Frost (Assault Form) vs Freeza (True Form; FnF Saga)

[Fantastische Hure]

Who wins? I kind-of don't remember.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Assault Form Frost >= Base Goku (U6) > Base Goku (RoF) >= True Form Freeza

Frost wins.

 

[Void]

Base Goku doesn't do so well vs. Assault Form Frost while he seems to have an advantage over True Form Freeza, and Goku should be stronger during the tournament than he was during RoF. Frost wins.

 

[Keedounan]

A weaker Goku performed better against Freeza (4th form) than a stronger Goku did against Frost (3rd form). Frost would slaughter Freeza.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

A weaker Goku performed better against Freeza (4th form) than a stronger Goku did against Frost (3rd form). Frost would slaughter Freeza.

Agreed

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Assault Form Frost >= Base Goku (U6) > Base Goku (RoF) >= True Form Freeza

Frost wins.

Pretty much this and like everyone else said, Frost takes this.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Didn't Goku tank Frost's Death Beam once he got serious, though?

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Didn't Goku tank Frost's Death Beam once he got serious, though?

I think that's in the manga only, although admittedly I only watched Goku vs. Frost once.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I thought Frost shot him with tons of death beams and when the smoke cleared, Goku didn't have a scratch on him and said he was a slow starter.

 

[Future Warrior]

I think Frost slaughters in my opinion.

 

[Animelover5487]

You know what? I am going to go against the majority here, and say Freeza could give Frost a fight. Goku by his own words is a "slow starter" and was likely not taking the fight all that seriously as shown by him casually getting up and brushing himself after receiving a beating like nothing ever happened proclaiming that it "warmed him up". Goku was just baiting Frost to transform, he didn't need Super Saiyan (at least not for Assault Frost).

 

[Fantastische Hure]

You know what? I am going to go against the majority here, and say Freeza could give Frost a fight. Goku by his own words is a "slow starter" and was likely not taking the fight all that seriously as shown by him casually getting up and brushing himself after receiving a beating like nothing ever happened proclaiming that it "warmed him up". Goku was just baiting Frost to transform, he didn't need Super Saiyan (at least not for Assault Frost).

Would you say it'd be an easy win?

 

[Animelover5487]

You know what? I am going to go against the majority here, and say Freeza could give Frost a fight. Goku by his own words is a "slow starter" and was likely not taking the fight all that seriously as shown by him casually getting up and brushing himself after receiving a beating like nothing ever happened proclaiming that it "warmed him up". Goku was just baiting Frost to transform, he didn't need Super Saiyan (at least not for Assault Frost).

Would you say it'd be an easy win?

No, that's what I was saying Assaulr Frost vs Final Form Freeza would be a close fight since I don't think Base Goku was taking Frost that seriously.

 

[freezamite]

That's the problem of DBS the anime. Assault form Frost was even weaker than Assault form Freezer in Namek, the problem is that DBS doesn't distinguish between base Goku and base God Goku.
Piccolo did a good fight against final form Frost, and no, Piccolo wasn't above SSJ God base Goku in terms of power, not even close to it.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

base Goku = base post god Goku

Assault form Frost would one shot assault form Namek Freeza

 

[Keedounan]

That's the problem of DBS the anime. Assault form Frost was even weaker than Assault form Freezer in Namek

On which basis ? That Freeza was far from using his full power in his final form because he has been weakened by the Spirit Bomb ? Okay, Goku was even more damaged than Freeza, and rage doesn't heal wounds. So SSJ Goku was weakened as well, even more than Freeza. He could still fight evenly with him and even defeat him.

Frost ? Traded blows with a base goku stronger than SSJG Goku (BoG), something that Freeza (DBS) could do with his final form.

the problem is that DBS doesn't distinguish between base Goku and base God Goku.

Do you know why ? It's because there is no difference. SSJ Goku kept his SSJG power, but he doesn't have godly ki, which totally invalidate this theory. Heck, the two base thing isn't even implied. This theory has no evidence besides inconsistencies (which can hardly be called as such), making it clear that it's nothing, but fanfiction to try and rationalize Toei Animation's powerscaling. Good luck with that.

Piccolo did a good fight against final form Frost, and no, Piccolo wasn't above SSJ God base Goku in terms of power, not even close to it.

