Future Saga MADNESS

[p123]

Alright people we can't have all of these thoughts and not have them backed up anymore. We agree with a set of things, yet, we don't want to put it all together.

1) Future 17's less than half power should be significantly ahead of Cyborg Freeza.

2) Many of us feel that Vegeta should have attained Super Saiyan in the future. If Vegeta was a Super Saiyan, he should be at least marginally stronger than Cyborg Freeza.

3) Considering that Gohan was there during the battle, he very likely was able to sense Vegeta/Piccolo's power. He shouldn't be fighting the Androids at a power less than what Vegeta died fighting with.


These three things, lead to some ridiculously bloated, but suggested power levels. Check out this chain of death to former power levels.


Super Saiyan Gohan (1 Arm) > Future 17 (Less than Half ) > Super Saiyan Gohan (2 Arms) > Super Saiyan Vegeta > Cyborg Freeza


I mean, there's really no other way around this.

Here's what I ended up with.


Super Saiyan Goku (Yardrat) 1,000
Super Saiyan Trunks 800
Super Saiyan Gohan (1 Arm) 700
Future 17 (Less than Half) 600
Super Saiyan Gohan (2 Arms) 500
Super Saiyan Vegeta 450
Cyborg Freeza 400
Super Saiyan Goku (Namek) 375
Freeza 350


So how do you guys feel about Goku improving 2.5x in a little under 2 years? Realistically, we've had it at 2x for some time now, adding a little bit more to make everything respectable probably will be ok, but man, it's a lot to take in at first.

 

[SSJ2]

Well, does SSJ Vegeta have to be that strong? What if he didn't improve much post Namek? Perhaps after Goku died he lost the will to train because there was no goal for him. Just a possibility.

And while I don't have a problem with Vegeta being SSJ, it's not exactly factual.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Canon Alternate Vegeta was not SSJ. If he was, it would've been mentioned.

 

[Future Warrior]

Vegeta being SS is somewhat implied actually. Trunks didn't make note of Vegeta being a Super Saiyan when coming back to the past, which imply's he was a SS during the the arrival of the androids in his timeline as well.

 

[SSJ2]

Yes, but I don't think that's a solid way to argue. Trunks noted how strong Vegeta was, almost like he didn't know his power from back then. So it's quite possible Gohan didn't tell him shit about Future Vegeta.

 

[Future Warrior]

Which could obviously be directed to his power alone, not just being a Super Saiyan. I see nothing wrong with Trunks finding out he was a Super Saiyan either from Bulma or Gohan.

 

[p123]

In the special he is a Super Saiyan and Gohan makes a note how strong Vegeta was.

 

[SSJ2]

Which could obviously be directed to his power alone, not just being a Super Saiyan. I see nothing wrong with Trunks finding out he was a Super Saiyan either from Bulma or Gohan.

Fair. Like I said I don't mind him being SSJ, but it's not factual. It is complete conjecture. When the word "could" begins your argument, it's not concrete.

 

[Future Warrior]

Cause it isn't concrete. I was just giving some points on Vegeta being a Super Saiyan, even though I generally don't have him as one, as it kinda ruins the scaling that's implied in the manga.

 

[p123]

Agreed, but let's assume he was for a minute. Now continue the discussion. How strong should he be?

 

[Pyro]

I agree with Vegeta being a Super Saiyan, but I have no problem with him not being one. I think it makes more sense for him to have at least achieved the transformation, even if he wouldn't be as strong due to losing his will with Goku's death.

Nothing implies Vegeta was stronger than 1-armed Future Gohan at the very most, so I think that's his cap. However, Gohan never implied he reached a new level that anyone but Goku had gotten to at that point, so I think even 2-armed Gohan should be above Vegeta.

 

[SSJ2]

Well, does SSJ Vegeta have to be that strong? What if he didn't improve much post Namek? Perhaps after Goku died he lost the will to train because there was no goal for him. Just a possibility.

And while I don't have a problem with Vegeta being SSJ, it's not exactly factual.

My thoughts.

 

[p123]

Ok enough with the pussyfooting around.

2 Arm Gohan > Super Saiyan Vegeta causes massive power level problems!

 

[Future Warrior]

It would be impossible for it to work if you have Vegeta considerably stronger than what Goku was at Namek. You'll have to make a lot of assumptions, like Vegeta gaining little to no gains, or 17 increasing his effort against Vegeta without Gohan ever realizing it.

 

[Pyro]

Ok enough with the pussyfooting around.

2 Arm Gohan > Super Saiyan Vegeta causes massive power level problems!

How? Gohan only acts like Goku was the benchmark, not even bothering with an honorable mention to Vegeta. And when 17 and Gohan fight, neither of them bring up Vegeta as if he was worthwhile.

 

[p123]

It makes Trunks 2x Freeza.

 

[Future Warrior]

Namek Freeza - 360
SS Goku - 375
Mecha Freeza - 400
SS Trunks - 800
SS Goku - 1,000
SS Gohan (2 arms) - 600
SS Gohan (1 arm) - 750
SS Vegeta - 500

This could work, though a little too bloated for my taste.

 

[SSJ2]

Is there a yuge issue with Trunks being 2x? It seems outrageous, but it's not contradictory. The initial reaction to his ki was crazy, even for Gohan who sensed Namek Goku.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

The gap between 2 arm and 1 arm Future Gohan looks awfully small there. I think it would be better to lower the gap between Mecha Freeza and SSj Vegeta to leave more space for Future Gohan.

 

[SSJ2]

Like I said, Vegeta doesn't even need to be ahead of Mecha Freeza if you want to reduce the bloat. Just have him at Super Saiyan at a level slightly above his Namek level.