Kamiccolo vs Shin

[GSM123]

Wtf my whole post is a huge quote but on the edit there's no [/quote] on the bottom

EDIT: Problem solved

 

[ahill1]

Why he wouldn't know how strong Yakon is? He recognizes him right off the bat and suggests teaming up just after seeing him in action.

He recognized Yakon, unlike Pui Pui, but that doesn't necessarily mean he knew how strong he was or had a precise insight about his strength. It also seems strange how he never mentioned how strong Yakon really was to the Z Warriors if he in fact had a precise knowledge about his strength.

You have to remember that damage will be instantly transformed into energy for Boo, so he is just worried the Z Warriors might get damage and, therefore, have their energy sent to Boo. He saw how Goku was apparently struggling with Yakon, hence why he wanted everyone to attack him at once.

He also wanted everyone to gang up on Yakon even after Goku and Vegeta stated how Dabura isn't all that and that they can defeat him if paying attention to his spit. So, if we take that seriously, we'd get Yakon > Dabura, since, like said, Kaioshin was already told Dabura is within manageable parameters. Kaioshin is just all over the place in the spaceship and is allowing his fear of Babidi's fearsomeness to talk louder and influence his demeanor. It's even somewhat justifiable considering he has experienced Boo's fearsomeness first handed, but that's clearly kind of influencing his ability to put things together and making him opt for the most secure way.

He wants to gang up on everyone, I wouldn't even be surprised if he wanted to gang up on Babidi as well.

If he saw that Yakon couldn't easily get the upperhand over base Goku, shouldn't he be able to tell he'd be easily killed by the Saiyajins, specially when Dabura isn't all that? Why would him be surprised at base Vegeta taking such foe when ssj2 Gohan should already put such power to shame?

Also, it's worth noting that Kaioshin was able to paralyze Gohan SSJ2 -- albeit with problems -- whereas Chaozu completely failed in paralyzing Nappa when the power difference wasn't even 10x going by the Daizenshuu's numbers... so, if applying the 100x multiplier for ssj2, shouldn't Kaioshin have failed miserably in stopping Gohan if he were even below base Vegeta? Unless you think Kaioshin's paralyze technique is just more special than Chaozu's, for some reason?

Not to mention that he could easily blow out an attack intended to kill ssj Gohan... he shouldn't have problems killing one of Babidi's warriors who couldn't even get the upper hand over base power.

I got it, but do you have an example or anything? Because if you don't, you're reaching.

I can't think of any example, but ask that in neosseker and I am sure some Daiz homers can bring you some nice ones.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I would've liked to have seen Kaioshin shit himself over the guy that went to fetch the Kiri meter for Bobbidi.

 

[ahill1]

I would've liked to have seen Kaioshin shit himself over the guy that went to fetch the Kiri meter for Bobbidi.

He would have shitted over everyone who went there hahaha.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Who do you think the original 2nd stage fighter was?

We saw the 2 henchmen chatting and the meter guy, but that's about it.

Had Yakon not been selected, I wonder who would've fought.

 

[Papasmurf]

lol I hope the 2nd stage fighter is Nappa in the TFS version. Just ends up being collateral damage when Vegeta blows up the ship lol.

 

[ahill1]

Hmm, yeah, there's no way to know. There should be more fighters besides Yakon of course, considering Dabura was surprised Babidi was sending Yakon so soon, but could you post maybe the design of Babidi's spaceship? I am not so fresh with these stages stuff.

 

[GSM123]

Hmm, yeah, there's no way to know. There should be more fighters besides Yakon of course, considering Dabura was surprised Babidi was sending Yakon so soon, but could you post maybe the design of Babidi's spaceship? I am not so fresh with these stages stuff.

Yeah, it seems like there was another five warriors considering the rooms besides Pocus and Yakon's.

 

[GSM123]

He recognized Yakon, unlike Pui Pui, but that doesn't necessarily mean he knew how strong he was or had a precise insight about his strength. It also seems strange how he never mentioned how strong Yakon really was to the Z Warriors if he in fact had a precise knowledge about his strength.