That is what you call "hax", something that is hardly new in Toei Animation.

I might have sounded condescending, but I dislike theories which directly contradict statements and feats just for consistency's sake, despite the fact that Toei Animation almost never had a consistent powerscaling.

I've seen that you're a pretty good debator in general, but you're lacking in objectivity when it comes to Freeza.

 

[freezamite]

On which basis ? That Freeza was far from using his full power in his final form because he has been weakened by the Spirit Bomb ? Okay, Goku was even more damaged than Freeza, and rage doesn't heal wounds. So SSJ Goku was weakened as well, even more than Freeza. He could still fight evenly with him and even defeat him.

On the basis that base Goku, without its godly powers, could never fight against assault form Freezer (he would probably have problems even against Freezer weakest form).
Then I don't know why you bring the spirit bomb here because that doesn't have anything to do with that debate. If Frost was above Goku God in his assault form, then it wouldn't matter if the spirit bomb affected Freezer or not, because the difference between a FP SSJ and a SSJ God is worlds apart so there would be no debate.
But since you insist on debating it, let's do it. Rage may not heal wounds, but rage clearly replenishes and increases the strength of the one getting a rage boost.
This is completely healed, non enraged Gohan, beaten by (weakened) Vegeta:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-4.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-6.html

To the point he can't even stand up:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-9.html

But then he enrages and fights (weakened) Vegeta at his same level:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-11.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-12.html

After enraging, he has obviously recovered his strength and even increased it.

Now, let's see what happens to Goku:
After the Genkidama, he can't even swim or stand up by himself:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-2.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-4.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-5.html

Then he enrages:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-15.html

And after fighting against Freezer and wasting energy as a SSJ to do so, he dis-transforms to his base state again and he can stand up by himself without any problem. Furthermore, his eyes aren't drawn as if he is weakened (unlike before he enraged):
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-9.html

He can also fly at maximum speed without any problem:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-10.html

And he can even dodge one of Freezer's kienzans:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-11.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-12.html

So yes, it seems obvious to me that the rage boost replenished his strength. Otherwise that's nonsensical. If Goku didn't regain his strength, and he couldn't even stand up by himself before transforming, even if the SSJ transformation had been strong enough to make him go from "not having strength" to "beating injured Freezer", after turning back to his base state he should be even weaker than when he couldn't stand up on his own.

In the only two cases I can think of where a visibly injured character has a rage boost, the energy is clearly replenished thanks to it. And even more important, when it comes to the case we are discussing (Goku in Namek), it clearly replenished him.

Frost ? Traded blows with a base goku stronger than SSJG Goku (BoG), something that Freeza (DBS) could do with his final form.

Yes, of course, and also Kabba (the saiyan from U6) traded blows with base Vegeta, which means that Kabba was also a SSJ God from the U6 according to that logic.
Then Vegeta turned into a regular SSJ and Kabba didn't even know what that was, and was beaten by SSJ Vegeta, and it's obvious that this wasn't Super Saiyan God Kabba vs Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta. In fact, wasn't the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan the original term for the SSJ Blue? What would be the point in making a SSJ God multiply his strength becoming a regular SSJ and then use the red SSJ Form as an even stronger form if the regular base state already has that red SSJ Form power absorbed?

Do you know why ? It's because there is no difference.

But in the manga THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, when Goku uses his godly powers he turns to the red SSJ God.
Considering the regular SSJ forms are above that supposedly SSJ God base form, one would think that since Goku can still turn to red SSJ God when he isn't in that form he isn't using the absorbed SSJ God powers.

SSJ Goku kept his SSJG power, but he doesn't have godly ki, which totally invalidate this theory.

It doesn't invalidate anything since in the manga Goku clearly turns into the red SSJ God when he uses the red SSJ God powers. And of course, Piccolo fighting final form Frost invalidates Assault form Frost being above SSJ God Goku in terms of power.
In the anime, well, besides it being bullshit it still showed the regular SSJ forms above the base state forms. And even if those base state forms could have access to the SSJ God powers, it could also be argued that both Goku and Vegeta limited his power to the power they would have if they didn't absorb the SSJ God powers, because what's 100% impossible to justify is Piccolo being above a SSJ God.

