Gap MSSJ Goku/MSSJ Gohan at Cell Games

[sei'taer]

That and he'd lost a lot of energy. He wanted to beat goku's 100% when he was weakened.

 

[kriss-]

Speed and strength are not the only relevant factors in a fight. Such is the scenario with a rematch between Cell and Goku. Despite Gohan and Goku being generally the same strength, Gohan is much quicker but much less skilled; making him next to useless.

 

[ahill1]

Gohan was noticeable stronger too.

 

[kriss-]

So much more powerful that Cell preferred fighting Goku then Gohan.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Because he thought Gohan was dead...

And Gohan acting like a wuss didn't help.

 

[kriss-]

Cell only under-estimated Gohan cuz he was a child,

such ez

 

[Evil Vegeta]

This doesn't change the fact that he admitted Goku was right, but wrong about Gohan being able to beat himself.

So, Cell>Gohan>Goku.

 

[kriss-]

We've been through this one-hundred times already.

Cell's statement does not imply or suggest that Gohan was stronger then Goku. He's more-or-less the same and a-lot more powerful then Cell or anybody thought he could be, because he's a child. But there is no definitive statement that makes what your arguing a fact until Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Him being a child isn't relevant, though. Gohan was just that powerful.

It does. Goku said Gohan was stronger than the both of them. If Goku wasn't bluffing like Cell said, only to exclude himself from the comparison, it means Gohan is above Goku. Also, the chapter title.

 

[kriss-]

Gohan being a child was made extremely clear from Goku, Piccolo, Krillen and even Cell. It's made extremely clear.

All Cell stated was that Goku wasn't completely lying, but then again... he wasn't completely telling the truth, the implication is there. Gohan is powerful as a child, but he doesn't necessarily have to be eons above Goku and Cell.

The chapter title was proven to be a past tense reference.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Where did Cell ever say Gohan was powerful for a kid?

Cell explained the part Goku was inaccurate about: Gohan defeating Cell. Goku was 2 steps behind Cell, so Cell was above him. This brings us back to Gohan being above Goku.

Not really. The title of the chapter signified that Gohan was the one who surpassed Goku. He did.

 

[kriss-]

Cell believes that he'll kill Gohan immediately, he states this after Gohan powers up, and he considers Gohan nothing more then a game. Cell is an advent Ki sensor so the fact remains that he was under-estimating him for a very specific reason.

Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

Goku explains that he's relying on Gohan's dormant power and in addition he maintains the reasoning that Gohan has actually kept up with them. Gohan retorts by stating that he expected more from Goku, but that's not synonymous with saying that Gohan is stronger then him.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that… not how strong I presently am.”

This statement comes after-wards and proves my train of thought completely. I added the under-lined part to further elaborate on Gohans train of thought in addition to Goku's.


All that is stated is that Goku was 1 or 2 steps behind Cell, and find out that it was because of speed:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

That's all that's stated, nothing more.

Surpassed is a past tense of surpass.

As we've concluded, there is no definitive evidence that Gohan is multifolds above Goku. If there is... I've yet to see it.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Cell believes that and is shown to be wrong. Gohan's Chi didn't go down one bit after Cell's attack. One thing that needs to be said is Gohan is doing everything he can to avoid fighting. That's the only reason why he appeared to be nothing special.

That's because Goku's best was unimpressive to Gohan. When Goku went full-power and blew everyone away, Gohan thought everyone was odd for being excited. Gohan is able to see that Goku's effort was really unimpressive. Vegeta thinks this revelation is not only impossible, but also a lie. What this shows is Gohan is the only one capable of seeing Goku's true power for what is..unlike the others.

It's simple. Gohan needed Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Cell. This requirement isn't necessary for Goku because Gohan's already stronger than him. To beat Cell, they need Gohan's dormant power.

That wasn't stated. Cell had the upper-hand. Even Roshi pointed this out despite only watching the battle on tv:

Bulma: “Wha—aat, that was so close! He was just a step away!”
Kame-sennin: “…No he wasn’t…It’s true that it looks like they’re having a good match, but…unlike Goku, Cell still has room for composure left…[ ] ...Goku can’t win…What’s more, to me it looks as if he knows that but is still fighting…I don’t know what he’s thinking…”

Goku was inferior to Cell in power and speed. In h2h situations, Goku always came out looking worse.

Gohan was only using his speed at that point. He didn't even try to attack Cell. This is why the speed is commented on. Gohan made Cell up his speed because he's stronger and faster than the last opponent that couldn't make Cell change his speed.

The word "surpassed" is used to denote superiority. This has happened throughout the entire manga. Why would AT write a title about Goku being surpassed right before he displays Super Saiyan Gohan's power? Because the story is plainly saying the warrior (Gohan) is superior to Goku.

 

[kriss-]

Gohan had visible battle damage but his Chi didn't decrease and all that proves is that he surprised Cell and is stated to be tougher then Cell thought. Tough means durable.

Well you can definitely see it that way, but despite being capable of what he was inside the Rosat, Gohan firmly believed Goku would be much stronger then he is, because he always is. This doesn't mean that Gohan is actually stronger.

Cell had no need to increase his power to damage Gohan, only his speed. It's never stated that he increased his strength because Goku and Gohan are comparable. But Gohan is just much faster, that's the only clear distinction being made.

In the scenarios that Mike provided, they all proved to be past tense references but acknowledged superiority at some point. In this particular scenario, Gohan has surpassed Goku in the past but it's a past tense reference because nothing blatantly states that it presently occurred.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

That makes no sense. Gohan's been weaker than Goku since the Saiyan saga. Every time they were around one another, Goku was superior except the Raditz fight.. AT's a very simple writer, dude. The chapter title is clear as day. No hidden message necessary.

 

[ChulpaBatman]

Well Speed is related to Power according to Vegeta on Namek when fighting Cui. At equal levels I think someone can be faster than another fighter but thats not the case here. Goku had a real disadvantage with Cells speed and power during the fight. He only managed to hurt Cell with well thought out energy attacks. If we go by gaps I would say there was a 10% gap between Goku and Cell.

Gohan outdoes Powered up Cell in Speed handily. However, its not so much he cant see Gohans movements. Just enough speed for Gohan to dodge all of his attacks without much difficulty. Similar to how Cell was able to dodge Gokus attacks but the difference was Cell was on the offensive and Gohan was defensive. So my difference between them is also 10%. Cell only mentions increasing his speed to full power. So Cell while still a bit behind Gohan in Ki and raw strength is now much to quick for Gohan. Gohan was also not fighting back. He did not have the mindset to fight which s clear also. When Gohan does fight back and kicks cell it knocks him down and hurts him.

So this means that Goku is around 20% behind Gohan. This makes sense as Gohan questioned why everyone thought Gokus 50% was so great and then at the Cell games thought Goku was still holding back. In Gohans mind Goku should have been ahead of himself by a good margin and thus should have been giving Cell more trouble.


Goku(Gohan Expected): 120
Gohan: 100
Cell: 90
Goku: 81

 

[DBZAOTA482]

1.25x gap and anything more is blatant Gohan fanboyism.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

But Gohan is > Perfect Cell (full speed) > Perfect Cell (vs Goku) > Goku right?

 

[Six Trails]

Kid Gohan > PM Vegeta > Goku (expected progress) > CG Goku

Good luck fitting that in a 1.25x gap.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

1.4x should be the minimum gap if this is right "Gohan is > Perfect Cell (full speed) > Perfect Cell (vs Goku) > Goku".
I'm using the Vegeta vs KKx2 Goku gap btw