Goku, Gohan, Kefla

[GSM123]

I wanna settle this shit.

Is Goku stronger than them or not? We have to direct statements that directly contradict each other: One from Vados saying Kefla is unmatched, other from Kuririn saying Gohan could surpass Kefla. For all i know this issue is pretty much a pick and chose.

Is there a possibility one of the statements is a Vizism? Is there any evidence beyond those statements? If Vados/Kuririn is right, what's the reason for Kuririn/Vados to be randomly wrong here?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

In my opinion and this is just my opinion Vados is more reliable than Kuririn considering she's on a level above even the Gods. She's got the perspective.

Although Kuririn might have just meant surpass Goku in the sense of always staying-ahead of him. He could always be leagues ahead of him but doesn't chose. He could once and for all surpass him forever, but he doesn't care about martial-arts like Goku does.

 

[GSM123]

One could argue Kuririn's statement was to set up the gag (Kuririn mentions Gohan quitting his job to train and #18 yells at him), though i'd be pretty hypocrital to use this argument myself because i take Gotenks' gag scenes seriously.

You know, this sort of reminds me of the Base Saiyans vs Freeza stuff. Old evidence vs new evidence. Death of the author vs Word of God. Toyotaro definitely has PSSJB Goku > All in mind as shown through Kuririn, but is the author's intrepretation supreme? Should everyone read it on the same way as him? To quote a great man's words:

Now, when you read, don't just consider what the author thinks. Consider what you think.

 

[Future Warrior]

I never saw Gohan and Kefla being stronger than Goku after reading the chapter, and I don't think my interpretation is wrong if you ask me (not that I care much about power scaling these days).

IIRC Vados merely stated she ''may'' be outmatched, not that she is, so in other words that statement isn't infallible. Possibly to set tension.

On the other hand we have direct comparison made by Krillin that Goku is still the top dog in the team. You could assume he can't sense god ki and that maty be true, but you'll have a hard time explaining why Toyotaro would waste entire panels of Krillin just talking out of his ass. It's there for a reason, and that is to tell us the amount of latent power Gohan has within him and can potentially get stronger than his father. So you got two options:

1. Gohan really is weaker than his father at the moment or...
2. Death of the author

To further emphasize my argument, Gohan steps in to fight Kefla and asks Goku to take on Jiren instead. Probably not much evidence of anything but it could imply the status-quo hasn't changed.

The way Vados describes the fusion imply's Kefla merely has the same power as Kale but with Caulifa's battle senses. Now this may not go hand in hand with what was previously established with potara, it must be understood that the LSSJ can power-up beyond it's own limitations within the form itself, but comes with a dire consequence as exemplified when she starts losing against the pride troopers. When combined with Caulifla she can utilize that power without the stain on her body.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Kuririn can't sense God Ki, so his opinion on how Gohan compares to his dad is probably purely due to status-quo and therefore means nothing.

 

[Void]

No point of inserting the statement if it's meaningless.

Goku isn't worried about Kefla. Jiren isn't worried about Kefla. Nobody points out Gohan and Kefla had surpassed Goku or Vegeta. There's one vague statement from Vados suggesting the possibility of Kefla being the top dog, and at the end Kefla herself says she can't compete with U7.

 

[GSM123]

I never saw Gohan and Kefla being stronger than Goku after reading the chapter, and I don't think my interpretation is wrong if you ask me (not that I care much about power scaling these days).

IIRC Vados merely stated she ''may'' be outmatched, not that she is, so in other words that statement isn't infallible. Possibly to set tension.

On the other hand we have direct comparison made by Krillin that Goku is still the top dog in the team. You could assume he can't sense god ki and that maty be true, but you'll have a hard time explaining why Toyotaro would waste entire panels of Krillin just talking out of his ass. It's there for a reason, and that is to tell us the amount of latent power Gohan has within him and can potentially get stronger than his father. So you got two options:

1. Gohan really is weaker than his father at the moment or...
2. Death of the author

To further emphasize my argument, Gohan steps in to fight Kefla and asks Goku to take on Jiren instead. Probably not much evidence of anything but it could imply the status-quo hasn't changed.

The way Vados describes the fusion imply's Kefla merely has the same power as Kale but with Caulifa's battle senses. Now this may not go hand in hand with what was previously established with potara, it must be understood that the LSSJ can power-up beyond it's own limitations within the form itself, but comes with a dire consequence as exemplified when she starts losing against the pride troopers. When combined with Caulifla she can utilize that power without the stain on her body.

