How strong is Present Zamasu?

[Goku9001]

If anything, I'm not disagreeing with this. Yes, he preserved the SSJ God Powers and remained within himself, but that's his internal power, as any other form of the SSJ actually is. Also, the quote you're giving it also can be explained by how he preserved the transformation and why he can make access of it, those are distinct form of view and what you say isn't an absolute answer.

Right. Goku is stated to have integrated its power into his very being so it's accessible by his regular and Super Saiyan forms. We are told later on that Goku didn't have the ability to use god ki until his training with Whis. Since the power is integrated into his being and does not "expire", then that would mean that Goku can use that power without god ki.

Intellectually dishonest right off the batt, okay. No, I believe more in actions than simple words, Enraged Vegeta proved himself better than his regular forms (not his divine forms, though) from afterwards and so on.

No. This is a common storytelling strategy Toriyama has always used in Dragon Ball. Characters are able to sense ki which gives us a fundamental understanding of how powerful characters are in the series. SSJ Vegeta surpassed SSJ Goku and we wouldn't need any actions to support that. The author expected us to believe it because that's what the narrative is leading us to believe. Same thing here.

That's something that have a strong narrative charge against, as the whole Episode 57 have, so no, that isn't evidence. Goku through anger alone became stronger than Freeza by going SSJ, so the anger concept has always been there. Super is still a continuation of DBZ and have to follow its logic, it's not a completely different continuation or that has nothing to do with canon, so no.

Well, we were discussing about how much valid is SSJ3 Gotenks feat is and how Toei portrays it, but if you don't have any counter, then I'm fine with that.

Doesn't matter. They allowed Trunks to go from Super Saiyan 2 to Super Saiyan Blue which means he can get as powerful as he wants at the writers' whim. That being said, Super Saiyan was a specific power that could only be obtained by rage. Outside of that, it's not a common trait that Saiyans other than Gohan could undergo. That much is obvious.

Sure. But the ToP stuff is a strong narrative change so that shouldn't be used as evidence. That would be your logic.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Right. Goku is stated to have integrated its power into his very being so it's accessible by his regular and Super Saiyan forms. We are told later on that Goku didn't have the ability to use god ki until his training with Whis. Since the power is integrated into his being and does not "expire", then that would mean that Goku can use that power without god ki.

Goku is getting more adapted to the form as the fight with Beerus keeps continuing. He can also tell that Beerus' punches are getting stronger and so on, so I don't think he is completely new on the divine ki thing. Goku can make use of any transformation power in his base form if he wants to.

Even after learning in depth the divine ki concept, he still get hurt by lasers and bullets, so no, that power isn't something he have whenever he breathes.

No. This is a common storytelling strategy Toriyama has always used in Dragon Ball. Characters are able to sense ki which gives us a fundamental understanding of how powerful characters are in the series. SSJ Vegeta surpassed SSJ Goku and we wouldn't need any actions to support that. The author expected us to believe it because that's what the narrative is leading us to believe. Same thing here.

Which I don't disagree with, but Enraged Vegeta's power was temporary. In later instances, we have seen how they aren't nearly as powerful as they were portraying to be; therefore, it's a concept that has given no continuation. On top of that, at that point they just relied on base and SSj Blue, and afterwards, the rest of transformations were immplemented.

Doesn't matter. They allowed Trunks to go from Super Saiyan 2 to Super Saiyan Blue which means he can get as powerful as he wants at the writers' whim. That being said, Super Saiyan was a specific power that could only be obtained by rage. Outside of that, it's not a common trait that Saiyans other than Gohan could undergo. That much is obvious.

Sure. But the ToP stuff is a strong narrative change so that shouldn't be used as evidence. That would be your logic.

They allowed SSJR Goku Black and Zamasu to get blinded by grenades, which speaks slow of their reaction speed, so no. Or they can get stronger but not by an exponential degree, after all, it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to achieve a powerup enough to compete with a monster like Super Perfect Cell if his power is limited to SSJ; when it comes to Enraged Goku vs Goku Black, perhaps the gap between them before wasn't that big.

I think you confuse "charge" with "change", and no, the writers are still the same, they just don't keep a consistent work and do whatever they want.

 

[Goku9001]

Goku is getting more adapted to the form as the fight with Beerus keeps continuing. He can also tell that Beerus' punches are getting stronger and so on, so I don't think he is completely new on the divine ki thing. Goku can make use of any transformation power in his base form if he wants to.

Even after learning in depth the divine ki concept, he still get hurt by lasers and bullets, so no, that power isn't something he have whenever he breathes.

No. I'm saying that when Goku visits Vegeta and Whis, Goku had to train to be able to use god ki. That is stated and shown to us. Since the power of Super Saiyan God was integrated into his very being but he had no control over god ki, then it stands to reason that what his Super Saiyan form displayed against Beerus was never a result of retaining its god ki. No one is saying that Goku can't be suppressed. Goku being wounded in a suppressed or ordinary state doesn't mean that power isn't accessible to him if he so chooses.

Which I don't disagree with, but Enraged Vegeta's power was temporary. In later instances, we have seen how they aren't nearly as powerful as they were portraying to be; therefore, it's a concept that has given no continuation. On top of that, at that point they just relied on base and SSj Blue, and afterwards, the rest of transformations were immplemented.

Which is irrelevant. Goku knows that Enraged Vegeta is a power that Vegeta is capable of whether it's dormant or not and Vegeta exceeds those expectations. I can agree that there may be inconsistencies regarding the Base Saiyans' strength but we are evaluating what the intentions of the writers were when Goku battled Present Zamasu. Whatever comes after involving the ToP is a different discussion.

They allowed SSJR Goku Black and Zamasu to get blinded by grenades, which speaks slow of their reaction speed, so no. Or they can get stronger but not by an exponential degree, after all, it wouldn't make sense for Vegeta to achieve a powerup enough to compete with a monster like Super Perfect Cell if his power is limited to SSJ; when it comes to Enraged Goku vs Goku Black, perhaps the gap between them before wasn't that big.

I think you confuse "charge" with "change", and no, the writers are still the same, they just don't keep a consistent work and do whatever they want.