This theory has no evidence besides inconsistencies (which can hardly be called as such), making it clear that it's nothing, but fanfiction to try and rationalize Toei Animation's powerscaling. Good luck with that.

Where is it said we're talking about the anime? I was talking about the DBS manga. What's the point on discussing about the DBS anime when it has no logic? I mean, that's the same anime that puts SSJ2 Trunks at SSJ3 Goku levels of power, and a couple of chapters later, that SSJ2 Trunks performs much better against SSJ Rose Black than SSJ Blue Goku.
In the manga, Frost as a fighter is below Namek Freezer in every single form, without discussion. In the anime? I don't care, you can even put Frost's weakest form above Golden Freezer if you feel like it, and I won't even question it. Heck, as I've said, even Satan could become stronger than SSJ Blue Goku if Toei wanted, that's how bad this series is.

That is what you call "hax", something that is hardly new in Toei Animation.

But not in the manga. I already said the anime has 0 coherence.

I've seen that you're a pretty good debator in general, but you're lacking in objectivity when it comes to Freeza.

I don't think I'm lacking objectivity when everything I say I back it up with manga feats that demonstrate it. In the thread about Nappa I was also accused of being a "Nappa fanboy" because I said he was stronger than Goku. But no, even if I was a fanboy of a given character (my favourite character of the series is Kid Bu, by the way, although Freezer and Cell are 2nd and 3rd) I would never lie in order to make him seem stronger than what I think he was.

 

[Keedounan]

On the basis that base Goku, without its godly powers, could never fight against assault form Freezer (he would probably have problems even against Freezer weakest form).

Considering that his base form was fighting evenly with final form Freeza (heck, in the manga and movie, he was even beating him), your claim is quite a stretch.

But since you insist on debating it, let's do it. Rage may not heal wounds, but rage clearly replenishes and increases the strength of the one getting a rage boost.
This is completely healed, non enraged Gohan, beaten by (weakened) Vegeta:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-4.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-6.html

To the point he can't even stand up:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-9.html

But then he enrages and fights (weakened) Vegeta at his same level:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-11.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-42-index-2-page-12.html

After enraging, he has obviously recovered his strength and even increased it.

Now, let's see what happens to Goku:
After the Genkidama, he can't even swim or stand up by himself:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-2.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-4.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-5.html

Then he enrages:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-123-index-2-page-15.html

And after fighting against Freezer and wasting energy as a SSJ to do so, he dis-transforms to his base state again and he can stand up by himself without any problem. Furthermore, his eyes aren't drawn as if he is weakened (unlike before he enraged):
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-9.html

He can also fly at maximum speed without any problem:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-10.html

And he can even dodge one of Freezer's kienzans:
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-11.html
http://mangalife.org/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-131-index-2-page-12.html

So yes, it seems obvious to me that the rage boost replenished his strength.

Rage gives power back and more, I could figure out that much myself. My point is that even so, injuries (which reduce someone's power) still have an effect to someone's power. As such, Goku wasn't as strong as he could have been if he was unscathed, thus not exactly at his full power either.

Understood ?

Yes, of course, and also Kabba (the saiyan from U6) traded blows with base Vegeta, which means that Kabba was also a SSJ God from the U6 according to that logic.
Then Vegeta turned into a regular SSJ and Kabba didn't even know what that was, and was beaten by SSJ Vegeta, and it's obvious that this wasn't Super Saiyan God Kabba vs Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta. In fact, wasn't the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan the original term for the SSJ Blue? What would be the point in making a SSJ God multiply his strength becoming a regular SSJ and then use the red SSJ Form as an even stronger form if the regular base state already has that red SSJ Form power absorbed?

Let's just say that Kyabe is that powerful without godly ki. Well, according to :toei, at least. Remember, they are the same people who think that a combination between two fodder cyborgs can defeat a goddamn Super Saiyan 4. Or that an evil Shenron (you know, evil version of the guy who got killed by Piccolo Daimao) require the energy of an entire universe just to get rid of him.

But in the manga THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, when Goku uses his godly powers he turns to the red SSJ God.

Which means that Base Goku didn't kept his SSJG power in his weaker forms. Well, even so, Frost > Freeza. In the manga version of the arc, Freeza was losing to Base Goku. In his final form ! A stronger Base Goku was losing to 3rd form Frost.

