Freeza Saga ~ Android Saga

[Kyo]

That’s not what’s shown though.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That’s not what’s shown though.

What’s shown is yo mamma’s fat ass over a double splash page

 

[SSJ2]

But like I said, if anything, the indication is that Goku lost even more power than Cell imo, as Cell stated "look who's talking" in response to Goku saying Cell spent a lot of energy (i.e, although not quantifying both losses as equal, there wasn't a separation either), and then added that Goku was out of breath himself. Cell wasn't out of breath. Still, they landed one shot each, then Cell got the last response with that punch. To which Goku responded with his final ditch effort, spamming all those chi blasts — which is tied to his power, not skills — which forced Cell to pull up the barrier, though at the expense of Goku making himself a one shot tool later.

Both noticed how they got weakened post the IT KMHMH, but Toriyama made a case to have Cell adding in one distinct factor — breathing heavily — which in that case contrasted with Cell, who was not. That to me is highlighting a difference in regards to stamina in the same exact instance, which I feel is important to imply that if anyone had lost more power from their starting point, it'd have been Goku... And Goku could still, with his last effort, force Cell to put up a barrier, with an attack that isn't dependant upon skills, it's the Vegeta's desperate signature of spamming chi blasts... That point in both fights, in which it's acknowledged one's stamina is dropping quickly (Freeza's and Goku's), one could even argue Goku made it look more impressive than Freeza did vs Goku... which, if Goku lost more power even post the IT KMHMH, would still be a testament to his own power level in comparison to Cell's.

But this difference in stamina should be clear... Cell still has reserves of power. Regenerating will lower his power but he's still not straining himself at a high level. Goku just fired an all out beam while fully revved up. He's going to be feeling the effects more even if his power technically didn't drop as much.

You are deciding that they lost equivalent amounts of power based on vague statements that are only telling us that both lost power. There is nothing there to suggest the loss in power was equal, Cell and Goku were just bantering with one another. The feats are what tell us how much power each lost.

Spoiler

If Goku vs Cell went from that to both of them being near equal, we can only believe that Cell lost more power from the KHH. But as said, Cell losing more power doesn't have much bearing on his immediate fatigue if he wasn't going all out himself.

 

[Power Level Guy]

There is nothing there to suggest the loss in power was equal, Cell and Goku were just bantering with one another. The feats are what tell us how much power each lost.

Why are they unable to see this?

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not suggesting personal bias, but there's a general desire in the fandom for Goku to be relevant in the Cell Games. Goku is the protagonist and a badass, people don't like seeing him outclassed badly by Cell here. I've even seen a lot more people suggesting that Gohan is pretty close to Goku at the Cell Games as well.

Maybe it's the portrayal of Goku leading up to the Cell Games. All of the attention was on him, we have Trunks, Vegeta desperately wanting to see what he was capable of. Cell himself even gives Goku credit and applauds his abilities. It's easy to view this situation and give Goku more credit than he deserves. When you read the fight and look directly at the feats, the reality paints a different picture.

 

[ahill1]

But this difference in stamina should be clear... Cell still has reserves of power. Regenerating will lower his power but he's still not straining himself at a high level. Goku just fired an all out beam while fully revved up. He's going to be feeling the effects more even if his power technically didn't drop as much.

You are deciding that they lost equivalent amounts of power based on vague statements that are only telling us that both lost power. There is nothing there to suggest the loss in power was equal, Cell and Goku were just bantering with one another. The feats are what tell us how much power each lost.

Spoiler

If Goku vs Cell went from that to both of them being near equal, we can only believe that Cell lost more power from the KHH. But as said, Cell losing more power doesn't have much bearing on his immediate fatigue if he wasn't going all out himself.

The original dialogue categorizes the power loss as not meaningfully different, with Cell basically saying "we're both on the same both". However, the artwork clues makes it pretty likely if anything, Goku lost more power. Cell stated "that is the same for both of us. Look at you — you're out of breath, even". That line is clearly distinguishing between a non winded character (at least showing no signs of) and a winded one (Goku).

While Cell wasn't exerting himself beyond his base power or so, that doesn't mean he isn't prone to lose power. After the barrier shield, Cell is winded, that is, showing signs of breathing heavily. So even when being far from FP, Cell isn't exempt of showing those signs, even when his power is still significant enough be be above everyone else's there except a FP Goku and Gohan... So I don't see any indication that the fact Goku was at 100% and Cell was using a baseline power and had yet to use it all, means one character is going to tire himself out faster in relation to that power they are both using, otherwise Cell wouldn't show signs of being winded even when his power was >>> Vegeta's and Trunks'.

