Kamiccolo vs Shin

[ahill1]

Piccolo stated that Shin is far stronger than him and the Daizenshuu also states Shin is way more powerful than the Super Namekian Piccolo. So I am going with that.

 

[SSJ2]

Were the air currents Shin gave off while floating around so powerful that Piccolo could tell he was a monster?

 

[GSM123]

The scene was weird if Kamiccolo was refering to power though. I mean, nobody could gauge Shin's power properly according to Vegeta, yet Goku still thinks Kamiccolo sensed him?

I agree, regardless. Him quiting due to respect doesn't nullify him being the weaker, as his claim was a response to Goku. The Daizenshuu does say he quit because of power, though.

 

[SSJ2]

Piccolo: "Who is this man?" *sweating buckets and looking nervous*

It looks to me as though Piccolo is quitting due to 1) fear of the unknown, 2) shocked by having his mind read, 3) the fact that Kaioshin is a godly being.

 

[SSJ2]

Kami was always sucking Kaio's dick whenever they interacted. I think Piccolo is quitting mainly due to Kaioshin being a god, alongside my other points. He may have thought Kaioshin was a beast due to how imposing and suspicious he came across in the Budokai. The very way he acted made him come across as formidable, and adding that Piccolo suspects he's the Grand Kaio, he probably figured this guy is a boss like Old Kaioshin.

 

[GSM123]

Fear of the unknown is a pretty lame reason.

I think it's a mix of both being a god and being stronger than him. In Super Trunks says God Ki feels like immense pressure but could still gauge his power by the pressure, right? I think Kamiccolo sensed the pressure at the ring and started freaking out at the type of ki, and when he realises the pressure is a god ki much stronger than him he shits himself and drops the towel.

 

[GSM123]

Kami sucking Kaio's balls can be because he's stronger than him too though.

 

[SSJ2]

How is Super relevant to the Dragon Ball manga whatsoever lol.

I don't mean fear of the unknown literally. Shin appears at the Budokai randomly, as if expecting Goku to be there despite him only being back for one day. He knows all the Z Senshi, has no ki signature himself, and was acting very mysteriously from the beginning. He is just this weird unknown figure that nobody knows about, and they all assume he was powerful because of this. He was an unknown until he displayed how much of a bitch he was on Babidi's ship. Vegeta even called him out for being irrelevant trash when he was fighting SSJ2 Goku.

 

[Pocket-God]

Could Piccolo have quit do to fear of being raped?

I mean, just look at the guy

 

[ahill1]

I think that Brofist from dbz forum made a good point about it when I created such thread:

I think one of the deciding factors of Kaioshin being stronger is Piccolo's own notion to Goku.

Once Piccolo gives up, Goku is basically like "He's that strong?" Not exactly those usage of words but Goku's clearly asking if Kaioshin is stronger and Piccolo admits to that. Goku doesn't recognize the importance of deities. He is clearly asking a question based on strength and power as is typical of Goku and getting admittance to the fact by Piccolo.

It helps also that throughout the series, people make their presence known from their strength. You know, God/Kami wasn't revered because he was a god, it was because he was (at the time at least) strong. He was stronger than Popo who was stronger than King Piccolo. People didn't fear Freeza because he had an iron grip over the galaxy. It was because he was naturally strong. Even a straight up God like Beerus is admired because of his intimidating power and not so much because of his purpose.

If Piccolo was only concerned about Kaioshin's status, his reaction should've been far more subtle and respectable. He doesn't have to look like he's going to piss himself in fear. He can show a little surprise and then step back. He can explain to everyone that this guy is one of the most important people in the universe and show that admiration for him. There is no reason I feel to make Piccolo break down in what almost looks like fear over a guy that Piccolo isn't even entirely sure is a god.

