally considered GOATed so just some few p levels to be appreciated
Tbh, supp. Cell vs Goku and SSJ Goku vs Freeza have some quite similar trends.
The most significant part of Goku vs Freeza that could gauge their diff better — both land shots, then Goku dodges and punches Freeza's body causing big reaction, Freeza karate chops Goku and kicks him, which doesn't affect Goku as much, Goku kicks, Freeza dodges, though Goku's reflexes are quick enough he can stay in range to still kick Freeza and drop him... Then he appears behind Freeza and goes on to a 3 attack combo that then shows clear as day Freeza isn't strong enough — Goku sees Freeza's power starts then falling noticeably and sees no point in the fight anymore.
Cell vs Goku — Cell moves too quick for Goku to follow, hits his face, dodges Goku's next attack and elbows him, Goku reacts quickly in both of these strikes though and is always trying to hit back or put up some distance, though Cell still quickly moves too fast and slaps him into the ground as well, Goku quickly get up but Cell is too quick... Right there and then, I could see it as similar to Kaioken Goku vs 18k Vegeta or 24k Vegeta vs Zarbon... But Goku still does drag it more by, once getting quick consecutive jabs, dodging Cell's next hit and kicking him in the body and upwards, moving quickly behind him, tho Cell dodges, tries to hit Goku, who also dodges... Cell then says this is funnier than expected... So that already makes it different, a little closer than a 88% gap to me.
Then there's the whole KMHMH scene which both spend energy. Ppl say Cell spent more because he regenerated after having half his body destroyed, but... Idk, Cell replies to Goku saying the Regen costed him a lot of energy by "look who's talking, you're out of breath yourself". To me seems like pointing that Goku spent just as much if not more due to showing more visible fatigue signs... I mean, it seems pretty likely, tho maybe Cell's holding back means he can have a bigger dip in power in comparison to whatever level he was using while showing less tiredness? Perhaps... But in the next barrage of chi blasts, Cell was breathing more heavily too, so eh, there wasn't anything showing Cell lost more power than Goku after the KMHMH and regeneration... Both still landed a solid shot on each other (like Goku and Freeza for the final panel and chapter of their initial melee exchange), then Cell gets the next hit and Goku goes for the so be it with the chi blasts, which forced Cell to put up a barrier and damaged him, as per Cell, though Goku spent a lot more of chi and was breathing twice as heavily as after the KMHMH... And, like in the Goku vs Freeza fight, Cell noticed the chi depletion and saw no point in continuing unless Goku ate a senzu, while Goku saw no point in keeping battling Freeza and just told him to live with this anguish of being bested. Goku seemed fine in terms of stamina too, wasn't showing any exhaustion sign.
True, Goku had some tricks like the IT KMHMH, but that came at the cost of him losing as much chi as Cell, at least — maybe one can compare it to Freeza losing a little bit of power post his force shield attack as he said he shouldn't be caught in the explosion otherwise he'd lose even more power... Goku, like Cell with IT KMHMH, took that special shield armor chi attack from Freeza, too, and seemed even if briefly a little exhausted... Then there is the each one landing a shots finishing the chapter similar to Goku and Freeza.
Like, I see some similar tendencies in both fights. There are patterns. I don't see one fight as clearly more one sided than the other quote honestly... And that's after having just checked both fights again which I had already pretty much memorized lulz.
88% Kaioken Goku vs 18k Vegeta, 88% 24k Vegeta vs Zarbon... So supp. Cell vs Goku and SSJ Goku vs Freeza can be, like... 92%? Seems fine imo. Or, if there is still a slight superiority in Cell vs Goku, a small, small one, then 91% Cell vs Goku and 93% Goku vs Freeza... Ehh sounds fine. To be more technical as getting my
nitpick side to work on, 91.6% Goku vs supp. Cell and 93% SSJ Goku vs Freeza SSJ Goku — 250,000,000
100% Freeza — 233,000,000
MSSJ Goku — 12,000,000,000
Supp. Cell — 13,100,000,000
Bonus
MSSJ Gohan — 15,000,000,000
Cell (vs Gohan) — 16,000,000,000
Yeah... My PLs are generally considered GOATed so just some few p levels to be appreciated
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Cell was also said to be not just one, but two steps ahead of Goku. I don't think there's any way you could reach that conclusion about SSJ Goku vs Freeza, at least initially. Once Freeza's stamina dropped, sure.
Goku is much more skilled at fighting than Freeza. He's able to make it look like he's doing decently when he's actually two steps behind.
Goku is much more skilled at fighting than Freeza. He's able to make it look like he's doing decently when he's actually two steps behind.