If Cell stated they were both on the same boat and oh by the way, Goku was also showing signs of fatigue like breathing heavily... That ought to mean something.


@Kyo

That's what's shown though.

 

[ahill1]

@SSJ2

And the thing is, we don't know if they went from that to being near equals... Both landed a shot on each other, and then Cell landed one more and was rushing at Goku, to which Goku made his last effort with the chi blasts, that hurt Cell, but left Goku out of the game. That isn't near equals... That's just some level of competitiveness. If Cell states they are both on the same boat ("that is that same for both of us") — the Japanese dialogue... Implying that, from Cell's PoV, Goku shouldn't be telling him this when the same is also true for him, but that Goku still is showing traits Cell was not — "Look at you, you're out of breath, even"... Then that is saying Goku has also lost a significant amount of power that puts that on the same boat as Cell, and likely even more, as Goku, as Cell highlighted, was showing signs of breathing more heavily, which Cell was not. The dialogue and the artwork would complement the power loss being bigger from Goku's side if anything.

The chapter was finished with both Goku and Cell getting a shot on each other, but that doesn't mean this panel which you think depicts them closer than they should have been would override the implications that Goku's power loss was at least as severe as Cell's, if not more so... It'd just show that even under the same circumstances, though likely losing even more, Goku is still capable of getting a hit on Cell. That is what's shown...

 

[ahill1]

Btw, it boils down to:

—> one character is clearly shown as more winded
—> it's argued that the other character may have lost more power even when not showing those signs on page

The argument for the second is that the fact they weren't using 100% shows they can lose more power in comparison to the base level power they were showing (a level <<< their 100%) but still, not show signs of wearing down vs someone who lost less power, but was using 100%

Let's say Cell was using 60% of his powers...

Goku went from 100% to 75% post IT KMHMH for means of comparison... Cell's 60% = 110% Goku ... So Cell can lose more power, that is, go from 100 to 70, but be less winded because he was restricting himself from using 100%.

But then, that's leaning on the premise that, because Cell chose to fight at a level that was ~60% or so, any power loss he has is going to affect him less in terms of weariness. However, Cell was giving his all within the power level he set himself to. Cell is fighting at the ability of someone ~ 60. It's not because he decided to go 60 and not 100 that he wouldn't, for example, feel the weight of the attacks from a 55 opponent differently than if he were a natural 60... He is fighting within that capability.

Can he be as hurt as a 60 natural fighter from an attack because he is fighting at 60 instead of 100? He likely can. It's not like he is displaying a chi level of 100 all along, he's choosing to fight within the abilities of a 60 fighter. If he goes down to 50, that could very well be the effects of having a 1.2x power loss. Ofc, his full power still helps in the sense that being damaged when suppressed may affect his full power output, but his reserves would more than cover for that.

The point is that Cell's 100 weren't in use in that battle, they weren't influencing his durability, his speed, his power... He's suppressing to be fighting at what a natural 60 would show. His cockiness? That's likely the main advantage he has, he can be confident because he has power to spare. However, much the same way his chi that was not in use at that moment wasn't influencing all those power attributes, I also see no reason to the not shown level to affect how weary he would appear, that is, no reason for it to be different than if a natural 60 opponent were fighting — other than of course, his level of confidence, composure... What was relevant was the power Cell ser himself to be and to perform at the moment...

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Tbh 90% still looks nicer and goes with the trend of 4th form Freeza’s levels being multiples of 9. Forget this nerd shit.

 

[ahill1]

Tbh 90% still looks nicer and goes with the trend of 4th form Freeza’s levels being multiples of 9. Forget this nerd shit.

Yeah, my man!

 

[ahill1]

Let's go Saiyaman, let's go take on those noobs (well, except SSJ2, he's dangerous...).

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

I am considering some of your gaps here.

That Androids area is by far the most difficult balance beam type of gap there is, but this is damn near perfection.

Piccolo 240
17 240
18 225
Piccolo W/ Weights 220

Many have brought up the issue that I made Piccolo W/ weights too far and wasn’t in a true rivaling range. This keeps Piccolo with weights in a true rivaling range and 18 and 17 close.

18 (Initial) 1600
Vegeta 1600
Goku 1500
Trunks 1400
Piccolo 1200
20 1000

This is damn near perfection. I love these gaps.