"May" because not everyone has shown 100% of what they were capable off yet. Jiren is still nowhere near FP and just after Vados' statement is stated Gohan reveals power on pair with Kefla's.

I'm thinking death of the author wouldn't be too much of a scretch here. That isn't the first time someone was overrated due to their importance. See how Freeza was treated in the Cell, and even the Boo Arc and BoGs. Though i can't find a reason to see who's right here... It's not like the evidence is overwhelming on either side.

I hope next chapter they settle this, or that one of the statements is Viz fucking up. Someone could ask Herms on Twitter about it or something. If FagettoEX just hadn't locked the translation thread...

I find doubtful that Kefla is = Kale. Captain Kahseral said Kefla's moves are leagues above Kale's. More like the bulk of Kefla's power came from Kale.

Kuririn can't sense God Ki, so his opinion on how Gohan compares to his dad is probably purely due to status-quo and therefore means nothing.

Vegeta couldn't sense #19... How relevant is his opinion on 19's power?

No point of inserting the statement if it's meaningless.

Goku isn't worried about Kefla. Jiren isn't worried about Kefla. Nobody points out Gohan and Kefla had surpassed Goku or Vegeta. There's one vague statement from Vados suggesting the possibility of Kefla being the top dog, and at the end Kefla herself says she can't compete with U7.

He was worried about LSSJ Kale.

And it isn't vague. It straight up says Kefla may be unmatched.

 

[Pyro]

This is my viewpoint on the matter, although with the addition of Casserole's comments, I'd upgrade Gohan and Kefla from >= Kale to >> Kale (and lower 2nd power-up Kale below Jiren).

Ultimate Gohan = SSj Kefla >~ Jiren (vs Goku/Hit) >> BSSj Kale (power-up 2) > CSSjB Goku ~ Hit ~ Golden Freeza > BSSj Kale (power-up 1) > BSSj Kale (initial) >>> Golden Freeza (fooling around) >>> Base Kale > SSj Caulifla

 

[ahill1]

Well, if you take Vados' statement at face value, wouldn't that imply Kefla is stronger than the power Jiren has shown so far, which is high enough to fend off Goku CSSJB without problems?

 

[Future Warrior]

"May" because not everyone has shown 100% of what they were capable off yet. Jiren is still nowhere near FP and just after Vados' statement is stated Gohan reveals power on pair with Kefla's.

Problem is you can't really prove that. Also, it's worth noting that a lot of times these lines are used to create hype or tension, artificially created in order to sell the reader into a specific scene or character. This chapter is dedicated to the Saiyan girls after all.

To give you an example, promotional material stating that DBS Broly is the ''strongest'' can still be called into question due to the aforementioned techniques being used to advertise for the movie. Or your local resturaunt that's low-budget and in debt tells you they have the best pizza in town.

I'm thinking death of the author wouldn't be too much of a scretch here. That isn't the first time someone was overrated due to their importance. See how Freeza was treated in the Cell, and even the Boo Arc and BoGs. Though i can't find a reason to see who's right here... It's not like the evidence is overwhelming on either side.

Not really comparable unless you can find me something that states Freeza is stronger than Cell and Majin Buu.

At best you could say Toyotaro is just a bad writer (tbf he is, this chapter sucked ass).

I hope next chapter they settle this, or that one of the statements is Viz fucking up. Someone could ask Herms on Twitter about it or something. If FagettoEX just hadn't locked the translation thread...

Not gonna happen since Gohan and Kefla already got eliminated.

I find doubtful that Kefla is = Kale. Captain Kahseral said Kefla's moves are leagues above Kale's. More like the bulk of Kefla's power came from Kale.

Kale became dysfunctional by the time she fought the pride troopers.

 

[Void]

No point of inserting the statement if it's meaningless.

Goku isn't worried about Kefla. Jiren isn't worried about Kefla. Nobody points out Gohan and Kefla had surpassed Goku or Vegeta. There's one vague statement from Vados suggesting the possibility of Kefla being the top dog, and at the end Kefla herself says she can't compete with U7.

He was worried about LSSJ Kale.

