Gap between SSJ God Goku (initial) and Vegetto (Buu Saga)

[Natasha Romanoff]

I think every comment in the initial debut of SSJG makes it appear like Goku had expectations of SSJ God, but at the end it surpassed it greatly, this is also shown considering that after acknowledging that not even fusing with Vegeta, he asked himself if that SSJ God could be achieved through training.

So, what would be your numbers for:

Vegetto (Buu Saga) = 1

Vegetto (BoG/pre ritual) = ?

Expected SSJ God = ?

Initial SSJ God Goku (BoG) = ?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

At the very least:

SSJ3 Vegetto (Pre ritual): 1
SSJG Goku (Expected): 2
SSJG Goku (Initial): 2.5

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

At the very least:

SSJ3 Vegetto (Pre ritual): 1
SSJG Goku (Expected): 2
SSJG Goku (Initial): 2.5

And how would Vegetto (Buu Saga) fit on this?

I think Goku is estimating Vegeta to be on his level with the only exception of him having SSJ3 when he said that Vegetto would be powerless against Beerus (estimated fp). SSJ3 Goku (BoG) might be more than 10x times above his Buu Saga self considering that he was also stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

 

[Cirno777]

I think every comment in the initial debut of SSJG makes it appear like Goku had expectations of SSJ God, but at the end it surpassed it greatly, this is also shown considering that after acknowledging that not even fusing with Vegeta, he asked himself if that SSJ God could be achieved through training.

So, what would be your numbers for:

Vegetto (Buu Saga) = 1

Vegetto (BoG/pre ritual) = ?

Expected SSJ God = ?

Initial SSJ God Goku (BoG) = ?

Goku saying that even him & Vegeta's fusion wouldn't stand a chance isn't really a good statement, this was stated with him having no knowledge of God's power, so he can't compare them accurately. Goku however says this initially after transforming:

Spoiler

And this:

Spoiler

Beyond his imagination should include his Potara fusion, so ultimately, I believe God > Potara fusion (BoG) does ring true. This could potentially also encompass a SSJ3 Vegetto.

This is true for the manga also:

Spoiler

So...

Vegetto (Boo Saga) = 1

Boohan is weaker than Vegetto, but I'll just put him as the same for simplicity.

Boohan = 1

Bootenks 1-

Gohan = 0.5

Gotenks = 0.5-

I think Vegeta's shock at Goku being taken out in two hits indicates that SSJ3 Goku is comparable to Ultimate Gohan. After all, what would it matter if Goku was taken out so easily if Gohan could put up a much better fight than him?

So SSJ3 Goku = 0.5

And now I'm just realising I may have to go over the whole Boo Saga to explain my difference between SSJ3 Goku & Vegetto. Well, if you want I will, but it's an 800x difference.

That would make BoG Vegetto 0.5 x 800 = 400

SSJ3 Vegetto would be 400^2, which is 160,000.

So...


Vegetto (Buu Saga) = 1

Vegetto (BoG/pre ritual) = 400 [SSJ3 is 160,000]

Expected SSJ God = ? No clue tbh, could be anything, but he was hell bent on utilising God so it should at least be 160,000

Initial SSJ God Goku (BoG) = 160,000+




Concerning the manga, there's nothing that really puts Goku above Gohan, but if we take into account the Yo Son Goku special which was supervised by AT:
Goku's SSJ should be at least comparable to base Gotenks (maybe SSJ depending on how you interpret it) based on his performance against Avocado. This is also like 1 or 2 years before BoG, so this is lowballed. You can read it here https://mangadex.org/chapter/cbf04bc4-08c2-4952-a9e2-bd1fb88cf898/30

So going back to my numbers

Vegetto (Boo Saga) = 1

Boohan = 1

Bootenks 1-

Gohan = 0.5

Gotenks = 0.5-

Base Gotenks = 0.00125

SSJ Goku (BoG) = 0.00125

SSJ3 Goku (BoG) = 0.01 (0.00125 x 8)

Vegetto (BoG/pre ritual) = 8 [SSJ3 is 3,200]

Expected SSJ God = 3,200

Initial SSJ God Goku (BoG) = 3,200+

What u got?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Cirno77
Well, just feeling the intensity behind the punches would be enough to make an estimation. Krillin could make an estimate of Perfect Cell destroying Vegeta, I don't get why this would be anything different.

