Freeza Saga ~ Android Saga

[ahill1]

He said what?

Boat

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

My issue with that is Pui Pui's strength is the foundation of what everything is built on. There's simply questions I cannot answer if Shin > Pui Pui.

For example, how strong is Vegeta finishing Pui Pui? Is he stronger than Shin? How much stronger is he than Pui Pui? Why would he used 10x the strength needed to do the job? Why would Shin be crapping himself over a power weaker than himself? Shin can't see Pui Pui moving in slow motion?

This is a fundamentally different issue than the Androids stuff.

You should have a complete list ready to go.

Oh no Pui Pui > Kaioshin for sure, it’s just Pui Pui >>> Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin that breaks it.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Cell Saga done @Power Level Guy @SSJ2 @Kyo @ahill1 @SIAD @Yoshi

I thought I’d go for a lower gap between Goku and Gohan, but 1.5x is neat. And notice how Gohan’s lazy KHH has Saiyan Saga amp, Gohan is so OP he can counter Cell’s best with a pathetic amp.

 

[Kyo]

Hello

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Yeah, to make plenty of spacing for Base Saiyans > Piccolo, using a 1.5x gap between Goku and Gohan is good.

I also like having plenty of room to make Kid Gohan > Teen Gohan > CG Goku.

Kid Gohan 375
Teen Gohan 300
CG Goku 250

Lots of spacing there. It’s great, I’m super happy with it.

and for Cell I easily cover the gap.

Cell (Vs Goku) 275
Cell (Vs Gohan) 350

So Cell’s power-up doesn’t have to be too much.

And yeah Gohan is clearly using a reduced Kamehameha vs PC’s blast, no need to go all out.

 

[Power Level Guy]

How did you handle LG and Mid-Rosat Goku.

Making Mid Rosat Goku on par with Piccolo changed the game for me.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How did you handle LG and Mid-Rosat Goku.

Making Mid Rosat Goku on par with Piccolo changed the game for me.

Didn’t give that any thought. Working backwards he’s over 2x Kamiccolo. He’s been in the Rosat for a good while, he can make some gains.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Didn’t give that any thought. Working backwards he’s over 2x Kamiccolo. He’s been in the Rosat for a good while, he can make some gains.

In two months he’s tripled his power? Why the need to go beyond Super Saiyan if that’s the case?

 

[SIAD]

@GreatSaiyaman123

I really like your list, I'm interested in seeing the Arc Boo.

Do you have the Giant Buff Cell Form with a higher boost than the Buff Cell Form?

In two months he’s tripled his power? Why the need to go beyond Super Saiyan if that’s the case?

Because he had known the terrifying power of Semi-Perfect Cell (Initial) and that it is far beyond the power of the Androids.

 

[SSJ2]

The original dialogue categorizes the power loss as not meaningfully different, with Cell basically saying "we're both on the same both". However, the artwork clues makes it pretty likely if anything, Goku lost more power. Cell stated "that is the same for both of us. Look at you — you're out of breath, even". That line is clearly distinguishing between a non winded character (at least showing no signs of) and a winded one (Goku).

While Cell wasn't exerting himself beyond his base power or so, that doesn't mean he isn't prone to lose power. After the barrier shield, Cell is winded, that is, showing signs of breathing heavily. So even when being far from FP, Cell isn't exempt of showing those signs, even when his power is still significant enough be be above everyone else's there except a FP Goku and Gohan... So I don't see any indication that the fact Goku was at 100% and Cell was using a baseline power and had yet to use it all, means one character is going to tire himself out faster in relation to that power they are both using, otherwise Cell wouldn't show signs of being winded even when his power was >>> Vegeta's and Trunks'.

If Cell stated they were both on the same boat and oh by the way, Goku was also showing signs of fatigue like breathing heavily... That ought to mean something.

But again, that's not a direct statement at all. It's just Cell telling us that both of them were significantly weaker/lower on stamina than before.

Look at Cell's KHH when he forced Goku to teleport. It was clearly a highly potent attack as Goku warned him not to fire it, and it had a similar amount of charging to Goku's IT KHH, yet Cell showed no signs of fatigue after it. Goku on the other hand was exhausted from firing his even though he was still at full power when he did. It proves that reserves have a definite impact on stamina levels. If you have more in the tank it's easier to tolerate the drains in stamina. Cell showing signs of exhaustion later in the fight is simply a sign that his stamina was dramatically lowered to the point where even his reserves couldn't save him. He needed the senzu bean to reach his true full power.

But then, that's leaning on the premise that, because Cell chose to fight at a level that was ~60% or so, any power loss he has is going to affect him less in terms of weariness. However, Cell was giving his all within the power level he set himself to. Cell is fighting at the ability of someone ~ 60. It's not because he decided to go 60 and not 100 that he wouldn't, for example, feel the weight of the attacks from a 55 opponent differently than if he were a natural 60... He is fighting within that capability.