And it isn't vague. It straight up says Kefla may be unmatched.
[/quote]

May be unmatched. Not is unmatched. Vados' statement was disproven the moment she engaged Gohan.

Again, Kuririn's statement comes a chapter after Vados', and Kefla says if she couldn't beat Gohan then she had no real chance against U7. Kale fought PSSB Goku, so Kefla should have a general idea of how strong he is. Why didn't she point out that Gohan was far above his father or any other U7 fighter like Veggie or Freeza?

And as far as Kale's power goes I remember Vegeta pointing out that her power was uncontrolled and there was no need for him to step in. He says it pretty plainly as if Kale wasn't an opponent he would struggle with.

Honestly I think Kefla and Gohan > PSSB Goku is a reach.

 

[Void]

No point of inserting the statement if it's meaningless.

Goku isn't worried about Kefla. Jiren isn't worried about Kefla. Nobody points out Gohan and Kefla had surpassed Goku or Vegeta. There's one vague statement from Vados suggesting the possibility of Kefla being the top dog, and at the end Kefla herself says she can't compete with U7.

He was worried about LSSJ Kale.

And it isn't vague. It straight up says Kefla may be unmatched.

May be unmatched. Not is unmatched. Vados' statement was disproven the moment she engaged Gohan.

Again, Kuririn's statement comes a chapter after Vados', and Kefla says if she couldn't beat Gohan then she had no real chance against U7. Kale fought PSSB Goku, so Kefla should have a general idea of how strong he is. Why didn't she point out that Gohan was far above his father or any other U7 fighter like Veggie or Freeza?

And as far as Kale's power goes I remember Vegeta pointing out that her power was uncontrolled and there was no need for him to step in. He says it pretty plainly as if Kale wasn't an opponent he would struggle with.

Honestly I think Kefla and Gohan > PSSB Goku is a reach.

 

[GSM123]

Problem is you can't really prove that. Also, it's worth noting that a lot of times these statements are used to create hype or tension, artificially created in order to sell the reader into a specific scene or character. This chapter is dedicated to the Saiyan girls after all.

To give you an example, promotional material stating that DBS Broly is the ''strongest'' can still be called into question due to the aforementioned techniques being used to advertise for the movie. Or your local resturaunt that's low-budget and in debt tells you they have the best pizza in town.

The same applies to Kuririn's statement. As the main character and one of the last remaining fighters standing, it's only natural Goku would be hyped as a big deal. This isn't the first time he gets more hyped than he should, after all.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

And Imperial Pizza is the best in town, okay? 2 Pizzas by the price of 1 > All.

Not really comparable unless you can find me something that states Freeza is stronger than Cell and Majin Buu.

At best you could say Toyotaro is just a bad writer (tbf he is, this chapter sucked ass).

Not really, but i can find a statement that says nobody surpassed Freeza until Cell arrived...
: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”

And one that implies Goku can't one shot Freeza.
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”

Not gonna happen since Gohan and Kefla already got eliminated.

I mean settle it for Goku with more statements about him being the strongest. Something like Gohan saying his father is stronger than him or something.

Kale became dysfunctional by the time she fought the pride troopers.

She was still at her peak for a while when she transformed though, and her rampage got everyone's attention.

May be unmatched. Not is unmatched. Vados' statement was disproven the moment she engaged Gohan.

Again, Kuririn's statement comes a chapter after Vados', and Kefla says if she couldn't beat Gohan then she had no real chance against U7. Kale fought PSSB Goku, so Kefla should have a general idea of how strong he is. Why didn't she point out that Gohan was far above his father or any other U7 fighter like Veggie or Freeza?

And as far as Kale's power goes I remember Vegeta pointing out that her power was uncontrolled and there was no need for him to step in. He says it pretty plainly as if Kale wasn't an opponent he would struggle with.

Honestly I think Kefla and Gohan > PSSB Goku is a reach.

There wouldn't even be a doubt if Goku was stronger than her, given how his power was already known. It's a pointless statement if she's < Goku.

She didn't say this. The actual statement was that Universe 7 is unmatched and it's her fate to be erased. The fact she doesn't acknowledge the Universe 7's power until after the fight with Gohan might as well imply the opposite of what you're saying.

Because she was out of her mind, making her fight pretty much like an angry bull, and was already past her peak, as a team who struggled against Base Goku almost ringed her out.