And yet you think that 3rd form Frost is weaker than 3rd form Freeza in Namek period ? This is why I told you that you're lacking in objectivity when it comes to Freeza.

It doesn't invalidate anything since in the manga Goku clearly turns into the red SSJ God when he uses the red SSJ God powers.

Anime =/= Manga. Toyotaro =/= Toei. Even if the storyline is overall the same, the way to tell said story is completely different.As such, using the manga (in which Goku isn't stated to keep this godly power in his weaker forms) to back up your claims won't lead you anywhere.

And of course, Piccolo fighting final form Frost invalidates Assault form Frost being above SSJ God Goku in terms of power.

So, do you think that SSJR Goku (Anime) isn't above SSJG Goku because Trunks was able to fight him as well (and it was before he gained his SSJ Rage !) ? Yeah, no, Piccolo fighting Frost doesn't invalidate anything. It's just anime inconsistency anong others. Though in the manga, I can't disagree that Frost isn't god-tier.

In the anime, well, besides it being bullshit it still showed the regular SSJ forms above the base state forms. And even if those base state forms could have access to the SSJ God powers, it could also be argued that both Goku and Vegeta limited his power to the power they would have if they didn't absorb the SSJ God powers, because what's 100% impossible to justify is Piccolo being above a SSJ God.

Base Goku > SSJG Goku, it was stated in RoF arc. Concrete statements > theories imo. Even if you discard that, Copy-Vegets still curb-stomped SSJ3 Gotenks. Piccolo > SSJG is inconsistency among hundreds of others in Toei history. Base

In the manga, Frost as a fighter is below Namek Freezer in every single form, without discussion.

This is what I'm talking about with "lacking in objectivity". You don't even bother with explaining why you think that Frost is somehow weaker than Freeza even before his training.

But anyways, Manga! RoF and Manga! Super shows otherwise. 3rd form Frost > Base Goku (Champa arc) > Base Goku (RoF) > 4th form Freeza (RoF) > Mecha Freeza > 4th form Freeza (Namek arc). No statement, no implications, no theory, feats only.

I don't think I'm lacking objectivity when everything I say I back it up with manga feats that demonstrate it.

Really ? Which feat proves that Freeza (Namek) can beat Frost ? I'm curious.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Lol, Frost is not weaker than Namek Freeza in the Manga. Piccolo can't even defeat a weakened Frost and Piccolo would wipe Namek Freeza out by pissing on him.

Please stop overrating Freeza so much.

 

[freezamite]

Considering that his base form was fighting evenly with final form Freeza (heck, in the manga and movie, he was even beating him), your claim is quite a stretch.

While using the KKx10. Of course, we are speaking of base Goku's power without using the KK here.

Rage gives power back and more, I could figure out that much myself. My point is that even so, injuries (which reduce someone's power) still have an effect to someone's power. As such, Goku wasn't as strong as he could have been if he was unscathed, thus not exactly at his full power either.

Understood ?

Well, I can accept that an enraged, uninjured Goku could've been stronger. But we never saw that Goku, and the only Goku we can compare Namek SSJ Goku is post-Yadrat non injured, non enraged SSJ Goku, and he had the same strength there.
Furthermore, your claim was that Goku SSJ fought only with a fraction of his strength because he was injured when he transformed, but I already demonstrated that the SSJ trasnformation was done over an enraged base Goku that had replenished and even augmented his strength past his previous peak.
So, without mattering the formula Goku needed to get there (be it an enraged injured Goku turning into a SSJ or an unenraged uninjured Goku turning into a SSJ), the fact is that he got there.

Let's just say that Kyabe is that powerful without godly ki. Well, according to :toei, at least. Remember, they are the same people who think that a combination between two fodder cyborgs can defeat a goddamn Super Saiyan 4. Or that an evil Shenron (you know, evil version of the guy who got killed by Piccolo Daimao) require the energy of an entire universe just to get rid of him.

Yes, Toei is a constant fuck logic, that's why I never discuss anything made by Toei. I'm always speaking of the manga.