Goku basically felt as in an entirely different body which is also comment that make it sounds like that SSJ God > Vegetto, because he previously was Vegetto.

Goku was intended to be the strongest among the Z Fighters as per Goten and Beerus' statement of Enraged Vegeta doing better than Goku.

I don't know how both what I've got:

Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku = 0.106

SSJ3 Gotenks = 1

Buu Saga Base Vegetto = 1

Ultimate Gohan = 1.2

BoG SSJ3 Goku (lowballed) = 1.25

Buu Saga SSJ Vegetto = 5

BoG Base Vegetto (lowballed) = 11

Buu Saga SSJ2 Vegetto = 10

Buu Saga SSJ3 Vegetto = 12.5

BoG SSJ Vegetto = 58

BoG SSJ2 Vegetto = 117

BoG SSJ3 Vegetto = 146

(I follow nerfed multipliers for Fusions)

Expected SSJG Goku = 150

Initial SSJG Goku = around 180 or 200

The multiplier is smaller in the future, but that's another topic.

 

[Cirno777]

@Cirno77
Well, just feeling the intensity behind the punches would be enough to make an estimation. Krillin could make an estimate of Perfect Cell destroying Vegeta, I don't get why this would be anything different.

At this point in time, Goku doesn't know jack squat about God, he only hopes it'll be enough. On it's own, I think it's janky, I'd mention that the actual God surpassed anything he could've imagined (SSJ3 Vegetto & his expectations of what God might be).

Okay, you know what, I was basically nitpicking, I apologise.

Goku basically felt as in an entirely different body which is also comment that make it sounds like that SSJ God > Vegetto, because he previously was Vegetto.

Maybe. All he said was "It's like it's not my own body!", which is literally what Vegetto is too. But him accidentally flying straight past Beerus speaks to how the power of the actual God is beyond what he imagined it to be, which should be at least on par with an SSJ1-3 Vegetto.

Goku was intended to be the strongest among the Z Fighters as per Goten and Beerus' statement of Enraged Vegeta doing better than Goku.

I agree.

I don't know how both what I've got:

Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku = 0.106

SSJ3 Gotenks = 1

Buu Saga Base Vegetto = 1

Ultimate Gohan = 1.2

BoG SSJ3 Goku (lowballed) = 1.25

Buu Saga SSJ Vegetto = 5

BoG Base Vegetto (lowballed) = 11

Buu Saga SSJ2 Vegetto = 10

Buu Saga SSJ3 Vegetto = 12.5

BoG SSJ Vegetto = 58

BoG SSJ2 Vegetto = 117

BoG SSJ3 Vegetto = 146

(I follow nerfed multipliers for Fusions)

Expected SSJG Goku = 150

Initial SSJG Goku = around 180 or 200

The multiplier is smaller in the future, but that's another topic.

Hmm. Okay, so we definitely don't have the same scales lmao.

So you think God was like a 64,000x multiplier? The way I have it set up has God at a 128,000,000x multiplier, because I have SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ Gotenks (Pre) < Base Gotenks (Post) < SSJ3 Gotenks/Evil Boo < Gohan < Bootenks < Boohan < Vegetto, & I use the full SSJ multipliers for fusions so you can probably picture the massive gulf that creates between base Goku & SSJ3 Vegetto lol.

Why do you subscribe to diminished fusion multipliers? And idk if the God multiplier after BoG is really in the scope of this thread, but why is that reduced going forward?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

And how would Vegetto (Buu Saga) fit on this?

I don’t know. Have Goku and Vegeta been confirmed to be any stronger than in the Boo Saga? As in, directly compared. Scaling via Gohan isn’t reliable because Gohan doesn’t train. AT said he picked this post Boo Saga era for the movie because everyone was at their strongest.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Maybe. All he said was "It's like it's not my own body!", which is literally what Vegetto is too. But him accidentally flying straight past Beerus speaks to how the power of the actual God is beyond what he imagined it to be, which should be at least on par with an SSJ1-3 Vegetto.

Vegetto doesn't describe himself as anything different from Goku/Vegeta and Goku knows and have records of him being Vegetto:

Spoiler

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P7.4
Context: after Vegetto splits up inside of Boo
Goku: “Hey what are you doing? Don’t take off your Potara! I think we’ll be able to merge again once we leave Boo’s body! It’s prob-probably the bad air in here that’s keeping us from merging…!”