It's not that Cell wasn't giving his all at that level, it's that he has a constant supply of reserves to replenish his stamina with. I see it like this:

Cell FP: 150
Cell @ Goku: 100
-post KHH power: 75
-post KHH stamina: 125

Goku: 90
-post KHH: 70

He still had more than enough stamina to not feel fatigued. Once Goku pushed him to use the barrier, his stamina might have reached 100 on that scale, enough of a drop for him to be affected.

 

[ahill1]

@SSJ2


It’s not a direct statement. However, considering the next scene and the artwork — where Cell highlights the contrast in Goku breathing heavily compared to himself — it suggests Goku lost more stamina I'd say. It makes it more likely, even if not totally objective. If Cell’s losses were as significant but actually even a little more, then the earlier remark about both of them spending too much energy would’ve stood on its own. Instead, the additional emphasis on Goku’s fatigue implies that Goku’s energy drain was likely more substantial, otherwise there would be no point for that part.

Cell clearly had more energy in reserve, but he wasn’t actively using it. That relates to his durability overall. If Cell is fighting at, say, “60 out of 100,” then his toughness is likewise at 60, an ell encompassing one. That’s why, for instance, Freeza needed to boost himself above 50% to block the Kaioken x20 KMHMH — having power in reserve doesn’t negate damage unless you actually tap into it. It’s the same principle, like, with Vegeta suppressing himself to let Kuririn fatally wound him: Vegeta’s “actual” strength didn’t matter once he dialed himself down. Cell was similarly giving his all, but by then, only within that 60 range.

We’ve also seen characters use full-power attacks without a major stamina loss, like Goku vs Piccolo junior (Roshi even comments Goku didn’t weaken after that Super KMHMH). We don’t know exactly how draining the KMHMH is for Goku or Cell, but we see Imperfect Cell fire one without showing fatigue, and Gohan did a full-power Kamehameha to prevent Boo’s revival without a noticeable drop in strength. To me, if a character is “suppressed,” then they’re limited to that level of strength and toughness, which includes fatigue, unless they power up, using that power that was hidden, ofc. Any energy reserves that aren’t actively in use won’t magically reduce damage or slow fatigue; otherwise, every time Goku hit Cell, you’d have to wonder if “hidden reserves” shielded him from the blow, or, like, if his tiring process is different and way slower, then that kinda defeats the whole point of being suppressed to that specific level imo.

When Cell fights at “100,” in your list, he isn’t borrowing durability from another source. He’s just not taking less damage than a “natural 100” would. One thing he had as a boost was mental confidence...

... after Goku’s barrage of chi blasts, Cell was almost certainly still far ahead of Vegeta, Trunks, or Piccolo. If Vegeta were at 66/100 to Goku, then in your scale Vegeta would be a 60, right? And Cell likely around 75 but post-barrier, not post IT KMHMH. But if stamina were on a different scale from power due to reserves, you wouldn’t expect Cell to show fatigue at a certain point, an instance which he still didn't lose even near half the power he started fighting Goku with. Yet he acknowledges Goku’s damage and starts panting. That suggests to me that stamina is tied to the portion of power he’s actually using. If he’s operating at 50%, he’s burning stamina relevant to that 50% since that's what is setting his limitation and effort needed to give it and take it... With the other 50% just not lighting the load.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Goku couldn’t compete with Cell pre-KHH and post-KHH he could. Cell lost more power.

 

[SSJ2]

It’s not a direct statement. However, considering the next scene and the artwork — where Cell highlights the contrast in Goku breathing heavily compared to himself — it suggests Goku lost more stamina I'd say. It makes it more likely, even if not totally objective. If Cell’s losses were as significant but actually even a little more, then the earlier remark about both of them spending too much energy would’ve stood on its own. Instead, the additional emphasis on Goku’s fatigue implies that Goku’s energy drain was likely more substantial, otherwise there would be no point for that part.

If anything it reads the exact opposite way. Goku says Cell's Ki dropped, Cell says Goku is breathing hard. Cell lost more power, Goku lost more stamina. The two don't have to be linearly related.

I think we are looking into this far too deeply honestly. The events of the story have to come before the interpretation in this case. As said, Goku becoming more competitive at all is a direct indicator that his power had dropped less than Cell's, regardless of how you want to interpret Goku breathing harder. As you just pointed out, stamina loss has never been consistent from one case to the next, it's no different here.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Boo Saga done. It’s so easy when you accept that Base Gotenks is a joke for 11 year olds. I don’t necessarily agree with with Z Sword Gohan nearing Fat Boo, but it’s as good a placement as any.

Vegetto was omitted because I might also do a GT list next week. EoZ Goku and Vegeta lowballed to Mr Boo level for the same reason (though it’s not a necessity).

 

[Power Level Guy]

Boo Saga done. It’s so easy when you accept that Base Gotenks is a joke for 11 year olds. I don’t necessarily agree with with Z Sword Gohan nearing Fat Boo, but it’s as good a placement as any.