 

[Future Warrior]

The same applies to Kuririn's statement. As the main character and one of the last remaining fighters standing, it's only natural Goku would be hyped as a big deal. This isn't the first time he gets more hyped than he should, after all.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

I think you're confused. The only thing that's ''hyped'' is Gohan's potential not Goku, that's how the line is meant to be interpreted. However the fact that it's never said he was already more powerful speaks volumes.

Also, I'm surprised it's never brought up that after Krillin says Gohan can possibly become stronger than Goku he would have been contradicted by Beerus or Whis by saying ''No, he already surpassed him''.

Not really, but i can find a statement that says nobody surpassed Freeza until Cell arrived...
: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”

That doesn't say nobody surpassed Freeza until Cell.

And one that implies Goku can't one shot Freeza.
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”

That doesn't imply Goku can't one shot Freeza.

She was still at her peak for a while when she transformed though, and her rampage got everyone's attention.

It's stated her moves were easy to read and was losing power by the second, flaws that became absent once she fused with Caulifla.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Vegeta couldn't sense #19... How relevant is his opinion on 19's power?

Difference is Vegeta was at a level where he could still view #19's attacks, whereas Kuririn logically shouldn't be at the level to track Gohan and Kefla when he couldn't track SSJ Galu and Frost two arcs ago, unless you've changed your opinion on where ToP Kuririn stands.

 

[Papasmurf]

It's stated that Kefla's attacks are on a whole another level compared to prior to the fusion (also note that they saw her one-shot Anilaza among other things), and CSSJB Galu was startled by Kale's power increases which leads me to think Kefla still being under him is a stretch. Meanwhile Kuririn overrating Galu because of the status quo makes a good amount of sense considering he also expected Galu to be able to take care of Fat Boo pre-SSJ3 reveal despite seeing Gohan dwarf him in power 7 years prior. There's evidence on both sides, but I'm honestly not too convinced that a powered up version of Kale who was already powerful enough to startle CSSJB Galu and was in competing range of Golden Freeza prior to powering up further is under CSSJB level.

Ofc, it's easier to just accept Toyotaro being a terrible writer which he is

 

[Future Warrior]

It's stated that Kefla's attacks are on a whole another level compared to prior to the fusion (also note that they saw her one-shot Anilaza among other things), and CSSJB Galu was startled by Kale's power increases which leads me to think Kefla still being under him is a stretch. Meanwhile Kuririn overrating Galu because of the status quo makes a good amount of sense considering he also expected Galu to be able to take care of Fat Boo pre-SSJ3 reveal despite seeing Gohan dwarf him in power 7 years prior. There's evidence on both sides, but I'm honestly not too convinced that a powered up version of Kale who was already powerful enough to startle CSSJB Galu and was in competing range of Golden Freeza prior to powering up further is under CSSJB level.

Ofc, it's easier to just accept Toyotaro being a terrible writer which he is

I still have a hard time believing he would write those lines if they were meaningless which is why I don't buy the ''Krillin can't sense god ki'' which really isn't the point. That's bad writing. We may as well have authors write complete meaningless rabble that have no relevance to the story they're trying to tell.

Which is why I'd say it's better for people who don't consider what Krillin says to view that line as a ''take it or leave it'' and that Toyotaro doesn't know how to write his own story.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Toyotaro I don't think goes strictly by the when a character says so it's a fact rule, if one of the french interviews isn't fake then he said even Kaio-Shin saying that Vegetto-Blue might have surpassed Bills might or might not be true, just saying that Kaio-Shin said it, but at the moment it remains to be seen for sure.

 

[Future Warrior]

Kaioshin wasn't sure himself if Vegetto was stronger which is where the ambiguity lies, and even when disregarding that Toyo could have easily said that to not discontinue discussions on who would win in one of the most infamous dream matches.

 

[Papasmurf]

With Hit already being seen to be on a similar footing to CSSJB Galu a few chapters prior, and Kale being close enough to CSSJB tier to startle Goku I just can't see a powered up version of her still being under Galu, Vegeta or Toppo, especially when Champa and Vados acted like they have a chance now with Kefla in the picture when Hit lost horribly. If I see further indication that CSSJB > Kefla besides a questionable statement from Krillin sure, I'll just accept that Kefla is basically just Caulifla's skill added to Kale and barely any stronger and therefore weaker than CSSJB, but there's just too much situational evidence against it.