We are not going anywhere if we apply "Death of the Author" and assume whatever they were doing is wrong. It's arbitrary. Preferences aside and taking the evidence as it is, Trunks clearly displayed signs of significant growth during the Zamasu Saga. Aside from that, I'm not seeing how Black and Zamasu being caught in grenades is relevant to whether or not Saiyans can grow exponentially stronger. Saiyans couldn't grow stronger through rage in Z yet it's a defining trait for Saiyans in Super. That's something you haven't addressed yet so mentioning Z as a means to establish any sort of powerscaling in Super is a fruitless argument.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

No. I'm saying that when Goku visits Vegeta and Whis, Goku had to train to be able to use god ki. That is stated and shown to us. Since the power of Super Saiyan God was integrated into his very being but he had no control over god ki, then it stands to reason that what his Super Saiyan form displayed against Beerus was never a result of retaining its god ki. No one is saying that Goku can't be suppressed. Goku being wounded in a suppressed or ordinary state doesn't mean that power isn't accessible to him if he so chooses.

Goku retaining the SSj God is product of him conserving the transformation, it's not like he can't make access of it whenever he wants, he has already immplemented the SSj God power into his very being, therefore he can make use in his base form or accessing directly to SSj God.

He still has a regular base form after all; the one that can be hurt by lasers (although, the bullet scene is going too much, though).

Which is irrelevant. Goku knows that Enraged Vegeta is a power that Vegeta is capable of whether it's dormant or not and Vegeta exceeds those expectations. I can agree that there may be inconsistencies regarding the Base Saiyans' strength but we are evaluating what the intentions of the writers were when Goku battled Present Zamasu. Whatever comes after involving the ToP is a different discussion.

Spoiler

Goku just says Vegeta might be stronger than him. What expectations does Goku have of Vegeta to begin with?

Even then, his ki is nothing special; he can't be sensed from Beerus planet even after many sagas, while SSJ Kid Trunks can. Super is the same continuation, it stands no reason for them to change the rules, unless you're using arbitrary reasoning.

We are not going anywhere if we apply "Death of the Author" and assume whatever they were doing is wrong. It's arbitrary. Preferences aside and taking the evidence as it is, Trunks clearly displayed signs of significant growth during the Zamasu Saga. Aside from that, I'm not seeing how Black and Zamasu being caught in grenades is relevant to whether or not Saiyans can grow exponentially stronger. Saiyans couldn't grow stronger through rage in Z yet it's a defining trait for Saiyans in Super. That's something you haven't addressed yet so mentioning Z as a means to establish any sort of powerscaling in Super is a fruitless argument.

So it's logical that they can be blinded by grenades? Also are you paying attention to your claims or just answer in a random way? No, if you want to make valid that increase, then you are forced to accept the chapter as a whole, otherwise you are cherrypicking.

Even then, what do you expect for Vegeta to do against Super Perfect Cell? One-shot him? Do you also expect to some character to state that his ki got stronger from base? Is that what you're suggesting?

 

[Goku9001]

Goku retaining the SSj God is product of him conserving the transformation, it's not like he can't make access of it whenever he wants, he has already immplemented the SSj God power into his very being, therefore he can make use in his base form or accessing directly to SSj God.

He still has a regular base form after all; the one that can be hurt by lasers (although, the bullet scene is going too much, though.

Except he does not. It's confirmed during his training with Whis that he had to learn how to use god ki with Vegeta. Furthermore, when Goku first unveils Super Saiyan Blue against Frieza, we get a transition back to Kaio's planet where Kaiosama states "so now Goku can use Super Saiyan God without the ritual?" suggesting that Goku couldn't use god ki without the ritual prior.

That's just suppression. I don't even know how this is relevant nor does it discredit my point. Goku can still suppress himself but his mortal ki is much greater now. That wouldn't prevent him from suppressing himself to an ordinary level.

Goku retaining the SSj God is product of him conserving the transformation, it's not like he can't make access of it whenever he wants, he has already immplemented the SSj God power into his very being, therefore he can make use in his base form or accessing directly to SSj God.

He still has a regular base form after all; the one that can be hurt by lasers (although, the bullet scene is going too much, though).

Spoiler

View attachment 1607View attachment 1608

Goku just says Vegeta might be stronger than him. What expectations does Goku have of Vegeta to begin with?

Even then, his ki is nothing special; he can't be sensed from Beerus planet even after many sagas, while SSJ Kid Trunks can. Super is the same continuation, it stands no reason for them to change the rules, unless you're using arbitrary reasoning.

I've already gone over this. Goku knows Vegeta's latent power surpasses his own, is aware that Vegeta has been training under Whis for 6 months, and is now shocked by Vegeta's power which means that it's much greater than what Goku had expected. Vegeta >= Goku > Expected Vegeta > Enraged Vegeta in layman's terms. You haven't provided any rebuttal.

This is cherrypicking because we already know prior that Base Goku and Vegeta outstripped Super Saiyan Gohan among other things. I think I know where you're getting at but where is the evidence that Goku even tried to sense Vegeta? By your logic, he should have been able to sense Beerus and Whis to reach Beerus' planet but since he did not, Beerus and Whis must be weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks.

So it's logical that they can be blinded by grenades? Also are you paying attention to your claims or just answer in a random way? No, if you want to make valid that increase, then you are forced to accept the chapter as a whole, otherwise you are cherrypicking.

Even then, what do you expect for Vegeta to do against Super Perfect Cell? One-shot him? Do you also expect to some character to state that his ki got stronger from base? Is that what you're suggesting?

It really doesn't matter to me. The grenades blinded them so it happened. I don't just retcon things out of existence or insert my own biases just because I don't like the author's work. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks went from being below Super Saiyan 2 Goku to near Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta. It doesn't matter to me whether or not that makes sense. I just take it as it is.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Except he does not. It's confirmed during his training with Whis that he had to learn how to use god ki with Vegeta. Furthermore, when Goku first unveils Super Saiyan Blue against Frieza, we get a transition back to Kaio's planet where Kaiosama states "so now Goku can use Super Saiyan God without the ritual?" suggesting that Goku couldn't use god ki without the ritual prior.

That's just suppression. I don't even know how this is relevant nor does it discredit my point. Goku can still suppress himself but his mortal ki is much greater now. That wouldn't prevent him from suppressing himself to an ordinary level.

So, yes, is what I'm saying he has to perfect the control of the divine ki to access to that power. Yes, Kaio is comparing Goku during BoG (prior to the ritual) to his RoF self, also if we want to include RoF it is said that Goku surpassed his SSj God Power by going SSj Blue, which means that he previously doesn't.