Vegetto was omitted because I might also do a GT list next week. EoZ Goku and Vegeta lowballed to Mr Boo level for the same reason (though it’s not a necessity).

Nice, good decision making.

Yeah, once I got over the false Base Gotenks hype and accepted Shin’s weakness, the Buu Saga became easy.

 

[ahill1]

@SSJ2

If anything it reads the exact opposite way. Goku says Cell's Ki dropped, Cell says Goku is breathing hard. Cell lost more power, Goku lost more stamina. The two don't have to be linearly related.

I really don't get how it's read that way. Cell said the same was true for Goku — lost a lot of power. Then, he complemented that by saying Goku is breathing heavily himself. The additional breathing heavily is directed linked to the loss of power, there was no separation between power loss and stamina there... They complemented each other.

I think we are looking into this far too deeply honestly. The events of the story have to come before the interpretation in this case. As said, Goku becoming more competitive at all is a direct indicator that his power had dropped less than Cell's, regardless of how you want to interpret Goku breathing harder. As you just pointed out, stamina loss has never been consistent from one case to the next, it's no different here.

Eh, we are kinda always looking too far if we want to determine which fight is closer. Power gaps tend to get things looked too far.

But I don't think that's looking too far, it sounds fairly straight out to me — Cell said Goku also lost a lot of power like him, and added that Goku was even breathing heavily, which isn't shown to not correlate to power loss there.

It's not consistent in the sense of characters breathing heavily along different scenes and fights. However, here would be different because it's a connection that it's being established in the same moment as a contrast between both fighters, so the consistency to that scene is expected to hold up as in what it was trying to show — a fighter that's fresher than the other. It isn't necessarily invalidated due to breathing heavily not having a similar pattern accross different instances, since in this case it is being used as a discern trait pointed by the character himself.

But the fight was too different? I disagree. It'd be too different if we assume Goku can't land a hit on Cell if they are 100%. Goku had landed a hit before this portion of the fight, though Cell managed to get a 4 hit combo before Goku managed to land his kick, throwing Cell upwards.

Neither Goku nor Cell were damaged after those hits when they were 100%... Goku was able to avoid Cell's attempted attacks twice... So both Goku and Cell getting a shot on each other later on, marking the end of the chapter, with the next chapter featuring Cell retaliating with a more devastating shot that made Goku go for the all or nothing, is not contradictory to their earlier fight and thus, to the implication that if anyone lost more power, it was Goku. It just means Goku and supp Cell were close to a point Goku could get some shots in and not be a total pushover — just like Freeza vs SSJ Goku.

 

[ahill1]

Goku couldn’t compete with Cell pre-KHH and post-KHH he could. Cell lost more power.

There isn't anything pointing to that. When they were 100%, Cell blitzed Goku and got a 4 hit combo, which Goku toughened out, managed to dodge Cell's following attack, kicked him upwards, appeared behind him and tried to hit him, though Cell dodged; then, Cell moved, again, quick enough to get another hit on Goku, though Goku could follow him and dodged Cell's attampt to slam Goku to the floor. Cell then said the fight was even more fun that he imagined initially (when he had already said they were somewhat close), and stated it'd be too bad if either of them lost via an out of bounds, thus destroying the arena. Cell then started to shot a lot of chi blasts trying to hit Goku, and Goku was, albeit with a lot of effort, managing to avoid getting hit by every one of them.

Post IT KMHMH, both managed to hit each other in the face, though Cell got the last laugh and landed another punch that had a more visible effect sending Goku feets away, which made Goku go for the chi blasts spam as a last ditched effort, and that's it, the fight was over, as Cell got more damaged, but not much, and Goku lost so much power with that last effort that he would likely end up being one shotted by Cell if they fought any more... In a similar way, Goku saw when the fight between him and Freeza became pointless.

Similarly to Goku losing a little more power than Cell post the IT KMHMH as implied by the dialogue followed by the artwork, Freeza also had lost am little more power than Goku before they went to the final hand to hand battle, as Freeza had noticed he'd lose even more power if caught by the planet's explosion, when he thought he had killed Goku with his shield attack. Then they had that exchange, which, much like in the Goku vs Cell, it had the chapter finished with a panel of both Goku and Freeza hitting each other in the face (like Goku vs Cell post IT KMHMH when, more likely, Goku, like Freeza, had lost a little more power than Cell).

There's no "he managed to be able to compete, he could not before". You're making it up.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Let’s do a panel vs panel break down ahill. Post all panels and I’ll walk you through it.

Goku’s whiff stands above all feats, he whiffed worse than any other rival in the history of the series my brother.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku was a pantyhose and ponytail away from Zarbon vs Vegeta

 

[Power Level Guy]

Goku was a pantyhose and ponytail away from Zarbon vs Vegeta

Exactly