The more apparent reason in the manga to which Piccolo forfeited not being power related and being soemthing he didn't even know, but still leaning towards Kaioshin's identity doesn't make his claim of Kaioshin >> himself invalid or anything like this... they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. And whilst it got kind of up into the air whether Piccolo told Goku that Kaioshin is >> himself simply because he was really outclassed or in order to get Goku off his back, we have the Daizenshuu clarifying to us what was left somewhat unclear, with a pretty clear cut and dry Kaioshin >> Piccolo.

Kuririn' statement later on doesn't mean much because Kuririn has no clue about how strong Kaioshin is... he didn't see his demeanor in the spaceship, didn't see his movements against Majin Boo and was as clueless as everyone when this pale divinity was about to fight Boo... he had no way of knowing how strong he was, no way of knowing that Piccolo was above Shin and no grounds to contest Piccolo's statement of Kaioshin > himself. Whilst I agree that the "even" generally is used as a way to tell A > B (e.g Piccolo and Trunks at the androids saga), it surely isn't a comparison between Piccolo and Kaioshin at this point, unless one may think he was assuming Kaioshin was weaker than Piccolo based on nothing.

It may also be worth noting that Kami-sama stated back then that he'd merely be a catalyst for Piccolo's strength and knowledge, meaning Piccolo would still be the trigger to take the decisions:

Whilst it obviously would mean Piccolo had the knowledge that Shin was a very important deity, I think it's kind of a stretch that Piccolo's behaviour would be a lot influenced based on that.

 

[SSJ2]

I just want to add, even Kaioshin is surprised by Piccolo quitting.. you can see a little mark above his head in the scan I posted when Piccolo said he forfeited the match.

Also, even though I view the scene as Piccolo quitting due to respect/shock, he can certainly be weaker than Kaioshin here. I just see no reason or basis for him to come to that conclusion. My placement of Kaioshin is pretty well based on the events on Babidi's ship.

 

[ahill1]

That's fair enough, I guess. I personally take his reactions on Babidi's ship in another way, but I, unlike many others more radicals Kaioshin >> Piccolo defenders, don't think it's a stretch to take it the way you do.

 

[SSJ2]

I think you have to take shortcuts no matter which side you choose. This is one of those topics where there won't be a 100% definitive answer imo.

 

[ahill1]

I agree, pretty much.

 

[SSJ2]

What do you make of Kaioshin on the ship, ahill?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Daizenshuu also states Shin is way more powerful than the Super Namekian Piccolo. So I am going with that.

Daizenshuu also stated that Kibito ~ Base Gohan despite Ssjin 3 Kibito being God tier The Z-Sword scene and the entry being based on the similar loose implications as Shin > Piccolo.

 

[ahill1]

Daizenshuu also states Shin is way more powerful than the Super Namekian Piccolo. So I am going with that.

Daizenshuu also stated that Kibito ~ Base Gohan despite Ssjin 3 Kibito being God tier The Z-Sword scene and the entry being based on the similar loose implications as Shin > Piccolo.

Well, there's that "physical strength =/= chi" some people like to use, in which Gohan can be considerably stronger than Kibito as far as physical strength goes when still being more or less on even footing chi-wise.

 

[GSM123]

I think that Brofist from dbz forum made a good point about it when I created such thread:

I think one of the deciding factors of Kaioshin being stronger is Piccolo's own notion to Goku.

Once Piccolo gives up, Goku is basically like "He's that strong?" Not exactly those usage of words but Goku's clearly asking if Kaioshin is stronger and Piccolo admits to that. Goku doesn't recognize the importance of deities. He is clearly asking a question based on strength and power as is typical of Goku and getting admittance to the fact by Piccolo.

It helps also that throughout the series, people make their presence known from their strength. You know, God/Kami wasn't revered because he was a god, it was because he was (at the time at least) strong. He was stronger than Popo who was stronger than King Piccolo. People didn't fear Freeza because he had an iron grip over the galaxy. It was because he was naturally strong. Even a straight up God like Beerus is admired because of his intimidating power and not so much because of his purpose.