Spoiler

Goku was suppressed going back to his base form after getting hit by the laser, he was in his usual base form. That just confirms my point. XD

I've already gone over this. Goku knows Vegeta's latent power surpasses his own, is aware that Vegeta has been training under Whis for 6 months, and is now shocked by Vegeta's power which means that it's much greater than what Goku had expected. Vegeta >= Goku > Expected Vegeta > Enraged Vegeta in layman's terms. You haven't provided any rebuttal.

This is cherrypicking because we already know prior that Base Goku and Vegeta outstripped Super Saiyan Gohan among other things. I think I know where you're getting at but where is the evidence that Goku even tried to sense Vegeta? By your logic, he should have been able to sense Beerus and Whis to reach Beerus' planet but since he did not, Beerus and Whis must be weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks.

You have a strange obsession with using words such as "discredit" or "rebuttal", which makes me believe that you are trying to do that to me, while I'm actually not trying to do that to you. XD

Either way, the Cell and Buu Saga, already have Goku mocking Vegeta due to he is still stronger than him, as well as Vegeta acknowledging that he always steps ahead of him and that doesn't change, so Vegeta's latent power to surpass Goku is unsupported in Goku's mind.

Yes, they have outstripped a Gohan that even after training with Piccolo is confirmed to be weaker than his Cell Games self, nothing relevant. That would count as something only if Goku hadn't sensed SSj Blue Vegeta in the same chapter, so no, the logic doesn't follow.

It really doesn't matter to me. The grenades blinded them so it happened. I don't just retcon things out of existence or insert my own biases just because I don't like the author's work. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks went from being below Super Saiyan 2 Goku to near Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta. It doesn't matter to me whether or not that makes sense. I just take it as it is.

Okay, going by your concept, then is logical to assume that Bulma is faster than light just because she says so, everything that the producers tell to the audience and what is shown is valid. XD

Spoiler

 

[Goku9001]

So, yes, is what I'm saying he has to perfect the control of the divine ki to access to that power. Yes, Kaio is comparing Goku during BoG (prior to the ritual) to his RoF self, also if we want to include RoF it is said that Goku surpassed his SSj God Power by going SSj Blue, which means that he previously doesn't.

Spoiler

View attachment 1614

You don't understand what I'm saying. When he fought Beerus, he did not have access to divine ki outside of the god ritual. This was proven later on during Goku's training with Whis where Goku had to learn how to use god ki alongside Vegeta. Kaiosama's statement is merely used to corroborate that. Kaiosama didn't expect Goku to use god ki without the ritual because he could not.

Therefore, Super Saiyan Goku did not have god ki. You have yet to prove it. The statement in question clearly is suggesting that Blue is a greater transformation than God, not that Blue was required to surpass some arbitrary level.

So, yes, is what I'm saying he has to perfect the control of the divine ki to access to that power. Yes, Kaio is comparing Goku during BoG (prior to the ritual) to his RoF self, also if we want to include RoF it is said that Goku surpassed his SSj God Power by going SSj Blue, which means that he previously doesn't.

Spoiler

View attachment 1614

Goku was suppressed going back to his base form after getting hit by the laser, he was in his usual base form. That just confirms my point. XD

You have a strange obsession with using words such as "discredit" or "rebuttal", which makes me believe that you are trying to do that to me, while I'm actually not trying to do that to you. XD

Either way, the Cell and Buu Saga, already have Goku mocking Vegeta due to he is still stronger than him, as well as Vegeta acknowledging that he always steps ahead of him and that doesn't change, so Vegeta's latent power to surpass Goku is unsupported in Goku's mind.

I don't know what you are arguing anymore. Goku can suppress his ki to an ordinary level regardless of how high his full power is. Goku being wounded while in a suppressed state doesn't say anything about his full power.

Sure, but Vegeta actually surpassed Goku in Battle of Gods and again in RoF which proves that Super does in fact operate under different rules than Z.

Okay, going by your concept, then is logical to assume that Bulma is faster than light just because she says so, everything that the producers tell to the audience and what is shown is valid. XD

Spoiler

View attachment 1615

It's a figurative statement. When the writers had Bulma claim she would "fix it faster than the speed of light", they're just making it clear that Bulma would fix the time machine quickly and not that she could literally fix it faster than Goku and Vegeta could even speak. Anyone with half a brain could work that out.

I'm not sure why this is relevant seeing as how the rules governing the Saiyan power boosts in Super are not figurative. Sorry that you feel that Base Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks is wrong and that you have more authority than those who wrote the scene. But unless you have concrete evidence that invalidates the feat beyond making assumptions about the writers' intentions, you don't have a case.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

You don't understand what I'm saying. When he fought Beerus, he did not have access to divine ki outside of the god ritual. This was proven later on during Goku's training with Whis where Goku had to learn how to use god ki alongside Vegeta. Kaiosama's statement is merely used to corroborate that. Kaiosama didn't expect Goku to use god ki without the ritual because he could not.

Of course, Goku couldn't transform into SSj God during Battle of Gods without the ritual that is difference in between before and now. From afterwards sagas, we know that Goku could've used the SSj God, because he preserved it.

Therefore, Super Saiyan Goku did not have god ki. You have yet to prove it. The statement in question clearly is suggesting that Blue is a greater transformation than God, not that Blue was required to surpass some arbitrary level.

But the red flame of the power remained within him. I could agree with you, but the statement doesn't say this is a new transformation or a new form that surpass or is stronger than SSj God, if that were the case, then, yes, there should be no escape of that, but it clearly isn't the case.

I don't know what you are arguing anymore. Goku can suppress his ki to an ordinary level regardless of how high his full power is. Goku being wounded while in a suppressed state doesn't say anything about his full power.

Sure, but Vegeta actually surpassed Goku in Battle of Gods and again in RoF which proves that Super does in fact operate under different rules than Z.

Well, I comprehend you, you seem to have a tough time conecting ideas and/or paying attention. Either way, Goku being damaged proves that he can't make use of those powers in a 24/7 state, unless he choose to.

In RoF, nothing is said about Vegeta surpassing Goku, Goku bring the possibility that he might have surpassed him initially and then talk proudly when he said that Vegeta didn't need the help from others to achieve the SSj God. Not because Vegeta surpassed Goku in BoG miraclously it means that he will always surpass him, in the Goku Black Saga, after training in the Rosat he surpassed him for an apparently large gap in equal forms, but was still fairly outclassed by Kaioken Goku, similar to how Vegeta surpassed Goku in the Androids saga, it wasn't that big of a gap and more likely a pretty small one.