Hmm. Okay, so we definitely don't have the same scales lmao.

So you think God was like a 64,000x multiplier? The way I have it set up has God at a 128,000,000x multiplier, because I have SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ Gotenks (Pre) < Base Gotenks (Post) < SSJ3 Gotenks/Evil Boo < Gohan < Bootenks < Boohan < Vegetto, & I use the full SSJ multipliers for fusions so you can probably picture the massive gulf that creates between base Goku & SSJ3 Vegetto lol.

Why do you subscribe to diminished fusion multipliers? And idk if the God multiplier after BoG is really in the scope of this thread, but why is that reduced going forward?

Yes, approximately that. But yeah, I don't heighten Gotenks to an extreme stretch.

I have SSJ Gotenks Pre a little bit behind Fat Buu, but SSJ Gotenks Post massively above Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku.

Also I have SSJ3 Gotenks stronger than Super Buu.

Fusion multipliers seems to be nerfed considering that if they're not, the outcome of Gotenks would be extremely big. Base Gotenks alone is higher than SSJ Goten and Trunks and it's impossible for a 50x multipliers to work with.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I don’t know. Have Goku and Vegeta been confirmed to be any stronger than in the Boo Saga? As in, directly compared. Scaling via Gohan isn’t reliable because Gohan doesn’t train. AT said he picked this post Boo Saga era for the movie because everyone was at their strongest.

Well, Toriyama didn't forget about Gohan's performance against Super Buu as there is an statement coming from Piccolo about Gohan being taken down that easy, so yes, there's no way to deny that BoG SSJ3 Goku is the supreme Z fighter even above Ultimate Gohan.

Spoiler

Vegeta stated that Goku became the undisputed number 1 in the universe, but he keeps training, that gives us the image of BoDBS Goku > Buu Saga Goku.

Of course, SSJ2 Vegeta is not stronger than Ultimate Gohan, that's insane.

 

[Dagon]

I don’t know. Have Goku and Vegeta been confirmed to be any stronger than in the Boo Saga? As in, directly compared. Scaling via Gohan isn’t reliable because Gohan doesn’t train. AT said he picked this post Boo Saga era for the movie because everyone was at their strongest.

Vegeta says he won't settle for being Number 2 compared to Goku's Number 1. So that can easily be Goku > Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta says he won't settle for being Number 2 compared to Goku's Number 1. So that can easily be Goku > Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan.

Well, Toriyama didn't forget about Gohan's performance against Super Buu as there is an statement coming from Piccolo about Gohan being taken down that easy, so yes, there's no way to deny that BoG SSJ3 Goku is the supreme Z fighter even above Ultimate Gohan.

Spoiler

View attachment 2169

Vegeta stated that Goku became the undisputed number 1 in the universe, but he keeps training, that gives us the image of BoDBS Goku > Buu Saga Goku.

Of course, SSJ2 Vegeta is not stronger than Ultimate Gohan, that's insane.

But Vegeta also called Goku #1 in the Boo Saga. This speech was a callback to that scene.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Which I'm not denying. The point is to prove that BoS Goku > Buu Saga Goku.

Either way, how do you answer of the fact that Piccolo's shock about Gohan's defeat against Beerus?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Which I'm not denying. The point is to prove that BoS Goku > Buu Saga Goku.

Either way, how do you answer of the fact that Piccolo's shock about Gohan's defeat against Beerus?

But that doesn’t prove anything. Goku is in the same spot he was in the Boo Saga, the strongest pure Saiyan. We see in the first episode he’s been busy working, so I doubt he had that much time to train.

I think Piccolo’s reaction actually suggests Gohan is fairly powerful compared to Goku. We just know he’s not strong enough to defeat Goku in two hits.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

But that doesn’t prove anything. Goku is in the same spot he was in the Boo Saga, the strongest pure Saiyan. We see in the first episode he’s been busy working, so I doubt he had that much time to train.

I think Piccolo’s reaction actually suggests Gohan is fairly powerful compared to Goku. We just know he’s not strong enough to defeat Goku in two hits.

*The strongest pure saiyan which gets stronger with training

However, in Episode 2, he is shown training during the scene of Vegeta calling Goku the strongest saiyan.

How can we infer that? Piccolo never knew about Goku's defeat against Beerus, only Vegeta does.