Vegeta 100
Goku 93.75
Trunks 87.5
Piccolo 75

This is how I’ve always envisioned it but whenever I put it into numbers I couldn’t get it quite right.

I really only have one issue.

Android 20 100
Android 19 95

Previously I had 19 at 88% of 20, which I love, but you have to lose something from one place or another. There is no perfect set here.

I can possibly squeeze down to 92.5, I think that’s the best I can do.

 

[ahill1]

@GreatSaiyaman123

I am considering some of your gaps here.

That Androids area is by far the most difficult balance beam type of gap there is, but this is damn near perfection.

Piccolo 240
17 240
18 225
Piccolo W/ Weights 220

Many have brought up the issue that I made Piccolo W/ weights too far and wasn’t in a true rivaling range. This keeps Piccolo with weights in a true rivaling range and 18 and 17 close.

18 (Initial) 1600
Vegeta 1600
Goku 1500
Trunks 1400
Piccolo 1200
20 1000

This is damn near perfection. I love these gaps.

Vegeta 100
Goku 93.75
Trunks 87.5
Piccolo 75

This is how I’ve always envisioned it but whenever I put it into numbers I couldn’t get it quite right.

I really only have one issue.

Android 20 100
Android 19 95

Previously I had 19 at 88% of 20, which I love, but you have to lose something from one place or another. There is no perfect set here.

I can possibly squeeze down to 92.5, I think that’s the best I can do.

Did I convince you, P????

 

[SSJ2]

The original dialogue categorizes the power loss as not meaningfully different, with Cell basically saying "we're both on the same both"

He said what?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I really only have one issue.

Android 20 100
Android 19 95

Previously I had 19 at 88% of 20, which I love, but you have to lose something from one place or another. There is no perfect set here.

I can possibly squeeze down to 92.5, I think that’s the best I can do.

Is this post? I think it’s fine. 20 post > 19 post isn’t even needed, I dare say.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Is this post? I think it’s fine. 20 post > 19 post isn’t even needed, I dare say.

I think I'll keep everything the same but put Piccolo at 125. That makes everything work. If Piccolo is a little stronger, it allows for 20 > 19.

I prefer them majorly. Remember, 20 is having all these thoughts of beating Vegeta, if he's very close to 19, it seems much less reasonable.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think I'll keep everything the same but put Piccolo at 125. That makes everything work. If Piccolo is a little stronger, it allows for 20 > 19.

I prefer them majorly. Remember, 20 is having all these thoughts of beating Vegeta, if he's very close to 19, it seems much less reasonable.

I think Piccolo at 75% of Vegeta is the golden gap, you get Vegeta at 75% of 18 who’s 90% of 17. Somehow I squeezed Piccolo at 70% of Vegeta, this puts Vegeta right in the middle between Piccolo and 17.

Gero plans on beating 19 after absorbing everyone else’s energy. Him dodging Vegeta is quite a feat, but I can’t help but think the rocks saved him.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Gero plans on beating 19 after absorbing everyone else’s energy. Him dodging Vegeta is quite a feat, but I can’t help but think the rocks saved him.

Yeah, it's the rocks, but he's gotta be at least 1.1x 19 for that feat imo.

I think Piccolo at 75% of Vegeta is the golden gap, you get Vegeta at 75% of 18 who’s 90% of 17. Somehow I squeezed Piccolo at 70% of Vegeta, this puts Vegeta right in the middle between Piccolo and 17.

If you make one area too big it messes up the other areas.

So now you are forced to take 19~20, there are no right answers here, just trade-offs. Just gotta pick and choose which trade-off you want.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

there are no right answers here, just trade-offs. Just gotta pick and choose which trade-off you want.

This is how I feel about Babidi’s ship. Remember how much work we had with that chain? And you got rid of Shin > Piccolo to make it work, while I always insisted Pui Pui was the weak link…

Hey, should I get this list to early Boo Saga?

 

[Power Level Guy]

This is how I feel about Babidi’s ship. Remember how much work we had with that chain? And you got rid of Shin > Piccolo to make it work, while I always insisted Pui Pui was the weak link…

My issue with that is Pui Pui's strength is the foundation of what everything is built on. There's simply questions I cannot answer if Shin > Pui Pui.

For example, how strong is Vegeta finishing Pui Pui? Is he stronger than Shin? How much stronger is he than Pui Pui? Why would he used 10x the strength needed to do the job? Why would Shin be crapping himself over a power weaker than himself? Shin can't see Pui Pui moving in slow motion?

This is a fundamentally different issue than the Androids stuff.

You should have a complete list ready to go.