It's a figurative statement. When the writers had Bulma claim she would "fix it faster than the speed of light", they're just making it clear that Bulma would fix the time machine quickly and not that she could literally fix it faster than Goku and Vegeta could even speak. Anyone with half a brain could work that out.

I'm not sure why this is relevant seeing as how the rules governing the Saiyan power boosts in Super are not figurative. Sorry that you feel that Base Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks is wrong and that you have more authority than those who wrote the scene. But unless you have concrete evidence that invalidates the feat beyond making assumptions about the writers' intentions, you don't have a case.

Well, you don't realize irony, I guess...

I would accept it if it wasn't for Base Vegeta's ki not being sensed in Beerus' planet, whereas SSJ Kid Trunks could. It is also, possible that Gotenks could have actually grown weaker, but yeah, it is needed to put arbitrarily one arc that is a copy from what we already seen in Z against something that happened on one of the main sagas for the wank sake. As well as we have Good Buu being relevant to compete with the SSJ forms, already makes that notion as something incredible at best.

 

[Goku9001]

Of course, Goku couldn't transform into SSj God during Battle of Gods without the ritual that is difference in between before and now. From afterwards sagas, we know that Goku could've used the SSj God, because he preserved it.

But the red flame of the power remained within him. I could agree with you, but the statement doesn't say this is a new transformation or a new form that surpass or is stronger than SSj God, if that were the case, then, yes, there should be no escape of that, but it clearly isn't the case.

Right. Goku had no access to god ki without the ritual until he trained with Whis. When he fought Beerus, he didn't get to train with Whis yet and the ritual expired. Therefore, there is no god ki. Your counterargument doesn't really go against this. Obviously, Goku could obtain Super Saiyan God once he learned how to use god ki. It's why Vegeta did. How this proves that Super Saiyan Goku had god ki against Beerus in a time when he hadn't trained with Whis and wasn't part of the ritual anymore is beyond me.

No one is saying it is a new transformation. Whis flat-out states that Goku returned back to being a "normal Super Saiyan". What we are saying is that the power of Super Saiyan God had become intrinsic to Goku such that his Super Saiyan form had now been elevated to that level.

Well, I comprehend you, you seem to have a tough time conecting ideas and/or paying attention. Either way, Goku being damaged proves that he can't make use of those powers in a 24/7 state, unless he choose to.

In RoF, nothing is said about Vegeta surpassing Goku, Goku bring the possibility that he might have surpassed him initially and then talk proudly when he said that Vegeta didn't need the help from others to achieve the SSj God. Not because Vegeta surpassed Goku in BoG miraclously it means that he will always surpass him, in the Goku Black Saga, after training in the Rosat he surpassed him for an apparently large gap in equal forms, but was still fairly outclassed by Kaioken Goku, similar to how Vegeta surpassed Goku in the Androids saga, it wasn't that big of a gap and more likely a pretty small one.

What I'm saying is that this doesn't prove that Goku never retained the power of Super Saiyan God since suppression says nothing about a user's full power.

I'm saying that Super had no issues with allowing Vegeta to surpass Goku twice even though Z made it abundantly clear that Goku would always pull ahead. There is a recurring trend in which Vegeta is Goku's rival in both the anime and manga throughout the majority of the story despite that being out of the picture in Z. Regardless, how this plays into Vegeta (Post-Training) >= Goku > Expected Vegeta > Enraged Vegeta, no idea. You lost me.

Well, you don't realize irony, I guess...

I would accept it if it wasn't for Base Vegeta's ki not being sensed in Beerus' planet, whereas SSJ Kid Trunks could. It is also, possible that Gotenks could have actually grown weaker, but yeah, it is needed to put arbitrarily one arc that is a copy from what we already seen in Z against something that happened on one of the main sagas for the wank sake. As well as we have Good Buu being relevant to compete with the SSJ forms, already makes that notion as something incredible at best.

Well, it's hard to see something that's not there.

Did Goku ever sense Beerus and Whis on their planet? It's really strange that something so arbitrary is a valid metric for assessing one's power. Toriyama only did it once with Super Saiyan 3 Goku and never again. Why that overrides an explicit beatdown on SSJ3 Gotenks is very strange.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Right. Goku had no access to god ki without the ritual until he trained with Whis. When he fought Beerus, he didn't get to train with Whis yet and the ritual expired. Therefore, there is no god ki. Your counterargument doesn't really go against this. Obviously, Goku could obtain Super Saiyan God once he learned how to use god ki. It's why Vegeta did. How this proves that Super Saiyan Goku had god ki against Beerus in a time when he hadn't trained with Whis and wasn't part of the ritual anymore is beyond me.

No one is saying it is a new transformation. Whis flat-out states that Goku returned back to being a "normal Super Saiyan". What we are saying is that the power of Super Saiyan God had become intrinsic to Goku such that his Super Saiyan form had now been elevated to that level.

You are losing the notion in this, I was referring to the SSj Blue mainly, it was said to be his new power that surpass the SSj God. Goku since BoG can access to SSj God, wheter it would be limited or not that's a different issue.

What I'm saying is that this doesn't prove that Goku never retained the power of Super Saiyan God since suppression says nothing about a user's full power.

I'm saying that Super had no issues with allowing Vegeta to surpass Goku twice even though Z made it abundantly clear that Goku would always pull ahead. There is a recurring trend in which Vegeta is Goku's rival in both the anime and manga throughout the majority of the story despite that being out of the picture in Z. Regardless, how this plays into Vegeta (Post-Training) >= Goku > Expected Vegeta > Enraged Vegeta, no idea. You lost me.

Even then, it's on you to prove that Goku was suppressed rather than being in his casual base form.

Yes, but your claims oppose to most of the facts presented, I gave you examples on how Vegeta always surpassing Goku is never the case on Super, as well as when he surpassed Goku in Z wasn't by a large amount, but you can only avoid those cases to keep your intellectually dishonest. In Goku's mind, Vegeta will always be below of him.

Well, it's hard to see something that's not there.

Your lacking of common sense worries me a lot.

Did Goku ever sense Beerus and Whis on their planet? It's really strange that something so arbitrary is a valid metric for assessing one's power. Toriyama only did it once with Super Saiyan 3 Goku and never again. Why that overrides an explicit beatdown on SSJ3 Gotenks is very strange.

Why does it matter if he can sense an abismally low level such as SSj Blue Vegeta? If we talk about the Buu Saga, he did it with SSJ3 Goku, Fat Buu, Super Buu, Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan. Because Vegeta can't be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, but weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks.

