Fusions vs Moro

GSM123

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So after 7-3 Moro copied Vegeta’s abilities, Piccolo said fusion Potara and Metamorian dance are useless now because Moro has Spirit Fission. Since hitting your enemy is needed to perform SF, does this mean Moro is relative to fusion level? Keep in mind Goku has unlocked UI Omen, so Gogeta and Vegetto might be capable of it as well.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Them dodging Moro was a possibility, but too much of a risk for Metamoran fusion with it taking up a lot of Ki if they're unlucky enough to get tagged and its not as though the Kaioshin were competent enough to have a Potara on standby for them.
 

Papasmurf

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Is Piccolo even aware of the power of Vegetto? He never saw or felt Vegetto fighting. Even with Gogeta he'd have only felt Gogeta from afar, plus for a good portion of Gogeta vs. Broly they were in a different dimension, and after Gogeta turned Blue Piccolo wouldn't have been able to sense his ki.
 

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Toyo tried to find an excuse to not introduce fusion, and it ended up being a bad one. If Vegeta's SF was useless against Moro, then what the hell can Moro do against a damn fusion? Terrible writing.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Kenshi said:
Is Piccolo even aware of the power of Vegetto? He never saw or felt Vegetto fighting. Even with Gogeta he'd have only felt Gogeta from afar, plus for a good portion of Gogeta vs. Broly they were in a different dimension, and after Gogeta turned Blue Piccolo wouldn't have been able to sense his ki.
I'd agree that he wouldn't take Vegetto into account, though I'd say it's a stretch to say he wouldn't have an idea of Gogeta's power. Even in cases where distance is implied to affect sensing, it isn't usually too a huge degree and definitely shouldn't be when SS3 Galu's Ki could be clearly sensed from a dimension outside the universe and even Base Gogeta is leagues above that. Piccolo should also have been more than capable of sensing Broly at his peak and the fact Gogeta beat him would allow him to know Gogeta was at least slightly above that.
 

Papasmurf

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I wasn't implying that Piccolo wouldn't have felt base/SSJ Gogeta's power, but he'd only have a ballpark figure of Blue Gogeta's power for obvious reasons. I guess him having good guesswork of Gogeta's power off of LSSJ Broly's power is a good argument, can't really say anything to refute that. I would still say Piccolo wouldn't have a good idea of Moro arc Gogeta's power though when PSSJB Galu (and probably Vegeta) have made great gainz in the arc and that would translate into Gogeta being stronger. So as Future Warrior said, Piccolo's statement that Gogeta and Vegetto would be useless doesn't really hold much weight when both would be far stronger now than PSSJB Gogeta was in the Broly arc.
 

Future Warrior

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I wonder if Gogeta could use UI or Blue Evolution at this point even. It would take some retard-level leaps of logic to come up with a mortal villain capable of standing up to that force of power (or in the case of the Moro arc, give a reasoning that makes 0 sense) assuming they forgo their Saiyan pride to use the dance or potara.
 

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The only way it could probably be kept as not being an instant win is if it somehow becomes such an open concept that opponents just make sure to screw up the dance or target a Potara all the time, or the plot offers scenarios where dance-compatible characters get split up. Still, that requires a lot to make it work when fusion would be a go for broke move.

It really does make it apparent, along with the convenience of Namek's Dragon Balls, why the franchise going past the Boo Arc was a mistake without some sort of counter. These plot conveniences were fine in the Boo Arc due to the care necessary in the dance and the Namekian Dragon Balls still not having been a guarantee of victory if not for wishing back Goku's Ki. Trying to keep tension high when a trip to Namek can always be done or fusion has been mastered to the extent characters barely need to try (especially with the reveal of Potara being just twice the length of Metamoran for mortals) shows these wouldn't age well after 1 arc. It really does make one appreciate GT for actually making an attempt to limit such plot devices with the Namekian Dragon Balls being useless for negating the Ultimate Dragon Balls or using them against the Evil Dragons potentially feeding into the problem, as well as Gogeta not being an option until the tail end of the series.
 