Either way, I think we are changing the topic a whole lot, it was supposed to be Goku vs Vegetto not Goku vs Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Right. I think Goku hasn’t improved much because Beerus says he’s weaker than Freeza, so he could only improve so much. He’s still training a bit sure, but it mostly just explains why he’s not rusty.

In my current list I have SSJG between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Vegetto, but that’s just an extreme lowball for the manga not having the SSJG > Fusion line. I’m thinking he should be a lot higher, since there’s no need for Anime and Manga to be so different by this point.

Also, I’m trying to use normal multipliers for fusion.

Goku: 100
~ SSJ3: 40,000

SSJ Gotenks (Post): 80,000
~ SSJ3: 640,000

Ultimate Gohan: 900,000
~ Rusty in BoGs: 45,000 or a bit less (Rusty but still strong. It’s been 4 years, why would he only lose power in the 1 year leading to RoF?)

Super Boo: 600,000
~ +Gotenks: 1,240,000
~ +Gohan: 1,500,000

Vegetto: 100,000
~ SSJ: 5,000,000
~ SSJ3: 40,000,000

SSJG Goku (Expected): 50,000,000 ~ 80,000,000
~ Real, initial: 100,000,000

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@GreatSaiyaman123
Well, I think we greatly differ on that one... because I have 1st Post Rosat Base Vegeta like of 80% Namek Freeza on my new list... and the Cell Games Saiyans a whole lot above that as they were stronger than Grade 3 Trunks and Grade 3 increases massively the power of the user (Pre Rosat Goku surpassing Semi Cell is proof of that), and as well, during the Cell Games, Cell states that no matter how strong Vegeta or Trunks had become, they're simply not on Goku's level. This also discarding the Buu Saga implications.

When it comes to Beerus' statement, I get it as a suppressed base Goku being below Freeza as after analyzying him superficially he got to that conclussion. But, even after, Goku transforms into SSJ, he didn't consider him good enough to do that until he show his movements which he consider as a task that is "the best he can do". In the manga, I remember that only SSJ2 Goku could. Beerus' statement is not reliable imo.

But yeah, sometimes the Base Saiyans vs Freeza debate seems to be like fans arguing with Toriyama, because he has his emperor in great esteem either on the Cell or Buu sagas in which, one-shotting him is to make allusion of being a great deal. But, what I can't blame is that is pretty much impossible for Base Goku to be weaker than Freeza but his SSJ3 to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

BOG happens 6 months after Kid Buu's defeat:

Spoiler

Still, I don't get how Goku would be weaker than Gohan in BoG if Goten considers him the strongest in the universe while being fairly aware of his best condition and having no problem on saying that Gotenks was weaker than Gohan. Also, that Beerus praises Vegeta due to giving him more entertainment than the saiyan that he fought in North Kai planet.

Gohan even in 7 years could still go SSJ2, I don't think Gohan being weaker than his Buu Saga Ultimate self was intended in BoG as we (unlike the Buu Saga) don't have any statements of him getting weaker and as opposed as that we have Piccolo getting shocked at Gohan being defeated that easily.

 

[Cirno777]

Vegetto doesn't describe himself as anything different from Goku/Vegeta and Goku knows and have records of him being Vegetto:

Spoiler

View attachment 2166View attachment 2167View attachment 2168

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P7.4
Context: after Vegetto splits up inside of Boo
Goku: “Hey what are you doing? Don’t take off your Potara! I think we’ll be able to merge again once we leave Boo’s body! It’s prob-probably the bad air in here that’s keeping us from merging…!”

Goku only said "It's like it's not my own body!", that's all. Vegetto's body is not Goku's body either, he's comprised of Vegeta as well as Goku.

Yes, approximately that. But yeah, I don't heighten Gotenks to an extreme stretch.

I have SSJ Gotenks Pre a little bit behind Fat Buu, but SSJ Gotenks Post massively above Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku.

Yeah, SSJ3 Goku >~ Fat Boo ~ SSJ Gotenks is what I think it is.

You have SSJ Gotenks (Post) > SSJ3 Goku, but what about Base Gotenks (Post)?

Also I have SSJ3 Gotenks stronger than Super Buu.

Let's not start this again lmao

Fusion multipliers seems to be nerfed considering that if they're not, the outcome of Gotenks would be extremely big. Base Gotenks alone is higher than SSJ Goten and Trunks and it's impossible for a 50x multipliers to work with.