If Piccolo was only concerned about Kaioshin's status, his reaction should've been far more subtle and respectable. He doesn't have to look like he's going to piss himself in fear. He can show a little surprise and then step back. He can explain to everyone that this guy is one of the most important people in the universe and show that admiration for him. There is no reason I feel to make Piccolo break down in what almost looks like fear over a guy that Piccolo isn't even entirely sure is a god.

The more apparent reason in the manga to which Piccolo forfeited not being power related and being soemthing he didn't even know, but still leaning towards Kaioshin's identity doesn't make his claim of Kaioshin >> himself invalid or anything like this... they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. And whilst it got kind of up into the air whether Piccolo told Goku that Kaioshin is >> himself simply because he was really outclassed or in order to get Goku off his back, we have the Daizenshuu clarifying to us what was left somewhat unclear, with a pretty clear cut and dry Kaioshin >> Piccolo.

Kuririn' statement later on doesn't mean much because Kuririn has no clue about how strong Kaioshin is... he didn't see his demeanor in the spaceship, didn't see his movements against Majin Boo and was as clueless as everyone when this pale divinity was about to fight Boo... he had no way of knowing how strong he was, no way of knowing that Piccolo was above Shin and no grounds to contest Piccolo's statement of Kaioshin > himself. Whilst I agree that the "even" generally is used as a way to tell A > B (e.g Piccolo and Trunks at the androids saga), it surely isn't a comparison between Piccolo and Kaioshin at this point, unless one may think he was assuming Kaioshin was weaker than Piccolo based on nothing.

It may also be worth noting that Kami-sama stated back then that he'd merely be a catalyst for Piccolo's strength and knowledge, meaning Piccolo would still be the trigger to take the decisions:

Whilst it obviously would mean Piccolo had the knowledge that Shin was a very important deity, I think it's kind of a stretch that Piccolo's behaviour would be a lot influenced based on that.

Great post man. Do you have a link to the debate Brofist said this?

And i don't know about Kami not influencing Piccolo man... His personality did change a lot with the fusion, he was much softer than he used to be.

Well, there's that "physical strength =/= chi" some people like to use, in which Gohan can be considerably stronger than Kibito as far as physical strength goes when still being more or less on even footing chi-wise.

Both Goku and Kid Trunks needed to power up in turn to lift support weights. Phyisical strength definitely is related to ki.

What do you make of Kaioshin on the ship, ahill?

What do you mean?

 

[SSJ2]

I personally take his reactions on Babidi's ship in another way

I was asking him about this, GreatSaiyanMan

 

[ahill1]

I think I go more with the "his reaction in the ship came from a weakness in character rather than a lack of battle power", considering he seemed pretty nonchalant at Gohan SSJ2 in the tournament, despite shitting his pants at base Vegeta killing Pui Pui. So, I kind of think he overestimated Babidi's warriors a lot -- since he said Babidi is known from gathering just strong warriors -- and couldn't copy with Vegeta defeating someone he thought could be a real threat that way. Either that, or he was simply surprised with Vegeta being that strong in base alone, whereas he earlier might have thought they had to make use of SSJ to producce power of such magnitude, i.e power of being able to easily blow Freeza out of the water, if going with base >> Freeza. Might not be that much of a satisfactory explanation, but that's a way I find of making Kaioshin's lack of amazement towards ssj2 Gohan and yet "OMFG" reaction towards base Vegeta work along, where it's in no way implied base is >> Kaioshin.

I agree with you on the "physical strength has some kind of relation to battle power", but I don't think they might be completely in sync. But I don't think this is enough to invalidate Daizenshuu's take on Kaioshin >> Piccolo honestly, since Kibito not being able to lift the Z sword might be seen as a contradiction to the earlier statement, whereas there's no solid one contesting Shin's superiority over Piccolo.

Here is the debate, GS:

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/10009889/1/