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GT had the same problem of Goten and Trunks being retards and not just fusing into Gotenks against Super #17 before he sucked up SSJ4 Galu's energy and became unstoppable though [mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Not to mention that Gogeta having the IQ of Gotenks on hard drugs and fooling around for 10 minutes despite having the ability to end Yi Xing Long in 30 seconds if he wanted to was hard to swallow with Gogeta's personality from M12, and Vegetto only dragging his fight with Gohan-Boo on to purposely be absorbed. Gogeta's stupidity here was just a plot device by Toei's dumb writers so it could lead into the Universal Genki-Dama, and achieved nothing because Yi Xing Long regained his full power by the end of the next episode anyway.

All of that is a shame because I think the Evil Dragons arc (in concept) had the greatest potential of any endgame arc of any Dragon Ball series due to the symbolism of a story that starts with the Dragon Balls ending with a conflict against Dragons. But that just got tarnished by 5 of the Dragons just being time wasters that didn't kill a single person, Yi Xing Long having the personality of a rock and managing to look like a joke when it was revealed that Si Xing Long's ultimate attack would've killed him if not for PIS causing Si to reveal his invulnerability, and Vegeta still ending up a useless turd after getting SSJ4 (which was temporary). On top of the fact that the entire universe donating their genki to Goku makes zero sense when Goku didn't even visit 10 planets in the BSDB arc, plus the Namekian Dragon Balls could've just been used to wish back Earth even if Yi Xing Long blew it up.
 

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Kenshi said:
GT had the same problem of Goten and Trunks being retards and not just fusing into Gotenks against Super #17 before he sucked up SSJ4 Galu's energy and became unstoppable though
That suggests Gotenks wouldn't have been a game changer there, with it being explicitly said in the battles with Oozaru Baby and Yi Xing Long, plus them being able to pull off the fusion against Super #17 would require him just sitting there and letting them without causing them to fumble. I agree it would've been better if they'd used it, but it's a different situation to how Gogeta is in Super as Gotenks wouldn't have been an instant win in any of the cases he could have been used.

Not to mention that Gogeta having the IQ of Gotenks on hard drugs and fooling around for 10 minutes despite having the ability to end Yi Xing Long in 30 seconds if he wanted to was hard to swallow with Gogeta's personality from M12
Gogeta wanted to remove the Minus Energy around Earth and had to annoy Yi Xing Long to the point he'd put himself into the position where it could be possible, not really any different from Vegetto's actions against Boo to fulfil his goal. It's pretty evident from how Gogeta immediately went for the kill once he'd negated all the Minus Energy surrounding Earth.
 

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It wouldn't have been so bad if Goku and Vegeta stuck with their promise at the end of Z to never use fusion again, but they are clearly willing to use it in DBS when the situation calls for it (they didn't during the ToP because of plot reasons, I guess).
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
Kenshi said:
GT had the same problem of Goten and Trunks being retards and not just fusing into Gotenks against Super #17 before he sucked up SSJ4 Galu's energy and became unstoppable though
That suggests Gotenks wouldn't have been a game changer there, with it being explicitly said in the battles with Oozaru Baby and Yi Xing Long, plus them being able to pull off the fusion against Super #17 would require him just sitting there and letting them without causing them to fumble. I agree it would've been better if they'd used it, but it's a different situation to how Gogeta is in Super as Gotenks wouldn't have been an instant win in any of the cases he could have been used.

Them not fusing into Gotenks against someone who didn't appear to be massively above SSJ Galu even after absorbing Vegeta's Final Shine Attack and just sat there absorbing SSJ4 Galu's ki blasts for a few minutes before being able to put up a fight against him is extremely stupid. Even if not a game changer, them not fusing to Gotenks when there was no SSJ4 Galu to charge back up to full power, to battle someone who was more powerful than an SSJ4 is retarded as well. It'd be like if they challenged Beerus in BoG without fusing. Plus, Super #17 buried them in rubble for a bit and sat there when they all transformed to SSJ/2, so I don't think the argument that they didn't have time to fuse stands. Even if they didn't, it's not like they couldn't have fled the battle for a bit and let Vegeta, Gohan and Oob stall #17 while they fused.

Fantastische Hure said:
Not to mention that Gogeta having the IQ of Gotenks on hard drugs and fooling around for 10 minutes despite having the ability to end Yi Xing Long in 30 seconds if he wanted to was hard to swallow with Gogeta's personality from M12
Gogeta wanted to remove the Minus Energy around Earth and had to annoy Yi Xing Long to the point he'd put himself into the position where it could be possible, not really any different from Vegetto's actions against Boo to fulfil his goal. It's pretty evident from how Gogeta immediately went for the kill once he'd negated all the Minus Energy surrounding Earth.