Which means that Base Goku didn't kept his SSJG power in his weaker forms. Well, even so, Frost > Freeza. In the manga version of the arc, Freeza was losing to Base Goku. In his final form ! A stronger Base Goku was losing to 3rd form Frost.

There was no manga version of the arc. The only manga there existed was the FnF manga, based on the FnF movie (in other words, it was an adaptation of the movie).
In the movies Goku has in his base forms his SSJG powers absorbed, but then the movies didn't adapt the U6 tournament saga so we can't properly compare because we don't know how would those sagas develop if written using the movies logic.

The DBS manga clearly contradicts the movies in this aspect, so you can't use the logic of the FnF manga to compare character appeared there to characters that only exist in the FnF manga.

Finally, in the same way you compare how both Frost and Freezer performed against Goku, why don't you compare how they both performed against Piccolo? Piccolo was nothing against FnF Freezer's weakest form (to the point he was considered to be weaker than Gohan, and Gohan got humiliated by Freezer's weakest form) and then he could have a decent fight against true form Frost.

Even if the storyline is overall the same, the way to tell said story is completely different.As such, using the manga (in which Goku isn't stated to keep this godly power in his weaker forms) to back up your claims won't lead you anywhere.

That's if I say that using the anime to back up your claims won't lead you anywhere?
Where is it said that this is an anime only debate? And by the way, considering that the anime lacks any kind of coherence while the manga at least tries and manages to be much better, why would be discussing about the anime instead of discussing about the manga?

I mean, that's as if I open a thread saying "SSJ Blue Goku vs SSJ2 Trunks". If we use the anime the discussion is impossible. In one chapter SSJ Blue Goku is clearly much stronger, in the following one he is clearly much weaker without any explanation. It's impossible to discuss anything if the series that's discussed doesn't make any sense...

So, do you think that SSJR Goku (Anime) isn't above SSJG Goku because Trunks was able to fight him as well (and it was before he gained his SSJ Rage !) ?

Again, where does it say that the discussion has to be about the anime version of DBS? I mean, the title of the thread is "Frost (Assault Form) vs Freeza (True Form; FnF Saga)", and the opening post of the thread says "who wins? I kind of don't remember".
Where is it said that this is an anime discussion only?

As I've already said, in the anime anything can happen, so yes, you can even argue that both Frost and Piccolo were stronger than Golden Freezer there.

Base Goku > SSJG Goku, it was stated in RoF arc. Concrete statements > theories imo.

But it's not a theory that Goku can suppress his power. So base Goku > SSJG Goku while heavily suppressed Goku <<< regular SSJ Goku <<< unsuppressed base Goku is a possibility as well, and it would make more sense than assuming that Piccolo went from being nothing against Freezer's weakest form to >>>> someone that could rival or even surpass Golden Freezer. So even in the anime it could be argued that Frost wasn't that strong.

This is what I'm talking about with "lacking in objectivity". You don't even bother with explaining why you think that Frost is somehow weaker than Freeza even before his training. And yet you think that 3rd form Frost is weaker than 3rd form Freeza in Namek period ? This is why I told you that you're lacking in objectivity when it comes to Freeza.

I've already explained that. Using the DBS manga, Goku base was Goku base, which also using both the original and the DBS manga, had a strength limit that prevented him from growing stronger past the point when he became a SSJ.
That Goku, without KK, could've at best matched Freezer's weakest form (although I don't think he ever reached 530k units in his base form), while at the same time he could trade some blows with Frost's assault form.
That's why I say Frost was weaker (that, and Piccolo performing so well against Frost, to the point he had to cheat in order to win against him).

But anyways, Manga! RoF and Manga! Super shows otherwise. 3rd form Frost > Base Goku (Champa arc) > Base Goku (RoF) > 4th form Freeza (RoF) > Mecha Freeza > 4th form Freeza (Namek arc). No statement, no implications, no theory, feats only.

Feats only, but feats from different series. In FnF (both manga and movie) Goku's base had his godly powers. In the DBS manga, base Goku didn't have those powers, and he turned into red when he had to use them, so it's not comparable what base FnF manga Goku did with what base DBS Goku did.

Really ? Which feat proves that Freeza (Namek) can beat Frost ? I'm curious.

Piccolo's performance against Frost, or base Goku performance against Frost while not using any kind of KK to reinforce him prove that.