Nothing contradicts Gotenks (& fusion in general) being that enormously strong.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Goku only said "It's like it's not my own body!", that's all. Vegetto's body is not Goku's body either, he's comprised of Vegeta as well as Goku.

Goku and Vegeta both are Vegetto, they're basically the same person. When King Kai says that Beerus is on a whole other league than any other Goku ever fought, is he talking about Goku individually or his opponents in general even including while he is fused? It's clear that he is talking in general, because Vegetto doesn't differ from either Goku or Vegeta.

Spoiler

Curious as to how you don't talk about the fact that Goku does remember about their (him and Vegeta's) separation.

Yeah, SSJ3 Goku >~ Fat Boo ~ SSJ Gotenks is what I think it is.

You have SSJ Gotenks (Post) > SSJ3 Goku, but what about Base Gotenks (Post)?

Base Gotenks Post is only equal to Fat Buu, who Goku needs to go all-out to defeat.

Let's not start this again lmao

I don't know what makes you disagree if Gohan was plenty of confidence of Gotenks doing the task of defeating Super Buu, but if you don't want to talk about it, then I'll respect that.

Nothing contradicts Gotenks (& fusion in general) being that enormously strong.

Fat Buu isn't even 400x times stronger than Base Goku, who ain't even close to SSJ Goten and Trunks. With the SEG multipliers (which I disagree due to SSJ2 being that low).

SSJ3 Goku = 400
Fat Buu = anywhere in between 100 and 400 (let's say 300)
SSJ2 Goku = 100
SSJ Goku = 50
Base Goku = 1

SSJ Gotenks = 300
Base Gotenks = 6
SSJ Trunks or Goten = much less than 3

SSJ Gotenks can't dispatch Fat Buu in a minute, though, with a haxxed ability he more than likely can in a greater amount of time.

Also, SSJ Gotenks vs Super Buu seems closer than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu, even though, Buu is near to SSJ3 Gotenks.

 

[Cirno777]

Goku and Vegeta both are Vegetto, they're basically the same person. When King Kai says that Beerus is on a whole other league than any other Goku ever fought, is he talking about Goku individually or his opponents in general even including while he is fused? It's clear that he is talking in general, because Vegetto doesn't differ from either Goku or Vegeta.

Vegetto by definition differs from Goku & Vegeta, he is a FUSION of Goku AND Vegeta. Goku =/= Vegeta, therefore Goku =/= Vegetto.

Do you think Goku & Vegetto have the same body?

Spoiler

View attachment 2187

Curious as to how you don't talk about the fact that Goku does remember about their (him and Vegeta's) separation.

I just don't see how that implies they have the same body.

Base Gotenks Post is only equal to Fat Buu, who Goku needs to go all-out to defeat.

I don't know what makes you disagree if Gohan was plenty of confidence of Gotenks doing the task of defeating Super Buu, but if you don't want to talk about it, then I'll respect that.

We've already gone in circles talking about that, but we never could agree on it. I just think it'd be a repeat, that's all.

Fat Buu isn't even 400x times stronger than Base Goku, who ain't even close to SSJ Goten and Trunks. With the SEG multipliers (which I disagree due to SSJ2 being that low).

SSJ3 Goku = 400
Fat Buu = anywhere in between 100 and 400 (let's say 300)
SSJ2 Goku = 100
SSJ Goku = 50
Base Goku = 1

SSJ Gotenks = 300
Base Gotenks = 6
SSJ Trunks or Goten = much less than 3

SSJ Gotenks can't dispatch Fat Buu in a minute, though, with a haxxed ability he more than likely can in a greater amount of time.

Also, SSJ Gotenks vs Super Buu seems closer than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta vs Fat Buu, even though, Buu is near to SSJ3 Gotenks.

What part contradicts?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Cirno777
In the anime, Goku states that he could've finished off for good Kid Buu when he had become Vegetto:

Spoiler

In the manga, Goku says that he as Vegetto could've done it in one blast:

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he need to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: "Dammit~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. ...Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!."

Okay, if you don't want to discuss Gotenks vs Super Buu, then so be it.

The gap between SSJ Gotenks and Super Buu seems smaller than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta and Fat Buu and Base Goku is nowhere near close to SSJ Goten or Trunks, yet SSJ Gotenks is still weaker than Fat Buu, despite of Buu being weaker than SSJ3 Goku.

Although, nerfed multipliers is just a possibility, not something absolute.