Gogeta clearly spontaneously thought of reversing the Minus Energy Ball's minus energy rather than him planning it, considering Galu openly said after defusing that "they shouldn't have played around so much." Vegetto also didn't have a time limit in Z (pre-Super soft retcon) either, so it's not the same situation. That, and the minus energy could've possibly been just wished away with the Earth Dragon Balls after killing Yi Xing Long, or Gogeta himself could've used the remainder of his fusion time using his positive energy to erase the mass of negative energy, which I don't think would be impossible when the Genki-Dama did just that in Episode 63.

Gogeta's personality in GT was a clear contradiction of his personality in M12. I don't see why the GT writers couldn't have just had him use Stardust Breaker to wipe out the negative energy after killing Yi (since it worked on reversing Janenba's negative energy transformation), if they weren't deliberately writing him as a retard to force the plot into a Genki Dama finish.

Future Warrior said:
It wouldn't have been so bad if Goku and Vegeta stuck with their promise at the end of Z to never use fusion again, but they are clearly willing to use it in DBS when the situation calls for it (they didn't during the ToP because of plot reasons, I guess).

In the ToP they weren't given Potaras and if they fused improperly with the dance they'd be sitting ducks for 30 minutes in a 48 minute tourney...
 

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And there was no reason for them not to be given Potara's since the Omni-Kings allowed it. Therefore, the reason was because of plot.
 

Future Warrior

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And there was no reason for them not to be given Potara's since the Omni-Kings allowed it. Therefore, the reason was because of plot.
 

Papasmurf

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In the manga Caulifla snuck the Potaras in by accident though. There wasn't a scene of the Daishinkan and Zenos stating that they'd let the rest of the contestants get a set of Potaras per team like in the anime.

Both Galu and Vegeta also wanted to surpass Perfected Blue by using this tourney as an impetus too, so it makes slight sense that they'd try and break their own limits before resorting to becoming Vegetto again.
 

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After the V Jump editor confirmed he had very little say in the plot compared to Toyotaro who still follows 90% of what AT decides for the plot, I think it's safe to say the manga is more canon than the anime by far. I base most of my arguments on the manga when it comes to DBS for that reason, even if I put the OG manga written and drawn directly by AT on a much higher pedestal for obvious reasons
 

Future Warrior

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Actually, even in the manga Zeno was entertained by the fused warrior like a child. You really think he would have a problem if the Kaioshin threw his potara towards Goku and Vegeta to become Vegetto? I don't think he would.

Pride isn't a factor here since they are willing to use teamwork and used fusion against Broli which was a fight that had far less stakes. It's just plot reasons.
 

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Future Warrior said:
Actually, even in the manga Zeno was entertained by the fused warrior like a child. You really think he would have a problem if the Kaioshin threw his potara towards Goku and Vegeta to become Vegetto? I don't think he would.

He was, but unlike in the anime Daishinkan didn't go out of his way to say, "throw them all your Potaras, we allow it." Galu and Vegeta weren't handed Potaras like in the Future Trunks arc here. I agree it's moreso an issue of pride than anything else though since Galu also refused to team up with Hit to defeat Jiren, but it was for his own self-improvement because he felt that he might be able to surpass Perfected Blue during the tournament.

Future Warrior said:
Pride isn't a factor here since they are willing to use teamwork and used fusion against Broli which was a fight that had far less stakes. It's just plot reasons.

The universe being erased and Planet Earth being destroyed and U7 being taken over by Freeza afterwards aren't really drastically different outcomes for the Z Senshi. Stakes aren't much of a factor here because either way, the Z Senshi lose their lives and their homes. And against Broly they actually had the option to teleport to Piccolo and buy time to fuse there, whereas in the ToP they had to stay on the ring, and fusing improperly would ensure their defeats. Gogeta was too much of a gamble compared to just unlocking UI. Vegetto would be another story but even then, Daishinkan didn't openly state that the other Kaioshins could bring Potaras in, Zeno just allowed Kefla to stay because he is a manchild. If Toriyama and Toyotaro willed it I guess Vegetto could've been allowed in, and I agree they probably only decided against bringing Vegetto in this arc because he already showed up in the previous arc and they wanted MUI Galu vs. Jiren to be the main attraction.
 

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