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88% Kaioken Goku vs 18k Vegeta, 88% 24k Vegeta vs Zarbon... So supp. Cell vs Goku and SSJ Goku vs Freeza can be, like... 92%? Seems fine imo. Or, if there is still a slight superiority in Cell vs Goku, a small, small one, then 91% Cell vs Goku and 93% Goku vs Freeza... Ehh sounds fine. To be more technical as getting my
I thought you forgot how power levels work?
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To be clear, there can be some variance in power, but it probably wouldn't be much between Speed up and Kicking Blast Away/Warm Up Freeza.
Explain Piccolo fusing with Nail's weighted boost.
Freeza showcases significant speed feats that prove he is closer to Goku than Goku was to Cell. Plus, Goku's skill keeps him in the game more with Cell and Goku's skill against Freeza widens the appearance of the gap.
Goku vs Cell (Post KHH) is much more competitive than Goku vs Cell (Pre-KHH). Cell lost more power than Goku here.
Yeah, obviously these are small percentage differences but they matter at this key area. Freeza is still at least somewhat competitive, whereas Goku is barely hanging on.
Goku is 90-91% of Cell and Freeza is 93-94% of Goku. That should suffice.
Agreed, it's weird to see these guys arguing that these two fights are as close as they are suggesting. Freeza clearly has some true rivaling feats whereas Goku is literally barely and I mean BARELY just hanging on. There's a clear divide here.
Yep, my point to. That's what makes the two fights seem closer than their power/speed feats actually suggest. Goku widens the gap with his skill vs Freeza and closes the gap with skill on Cell.
You and Kyo seem to have the same impression as me. ahill and GSM are lagging behind per usual as of late.
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@SSJ2
I don't think skills were implied to be factored there. Piccolo was slightly stronger than Freeza after merging with Nail and yet their fight was very even, with Piccolo showing that barely noticeable, small edge.
@Power Level Guy
Which speed feat did Freeza just show there which clearly makes it more competitive? Cell also moved quickly and landed a 4 hit combo on Goku after the first Shunkan Ido usage, sure, but then Goku went on to dodge Cell's straight left after the right jabs and kicked him upwards. Then, Goku dodged Cell's last attack as well, aimed at slamming Goku down, which concluded the first part of the fight, with the arena still on... And before the IT KMHMH, Goku was, although clearly having a hard time, getting out of the range of Cell's many chi blasts thrown, which weren't simply thrown randomly, but with precision. Clarify which of those moments showed a visible difference, please.
Like I said, I've it as 91% Goku vs Cell and 93% Freeza vs Goku. So pretty much the same, maybe with a slight edge for Cell vs Goku gap, but again, nothing meaningful or too noticeable. Slight, maybe.
Vegeta said one or two steps, he didn't decisively said two steps. Plus, that's also accounting for the likelihood of Cell holding back power, as he saw Cell suggesting Goku to take a senzu bean, saying his chances would slightly increase... Which would be weird confidence if Cell hadn't more in the tank, as Cell's power had fallen considerably. Vegeta also only laid that out when the fight was already over.
I don't think skills were implied to be factored there. Piccolo was slightly stronger than Freeza after merging with Nail and yet their fight was very even, with Piccolo showing that barely noticeable, small edge.
@Power Level Guy
There were no speed feats shown there that separated one fight from another. And that's coming from someone who knows how both fights went down exactly. Freeza charges at Goku, then changes his trajectory midway and sends him a Kiai, which stuns Goku momentarily. Freeza, then, appears behind Goku trying to get a shot in, to which Goku dodged, hurt Freeza by hitting him with his back part of the head and throwing him upwards. Then, there was the KMHMH vs barrier clash, which Freeza sneakily got out the KMHMH pressure and hit Goku full on.
Which speed feat did Freeza just show there which clearly makes it more competitive? Cell also moved quickly and landed a 4 hit combo on Goku after the first Shunkan Ido usage, sure, but then Goku went on to dodge Cell's straight left after the right jabs and kicked him upwards. Then, Goku dodged Cell's last attack as well, aimed at slamming Goku down, which concluded the first part of the fight, with the arena still on... And before the IT KMHMH, Goku was, although clearly having a hard time, getting out of the range of Cell's many chi blasts thrown, which weren't simply thrown randomly, but with precision. Clarify which of those moments showed a visible difference, please.
Cell did not lose more power. It wasn't stated. Rather, Cell replied back to Goku saying he lost a lot of power by pretty much saying "the same goes to you", and then adding that Goku was out of breath himself. Cell was not breathing heavily until Goku lashed all those blasts to which Cell put up the chi barrier. If anything, Goku lost more power as he was more tired. Still, each fighter got a hit on the other, right on the chapter's last panel, similar to Goku and Freeza each getting a hit on, in the last chapter's panel. Tho yeah, Cell had the upper hand by getting in the second hit, which made Goku go for the chi blasts storm... As for Freeza vs Goku, the latter also quickly showed the upper hand after Freeza's chop and kick, to which Goku then landed a 4 hit straight combo, hurting Freeza, and marking the end of the fight as Freeza's power started to fall quickly.