 

[Goku9001]

You are losing the notion in this, I was referring to the SSj Blue mainly, it was said to be his new power that surpass the SSj God. Goku since BoG can access to SSj God, wheter it would be limited or not that's a different issue.

You are sidestepping the issue. Since Super Saiyan Goku was elevated to the level of God and there is evidence that guarantees that he did not have god ki at that point in time, then that means that Goku's own Super Saiyan form was on the level of God. This isn't complicated. I think it's pretty clear that the statement in question asserts that Blue surpasses God as a transformation, not literally in terms of surpassing some arbitrary level of power. That's the whole point behind the Z Senshi's reaction to Blue Goku, to establish that Blue is the next step up from God.

Even then, it's on you to prove that Goku was suppressed rather than being in his casual base form.

Yes, but your claims oppose to most of the facts presented, I gave you examples on how Vegeta always surpassing Goku is never the case on Super, as well as when he surpassed Goku in Z wasn't by a large amount, but you can only avoid those cases to keep your intellectually dishonest. In Goku's mind, Vegeta will always be below of him.

It wouldn't matter. This a matter of semantics because at the end of the day, you agree that Goku was suppressed to some arbitrary level and suppression says nothing about his full power. Vegeta deliberately lets his guard down so that Kuririn could nearly kill him with a generic ki blast says nothing about Vegeta's full power and it certainly doesn't invalidate his power already nearing First Form Frieza.

Whis also stated that Goku had a tendency to let his guard down which was a glaring weakness for him no matter how strong he became. The narrative already acknowledges Goku's increased growth in power but suggests that it's a weakness for him nonetheless. You're still caught up in the logistics of it but you haven't addressed why Vegeta (RoF) >= Goku > Expected Vegeta > Enraged Vegeta was not the case.

Your lacking of common sense worries me a lot.

Why does it matter if he can sense an abismally low level such as SSj Blue Vegeta? If we talk about the Buu Saga, he did it with SSJ3 Goku, Fat Buu, Super Buu, Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan. Because Vegeta can't be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, but weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks.

You're right. He can't be weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks if objectively defeated SSJ3 Gotenks outright. That should be enough to show you how flawed your logic is. Aside from that, you haven't addressed how Beerus and Whis have also not been sensed from Beerus' planet. Surely they must be weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

You are sidestepping the issue. Since Super Saiyan Goku was elevated to the level of God and there is evidence that guarantees that he did not have god ki at that point in time, then that means that Goku's own Super Saiyan form was on the level of God. This isn't complicated. I think it's pretty clear that the statement in question asserts that Blue surpasses God as a transformation, not literally in terms of surpassing some arbitrary level of power. That's the whole point behind the Z Senshi's reaction to Blue Goku, to establish that Blue is the next step up from God.

No, Goku is talking about SSj Blue in the preview he never refers mainly to the new form or transformation with power that even exceeds/surpass God, as he never made mention of those, he is talking about its power in general.

It wouldn't matter. This a matter of semantics because at the end of the day, you agree that Goku was suppressed to some arbitrary level and suppression says nothing about his full power. Vegeta deliberately lets his guard down so that Kuririn could nearly kill him with a generic ki blast says nothing about Vegeta's full power and it certainly doesn't invalidate his power already nearing First Form Frieza.

Yes, Goku was suppressed, but that doesn't indicate that he isn't using his usual base form which doesn't have any internal power. Vegeta doesn't have any internal power, as he hasn't reached any transformation yet, so it's not exactly the same case, but yes, suppression is a thing for him too.

Whis also stated that Goku had a tendency to let his guard down which was a glaring weakness for him no matter how strong he became. The narrative already acknowledges Goku's increased growth in power but suggests that it's a weakness for him nonetheless. You're still caught up in the logistics of it but you haven't addressed why Vegeta (RoF) >= Goku > Expected Vegeta > Enraged Vegeta was not the case.

Goku stated the same thing for Freeza back in Z:

Spoiler

Even though, Freeza doesn't seem extremely vulnerable to attacks, Vegeta attacked him in his 2nd form and he made no damage (of course, those are events that Goku is not even aware of):

Spoiler

If it can apply to Freeza, it can apply to Goku too.

You haven't adressed why Vegeta surpassing Goku is the case in Goku's mind, especially when most of the times he was his inferior, which doesn't mean he exactly expect much of him.

You're right. He can't be weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks if objectively defeated SSJ3 Gotenks outright. That should be enough to show you how flawed your logic is. Aside from that, you haven't addressed how Beerus and Whis have also not been sensed from Beerus' planet. Surely they must be weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks?

Beerus was sensed in Episode 55 by Goku, makes sense considering that the far weaker SSj Blue Vegeta could.

 

[Goku9001]

No, Goku is talking about SSj Blue in the preview he never refers mainly to the new form or transformation with power that even exceeds/surpass God, as he never made mention of those, he is talking about its power in general.

Yes. Goku is discussing how Blue as a transformation is a power that exceeds the God form. This is explicitly conveyed through the Z Senshi's reactions who come to the conclusion that Blue is not Super Saiyan God but in fact, the next step above God. You are still sidestepping the issue here and you are blatantly contradicting source material that explicitly refers to Goku as a "normal Super Saiyan" while simultaneously possessing power on par with Super Saiyan God. Your viewpoint doesn't work.

Yes, Goku was suppressed, but that doesn't indicate that he isn't using his usual base form which doesn't have any internal power. Vegeta doesn't have any internal power, as he hasn't reached any transformation yet, so it's not exactly the same case, but yes, suppression is a thing for him too.

Goku stated the same thing for Freeza back in Z:

Spoiler

View attachment 1635

Even though, Freeza doesn't seem extremely vulnerable to attacks, Vegeta attacked him in his 2nd form and he made no damage (of course, those are events that Goku is not even aware of):

Spoiler

View attachment 1636View attachment 1637View attachment 1638

If it can apply to Freeza, it can apply to Goku too.

Beerus says the power was integrated into his being, so it permanently became a part of Goku. I don't know what you mean by "internal power" but it sounds like you're adhering to a "two-base" theory of sorts but haven't provided the evidence to support it. All we know is that Goku's mortal power was elevated to a much greater level without the use of god ki. That would mean that Goku's natural full power had increased much as it does through conventional means i.e training, potential unlock, etc. You could view this as a potential unlock if you'd like.