He comented they should gang up on him, so he sure has knowledge about his power. And after Yakon is killed, he coments on how strong the saiyans are, not on how he overstimated the warriors Babidi gathered.

You have to remember that damage will be instantly transformed into energy for Boo, so he is just worried the Z Warriors might get damage and, therefore, have their energy sent to Boo. He saw how Goku was apparently struggling with Yakon, hence why he wanted everyone to attack him at once.

If he's so cautious, why he doesn't fire a ki blast and kills Yakon? He's seeing him struggling with Base Goku, who he can sense pretty well, right there. Instead, he just yells that they should attack together.

He also wanted everyone to gang up on Yakon even after Goku and Vegeta stated how Dabura isn't all that and that they can defeat him if paying attention to his spit. So, if we take that seriously, we'd get Yakon > Dabura, since, like said, Kaioshin was already told Dabura is within manageable parameters. Kaioshin is just all over the place in the spaceship and is allowing his fear of Babidi's fearsomeness to talk louder and influence his demeanor. It's even somewhat justifiable considering he has experienced Boo's fearsomeness first handed, but that's clearly kind of influencing his ability to put things together and making him opt for the most secure way.

He thought the Saiyans were understimating Babidi's warriors though, as he insisted to Vegeta he shouldn't fight alone.

I don't think Shin having PSTD to anything related to Boo works, as he's not afraid of Spopovich and Yamu and completely ignores Pocus when he first shows up. It's most likely to be power related, as Babidi tells Yakon to not kill Shin, implying the lord of lords was at the monster's mercy:

He flat out says Babidi has no power and he's gonna slam him (?) on his own, so no.

If he saw that Yakon couldn't easily get the upperhand over base Goku, shouldn't he be able to tell he'd be easily killed by the Saiyajins, specially when Dabura isn't all that? Why would him be surprised at base Vegeta taking such foe when ssj2 Gohan should already put such power to shame?

Gohan at the Budokai is all sort of fucks. First Shin thinks Dabra is endgame even though he's one shot fodder to SSJ2 Gohan, then he coments on how he held Gohan back, then Goku and Vegeta have no clue about his power implying he never transformed at the Budokai, then Kibito recognizes the SSJ transformation. Most of the things related to Gohan's transformation at the Budokai are too hard to correlate with the rest of the Arc.

Also, it's worth noting that Kaioshin was able to paralyze Gohan SSJ2 -- albeit with problems -- whereas Chaozu completely failed in paralyzing Nappa when the power difference wasn't even 10x going by the Daizenshuu's numbers... so, if applying the 100x multiplier for ssj2, shouldn't Kaioshin have failed miserably in stopping Gohan if he were even below base Vegeta? Unless you think Kaioshin's paralyze technique is just more special than Chaozu's, for some reason?

http://web.archive.org/web/20111103181628/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.php?m=04&id=attack_p-r#paralysis_arts

That's the reason Shin's paralysis art is more special than mime boy's.

Not to mention that he could easily blow out an attack intended to kill ssj Gohan... he shouldn't have problems killing one of Babidi's warriors who couldn't even get the upper hand over base power.

Easily? He passed out from destroying the blast. Piccolo did the same thing to deflect Gohan's blast when Freeza pushed it back and didn't faint like Shin, and he looked way worse than him.

I can't think of any example, but ask that in neosseker and I am sure some Daiz homers can bring you some nice ones.

There's one in Super when Goku or Vegeta couldn't lift some weights due to a bad position, but that's it. Nobody made note of Kibito not being on a adequated position, so it's likely a power issue.

 

[ahill1]

He comented they should gang up on him, so he sure has knowledge about his power. And after Yakon is killed, he coments on how strong the saiyans are, not on how he overstimated the warriors Babidi gathered.