Actually, both Freeza [vs Goku] and Goku [vs Cell] were somewhat competitive, all while being on the losing side. There's no meaningful difference. Cell's statement regarding his and Goku's powers reflected it perfectly — "it's more fun when fighters are close to a certain extent/somewhat close like this". "Somewhat close". It's just like that, Goku clearly on the losing edge, but somewhat competitive. Freeza was also getting outworked and losing the majority of the main exchanges, but was also somewhat competitive.
Like I said, I've it as 91% Goku vs Cell and 93% Freeza vs Goku. So pretty much the same, maybe with a slight edge for Cell vs Goku gap, but again, nothing meaningful or too noticeable. Slight, maybe.
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You clearly don’t. You aren’t factoring in the speed feats. You have to look at the different speeds and how the opponent reacts to those speeds.
Read the fight again please. Compare Goku vs Cell (Post Warm Up - Pre KHH) and compare Goku vs Freeza (Post 100% - before lost power 2nd time)
Of course he did. Goku is actually competitive Post KHH whereas Pre KHH it was almost a KK Goku vs Vegeta situation.
Only thing I disagree with here is the maybe. It’s a definite. It’s a slight, small gap that is accentuated by Goku’s skill and the little difference is the gap from being bottom end rivaling to barely hanging on.
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Goku was close to being unable to fight back against Cell. He landed several attacks at the beginning when Cell allowed himself to be hit. He then dodged Cell's KHH with Shunkan Ido and kicked Cell while off guard. Cell then demonstrates the gap between them. Goku was unable to hit Cell and Cell continually was able to take his back. All Goku could do was dodge one or two of those attacks and push Cell back with a weak kick. The rest of it was him being completely dominated. That doesn't look anything like a fight between rivals to me.
Cell destroys the ring and Goku immediately resorts to the Shunkan Ido KHH as he knew he had no chance otherwise. The rest of the fight is unimportant as neither fighter was at full power. I would say skill is definitely a factor here. Cell recognized Goku's skill as a warrior immediately after their warm up and knew he was different from the rest from the warm up alone. That implies that Goku's skill was already apparent. And even after Cell was beating down Goku he was still impressed by Goku not being completely destroyed. Goku was barely even managing to fight back, Cell had no reason to be impressed if not for Goku's ability to remain in the fight at such a disadvantage.
Compare this to Goku vs Freeza which is shown in a true back and forth style. Goku lands an attack, Freeza lands an attack. There was barely even a discernible advantage in the fight. Only once Freeza's stamina dropped in the hand to hand combat was the difference apparent.
Cell destroys the ring and Goku immediately resorts to the Shunkan Ido KHH as he knew he had no chance otherwise. The rest of the fight is unimportant as neither fighter was at full power. I would say skill is definitely a factor here. Cell recognized Goku's skill as a warrior immediately after their warm up and knew he was different from the rest from the warm up alone. That implies that Goku's skill was already apparent. And even after Cell was beating down Goku he was still impressed by Goku not being completely destroyed. Goku was barely even managing to fight back, Cell had no reason to be impressed if not for Goku's ability to remain in the fight at such a disadvantage.
Compare this to Goku vs Freeza which is shown in a true back and forth style. Goku lands an attack, Freeza lands an attack. There was barely even a discernible advantage in the fight. Only once Freeza's stamina dropped in the hand to hand combat was the difference apparent.
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Exactly! ahill and gSM must be jabronis or trolls for not seeing that. The entire fight is encompassed by that huge whiff Goku does when trying to hit Cell who appears far away with a look of leisure. The degradation and absolute insane points these two veterans have consistently is straight up appalling.
Yes!
Yes!
Bro, I'm convinced, ahill and GSM just suck. I don't think I can even debate with those guys anymore it's becoming ridiculous now.
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Nah, 2025 the year of no chill. Trump is back, we got 4 years of madness coming might as well roll with it. Thunderdome baby! Respectfully of course.
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That aside, yeah I've always felt that people underrate the gap between Goku and Cell because of the post-Kamehameha fight performance that was more even. Cell had to compensate for both the damage taken from the KHH and expended Ki from regenerating, so that part of the fight doesn't truly reflect the significant gap between them. Goku was, as SSJ2 said, close to unable to fight back what with Cell shaking off free hits he gave away to Goku and straight blitzing him while Goku could barely see his movements.
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This is in pretty stark contrast to Freeza's Kiai causing Goku pretty intense pain, and Goku displaying no real discernible advantage until Freeza's stamina began to fall visibly. I agree with SSJ2 here. The two gaps aren't comparable.
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To be precise Cell said "close to some extent" rather than straight up close. I think Viz omitted the "to some extent" part like they sometimes omit parts of statements.
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