I found Whis' statement to provide clarification here. This is what Whis says.

Episode: 18
Time: 9:03-9:23
Context: Whis discusses Goku and Vegeta's weaknesses.
Whis: On the other hand... Being too relaxed is also a problem. And your overconfidence is a big issue. You may be strong, but you're vulnerable if you let your guard down. Your confidence has a tendency to make you careless.

It's a bit more nuanced based on what Whis states. Frieza merely leaves himself wide open due to his overconfidence but Goku's overconfidence leads him to be "too relaxed". Whis implies that he is strong, but no matter how powerful he is, letting his guard down leaves him vulnerable (due to being too relaxed). Goku was overconfident, carefree, and too relaxed which set himself up to be penetrated by Sorbet's laser. Toriyama originally had Blue Goku be critically wounded by Sorbet's laser so that would be the intent behind Whis' statement.

You haven't adressed why Vegeta surpassing Goku is the case in Goku's mind, especially when most of the times he was his inferior, which doesn't mean he exactly expect much of him.

You still haven't addressed the powerchain but that's all right. Goku said Vegeta's energy was completely different than it was back on Earth.

Beerus was sensed in Episode 55 by Goku, makes sense considering that the far weaker SSj Blue Vegeta could.

Indeed he did. Is your argument that Goku never sensed Base Vegeta's power whenever he was training? Otherwise, Goku would have chimed in whenever he wanted?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Yes. Goku is discussing how Blue as a transformation is a power that exceeds the God form. This is explicitly conveyed through the Z Senshi's reactions who come to the conclusion that Blue is not Super Saiyan God but in fact, the next step above God. You are still sidestepping the issue here and you are blatantly contradicting source material that explicitly refers to Goku as a "normal Super Saiyan" while simultaneously possessing power on par with Super Saiyan God. Your viewpoint doesn't work.

No, had Goku been referring to the form something similar like this could've taken place:

Spoiler

Of course, Goku would return just to being a normal SSJ because that's the form he used to transform into SSJ God, also as Beerus states the red flame of the form keep burning within him.

Beerus says the power was integrated into his being, so it permanently became a part of Goku. I don't know what you mean by "internal power" but it sounds like you're adhering to a "two-base" theory of sorts but haven't provided the evidence to support it. All we know is that Goku's mortal power was elevated to a much greater level without the use of god ki. That would mean that Goku's natural full power had increased much as it does through conventional means i.e training, potential unlock, etc. You could view this as a potential unlock if you'd like.

Every form of SSJ is internal power, because is power that is inside of them, otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for Base Vegeta to be able to distract Super Perfect Cell in his beam clash with Gohan. Of course, I'm not denying that Goku is stronger than his Z counterpart in equal forms.

I found Whis' statement to provide clarification here. This is what Whis says.

Episode: 18
Time: 9:03-9:23
Context: Whis discusses Goku and Vegeta's weaknesses.
Whis: On the other hand... Being too relaxed is also a problem. And your overconfidence is a big issue. You may be strong, but you're vulnerable if you let your guard down. Your confidence has a tendency to make you careless.

It's a bit more nuanced based on what Whis states. Frieza merely leaves himself wide open due to his overconfidence but Goku's overconfidence leads him to be "too relaxed". Whis implies that he is strong, but no matter how powerful he is, letting his guard down leaves him vulnerable (due to being too relaxed). Goku was overconfident, carefree, and too relaxed which set himself up to be penetrated by Sorbet's laser. Toriyama originally had Blue Goku be critically wounded by Sorbet's laser so that would be the intent behind Whis' statement.

I mean, several things contradicts Whis' statement, but ok. Had that been the case Super Perfect Cell could've been killed or at least damaged by Vegeta's blast.

You still haven't addressed the powerchain but that's all right. Goku said Vegeta's energy was completely different than it was back on Earth.

So what, is he estimating the power of his transformations or just in his regular base form...? When Goku compares and says that he doesn't believe that Z Sword Gohan could beat Fat Buu, is he just talking about his base form?

Indeed he did. Is your argument that Goku never sensed Base Vegeta's power whenever he was training? Otherwise, Goku would have chimed in whenever he wanted?

Yes, Base Vegeta's ki wasn't powerful enough to be sensed by Goku to teleport to Beerus planet, he used his opportunity when he used SSj Blue.

 

[Goku9001]

No, had Goku been referring to the form something similar like this could've taken place:

Spoiler

View attachment 1664

Of course, Goku would return just to being a normal SSJ because that's the form he used to transform into SSJ God, also as Beerus states the red flame of the form keep burning within him.

Goku does go over it briefly. He refers to Super Saiyan Blue as someone with the power of Super Saiyan God that has gone Super Saiyan. That implies that Blue is the next step for God. This is also inferred based on the reactions the Z Senshi had.

Episode: 24
Time: 20:19-20:42
Context: Goku finally unveils Super Saiyan Blue against Frieza.
Kuririn: I can't feel Goku's energy at all anymore.
Gohan: It seems he has turned into a Super Saiyan God.
Kuririn: But Gohan, look close... Goku's hair is now blue.
Tenshinhan: I believe his hair was red when he fought Beerus.
Roshi: Goku must have reached another level since then...

It's described in the same way. Super Saiyan Blue is another level just as Super Saiyan 2 and 3 were for the original form. The Z Senshi was questioning why Goku's hair was blue and Roshi clarifies that his hair was blue because it was the next level above God. That is the context. Not that Blue surpassed some arbitrary level of God, but to establish what sort of transformation Blue was for Goku. It's made clear by Beerus in Episode 20 or 21 that Goku had become stronger since the Battle of Gods. I can even provide the statement if need be.

Beerus was being metaphorical. He even says as much. He's just saying the power has become intrinsic to Goku and we know he can't use god ki at this time which I've already proven. It's permanent. I'm not seeing why it is not.

Every form of SSJ is internal power, because is power that is inside of them, otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for Base Vegeta to be able to distract Super Perfect Cell in his beam clash with Gohan. Of course, I'm not denying that Goku is stronger than his Z counterpart in equal forms.

I mean, several things contradicts Whis' statement, but ok. Had that been the case Super Perfect Cell could've been killed or at least damaged by Vegeta's blast.

I mean, that's a different way of describing latent power which we know is something not accessible in their current forms without tapping into that power via transformation or undergoing an awakening similar to Ultimate Gohan's.

That's understandable but that's the case being made for Goku by the author. Whis blatantly foreshadows Goku's downfall against Frieza via Sorbet's laser.

So what, is he estimating the power of his transformations or just in his regular base form...? When Goku compares and says that he doesn't believe that Z Sword Gohan could beat Fat Buu, is he just talking about his base form?

Yes, Base Vegeta's ki wasn't powerful enough to be sensed by Goku to teleport to Beerus planet, he used his opportunity when he used SSj Blue.

It could be his regular base form since Goku is going off of the energy he's currently sensing. However, the point is to establish that Goku had to retain at least some of the god power. Vegeta far outstripped Goku prior to the god ritual, Vegeta powered up vastly, Vegeta is only said to slightly surpass Goku, and Goku doesn't know how to use god ki without the ritual. What is the conclusion? That either Goku's power had to have increased to warrant Vegeta playing catch up or Goku was just making a mockery of Vegeta?

What episode was that in so I can take a look?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Goku does go over it briefly. He refers to Super Saiyan Blue as someone with the power of Super Saiyan God that has gone Super Saiyan. That implies that Blue is the next step for God. This is also inferred based on the reactions the Z Senshi had.

Episode: 24
Time: 20:19-20:42
Context: Goku finally unveils Super Saiyan Blue against Frieza.
Kuririn: I can't feel Goku's energy at all anymore.
Gohan: It seems he has turned into a Super Saiyan God.
Kuririn: But Gohan, look close... Goku's hair is now blue.
Tenshinhan: I believe his hair was red when he fought Beerus.
Roshi: Goku must have reached another level since then...

It's described in the same way. Super Saiyan Blue is another level just as Super Saiyan 2 and 3 were for the original form. The Z Senshi was questioning why Goku's hair was blue and Roshi clarifies that his hair was blue because it was the next level above God. That is the context. Not that Blue surpassed some arbitrary level of God, but to establish what sort of transformation Blue was for Goku. It's made clear by Beerus in Episode 20 or 21 that Goku had become stronger since the Battle of Gods. I can even provide the statement if need be.

Hmmm no, you are misunderstanding the point, I've already given the scene, but I would give it once again:

Spoiler

The forms here were never compared, what other thing could it mean?

I've re-watched Episode 20 and 21 from Super and the most near we have about the possibility of him getting stronger is this:

Spoiler

Both are questions/premises, but nothing clear about them being stronger:

I mean, that's a different way of describing latent power which we know is something not accessible in their current forms without tapping into that power via transformation or undergoing an awakening similar to Ultimate Gohan's.

That's understandable but that's the case being made for Goku by the author. Whis blatantly foreshadows Goku's downfall against Frieza via Sorbet's laser.

Because Goku was suppressed and not making use of god ki. He thought the fight was over and reduced his power to his regular base level, and then, got severly wounded.

It could be his regular base form since Goku is going off of the energy he's currently sensing. However, the point is to establish that Goku had to retain at least some of the god power. Vegeta far outstripped Goku prior to the god ritual, Vegeta powered up vastly, Vegeta is only said to slightly surpass Goku, and Goku doesn't know how to use god ki without the ritual. What is the conclusion? That either Goku's power had to have increased to warrant Vegeta playing catch up or Goku was just making a mockery of Vegeta?

What episode was that in so I can take a look?

I mean, "completely different" doesn't equate of "you're more powerful than before", Goku use this same wording to refer of how much power Super Buu has lost after all the absorbeds were removed:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: "Hehehe~~eh! With this, Boo's power should have fallen significantly! We're almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!"

If anything, is something ambiguous.

It was Episode 47 in which that happened.

 

[Goku9001]

Hmmm no, you are misunderstanding the point, I've already given the scene, but I would give it once again:

Spoiler

View attachment 1668

The forms here were never compared, what other thing could it mean?

I've re-watched Episode 20 and 21 from Super and the most near we have about the possibility of him getting stronger is this:

Spoiler

View attachment 1669View attachment 1670

Both are questions/premises, but nothing clear about them being stronger:

I understand what you are saying but the statement doesn't directly suggest what you are arguing for. It could literally be interpreted that Blue is a transformation that exceeds God and I've already given you the context to support it. Had Goku claimed that "it was his new power that exceeded the God level", you might have a case. Even then, the words "transformation" and "level" have been used synonymously.

Beerus is definitely certain about Goku and Vegeta's growth though. Whis and Goku acknowledges his statement. The only thing Goku disagrees with is being able to step up to Beerus. If we are denying Beerus' statement as well as many that evaluate fighters just by sensing them, by what metric can we actually assess their strengths? This is commonly the strategy Toriyama used in the past.

Because Goku was suppressed and not making use of god ki. He thought the fight was over and reduced his power to his regular base level, and then, got severly wounded.

How does this contradict the idea that Super Saiyan Goku was on par with Super Saiyan God without god power when he fought Beerus. We are starting to go in circles here.

I mean, "completely different" doesn't equate of "you're more powerful than before", Goku use this same wording to refer of how much power Super Buu has lost after all the absorbeds were removed:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: "Hehehe~~eh! With this, Boo's power should have fallen significantly! We're almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!"

If anything, is something ambiguous.

It was Episode 47 in which that happened.

Goku: Wow you've improved a lot! Your energy is a lot weaker than it was on Earth!

It's self-explanatory why Goku was referencing Vegeta's power growing much higher. This kind of wording was commonly used back in Z to emphasize significant growth.

I took a look at Episode 47 and it doesn't guarantee the conclusion you are making. Not only does Goku not sense Whis when he should be able to, but it's much easier to sense far-away ki the stronger it is. This doesn't tell us that Goku couldn't have sensed Base Vegeta. It only tells us that Goku can register Blue Vegeta's ki a lot easier and with a little bit more time, he may have been able to sense Base Vegeta.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I understand what you are saying but the statement doesn't directly suggest what you are arguing for. It could literally be interpreted that Blue is a transformation that exceeds God and I've already given you the context to support it. Had Goku claimed that "it was his new power that exceeded the God level", you might have a case. Even then, the words "transformation" and "level" have been used synonymously.

But it also doesn't suggest that your premise is true. Goku never says "my new transformation/form that exceeds/surpass my previous one", but he never says anything like this.

Beerus is definitely certain about Goku and Vegeta's growth though. Whis and Goku acknowledges his statement. The only thing Goku disagrees with is being able to step up to Beerus. If we are denying Beerus' statement as well as many that evaluate fighters just by sensing them, by what metric can we actually assess their strengths? This is commonly the strategy Toriyama used in the past.

I don't know but "it seems" isn't a discrete meaning, and also, Beerus in the first one is expressing their desire. Nothing that you're suggesting is definitive.

How does this contradict the idea that Super Saiyan Goku was on par with Super Saiyan God without god power when he fought Beerus. We are starting to go in circles here.

So what? SSJ God showed many abilities that afterwards it doesn't have. Wheter the scripters care or not of trying to bring develop to the idea or if it's something momentary is something is arbitrary to decide.

Goku: Wow you've improved a lot! Your energy is a lot weaker than it was on Earth!

It's self-explanatory why Goku was referencing Vegeta's power growing much higher. This kind of wording was commonly used back in Z to emphasize significant growth.

I took a look at Episode 47 and it doesn't guarantee the conclusion you are making. Not only does Goku not sense Whis when he should be able to, but it's much easier to sense far-away ki the stronger it is. This doesn't tell us that Goku couldn't have sensed Base Vegeta. It only tells us that Goku can register Blue Vegeta's ki a lot easier and with a little bit more time, he may have been able to sense Base Vegeta.

Improve =/= get stronger

Trunks told Goten how much he had improved in relation to before, yet, he didn't got stronger to the beginning of the saga to 25th Budokai.

It's not like Goku had issues sensing SSJ Kid Trunks, but wanted to go with Beerus, Whis and Vegeta to Earth...

 

[Goku9001]

But it also doesn't suggest that your premise is true. Goku never says "my new transformation/form that exceeds/surpass my previous one", but he never says anything like this.

I don't know but "it seems" isn't a discrete meaning, and also, Beerus in the first one is expressing their desire. Nothing that you're suggesting is definitive.

It wouldn't matter. The statement is ambiguous and you haven't proven exactly why your interpretation is guaranteed. Without that, your argument is just an assumption.

The word "seems" is often used when making a basic observation. It doesn't change the meaning of the statement other than to give context that Beerus is making an observation, one that both Whis and Goku acknowledge. In fact, Goku acknowledges that he's gotten stronger since challenging Beerus but still admits that he needs to get even stronger. The underlying message is that Goku had progressed since the Battle of Gods but still had a long way to go before he could challenge Beerus. That's the underlying narrative. It's your word against the narrative.

So what? SSJ God showed many abilities that afterwards it doesn't have. Wheter the scripters care or not of trying to bring develop to the idea or if it's something momentary is something is arbitrary to decide.

Improve =/= get stronger

Trunks told Goten how much he had improved in relation to before, yet, he didn't got stronger to the beginning of the saga to 25th Budokai.

So Super Saiyan Goku had god ki from Super Saiyan God but could not use any of its abilities? Do you not realize how illogical your argument is? I already gave you concrete evidence that Goku did not have god ki. I suggest you address why he had god ki rather than bringing up arbitrary examples. It gets you nowhere.

Goku evaluated Vegeta's progression based on his ki. This is literally common sense. If Goku sensed his ki and stated that he improved, then obviously his ki had gotten stronger. Seriously, do you not think Vegeta had gotten stronger, or are you just inserting your own assumption as to how much stronger he had gotten?

It's not like Goku had issues sensing SSJ Kid Trunks, but wanted to go with Beerus, Whis and Vegeta to Earth...

No one said he had issues sensing Base Vegeta. What I'm saying is that sensing a faraway ki is significantly easier the stronger it is. Goku latching onto Blue Vegeta's ki sooner than he would have had Vegeta remained in Base says nothing other than Blue Vegeta > Base Vegeta, which we all knew. Or, are you telling me that Blue Vegeta was stronger than Whis and he was going to kick Whis' ass right then and there because he sensed Vegeta rather than Whis?

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

It wouldn't matter. The statement is ambiguous and you haven't proven exactly why your interpretation is guaranteed. Without that, your argument is just an assumption.

Either way, you haven't proved me that Goku is talking as a SSj Blue as just a regular transformation, neither you would because your narrative doesn't even make sense. At least, I've given a comparison with how Goku talks about SSJ and SSJ2 against Fat Buu, which is similar to how he expresses to SSj Blue, it's unneeded the headcanon of Goku being stronger in SSj God prior to reaching SSj Blue.

The word "seems" is often used when making a basic observation. It doesn't change the meaning of the statement other than to give context that Beerus is making an observation, one that both Whis and Goku acknowledge. In fact, Goku acknowledges that he's gotten stronger since challenging Beerus but still admits that he needs to get even stronger. The underlying message is that Goku had progressed since the Battle of Gods but still had a long way to go before he could challenge Beerus. That's the underlying narrative. It's your word against the narrative.

"It seems" can also mean analyzing this at first look, but not thinking beyond of that thought. Gohan talking to Gotenks Buu told him that his stupidity hasn't changed just to realize Buu's entire plan not so much afterwards.

Either way, Goku is stronger than his previous self if we talk about Goku in general during this arc.

So Super Saiyan Goku had god ki from Super Saiyan God but could not use any of its abilities? Do you not realize how illogical your argument is? I already gave you concrete evidence that Goku did not have god ki. I suggest you address why he had god ki rather than bringing up arbitrary examples. It gets you nowhere.

If you can show me evidence that Goku can regenerate or canceling attacks of the enemy while being in SSj God in after arcs, then you will have a point, you've already lost your argument and insistence/perseverance of defending your narrative it's getting more nonsensical.

Goku evaluated Vegeta's progression based on his ki. This is literally common sense. If Goku sensed his ki and stated that he improved, then obviously his ki had gotten stronger. Seriously, do you not think Vegeta had gotten stronger, or are you just inserting your own assumption as to how much stronger he had gotten?

Vegeta has gotten stronger (to an exent) in relation to how he was before, you are just cherrypicking and give whatever reasoning you want it to be to the statements without analyzing other possibilities.

No one said he had issues sensing Base Vegeta. What I'm saying is that sensing a faraway ki is significantly easier the stronger it is. Goku latching onto Blue Vegeta's ki sooner than he would have had Vegeta remained in Base says nothing other than Blue Vegeta > Base Vegeta, which we all knew. Or, are you telling me that Blue Vegeta was stronger than Whis and he was going to kick Whis' ass right then and there because he sensed Vegeta rather than Whis?

It's a vague assumption to put Whis into the equation as Vegeta, Kid Trunks and Beerus, being far, far, far weaker than him could be sensed.