He commenting they should gang up on him doesn't mean he has exact knowledge on his strength. It just means he takes Yakon as a very powerful warrior and wants to take a cautious demeanor against him. Like I said, he saw how Yakon was giving base Goku problems and how Goku was almost cut weren't it an after image(?), so that's why he wished to gang up on him.

Again, Kaioshin wished to gang up on Yakon after hearing first handed how the one fighting Yakon is able to defeat Dabura and after sensing SSJ2 Gohan... is Yakon > Dabura then? Above SSJ2 Gohan then? It just shows Kaioshin wants to take the safest approach even though he should logically know the enemy shouldn't have been a problem.

If he's so cautious, why he doesn't fire a ki blast and kills Yakon? He's seeing him struggling with Base Goku, who he can sense pretty well, right there. Instead, he just yells that they should attack together.

Because he is just not thinking rationally. He is seeing those warriors as a real threat, even though they shouldn't logically be. If he is thinking straight and isn't letting his fear towards Boo influence his critical thinking, why doesn't he sit there and say "Ohh, I don't need to worry, Vegeta said every one of them can defeat Dabura, then Goku can obviously easily defeat him..."? Or why doesn't he sit there and relax since the power he sensed from Gohan in the Budokai is more than enough to get the job done? Or, even better, why doesn't he just paralyze Yakon (he obviously should have been able to, considering he was able to hold Gohan ssj2 back in place) so Goku could land the finishing blow? We can at least agree that paralyzing Yakon is something he should have been able to.

He thought the Saiyans were understimating Babidi's warriors though, as he insisted to Vegeta he shouldn't fight alone.

Yeah, and he said Babidi was known for gathering the strongest fighters around the World. He didn't know how strong they were.

I don't think Shin having PSTD to anything related to Boo works, as he's not afraid of Spopovich and Yamu and completely ignores Pocus when he first shows up.

Him not being afraid of Spopovich and Yamu isn't a good argument to use because he knew they were just being used to gathet energy for Babidi and were never anything special, even moreso when freaking Videl could break his neck with one kick. In fact, he mentioned they are only being used, despite later stating that Babidi gathers the strongest fighter around the Universe:

Spoiler

So he obviously doesn't give Spopovich and Yamu the same respect he does Babidi's fighters...he knew they were just the trigger for the plan, let's put it that way.

Now, if he knew exactly how strong Yakon and Pui Pui were, he would have known the Z warriors could easily handle them. Right? Right? If he was thinking straight, that is.

He flat out says Babidi has no power and he's gonna slam him (?) on his own, so no.

So no what? You saw that he still seemed to be somewhat worried about Babidi's powers while saying that he'd pin him down, right? But that honestly can be taken either way, and doesn't strengthen any position, so I don't think it's worth using, honestly.

Gohan at the Budokai is all sort of fucks. First Shin thinks Dabra is endgame even though he's one shot fodder to SSJ2 Gohan, then he coments on how he held Gohan back, then Goku and Vegeta have no clue about his power implying he never transformed at the Budokai, then Kibito recognizes the SSJ transformation. Most of the things related to Gohan's transformation at the Budokai are too hard to correlate with the rest of the Arc.

Which just shows how poorly executed things are. Fact is, he still remembers Gohan's power at the Budokai, he didn't forget it, knows Dabura isn't that much of a big deal to Vegeta and Goku, yet still wants to gang up on Babidi's warriors. His chosen of actions is anything but rational (or you could take it as rational considering he wants at all costs to prevent Boo from awakening, dunno).


"Depending of the user, the method of using it". We saw that wasn't the case with Chaozu and Kaioshin though, as both had to keep their hands directed to their opponents when using it:

Spoiler

Like you know, it's the same with Kaioshin. If anything, the different one would be General Blue, who doesn't even have to make use of his hands, looking at his opponents is already enough:

Spoiler

That should be the part regarding the "method of using" Daizenshuu ought be basing it on. Now regarding the effect, it might have to do with Chaozu's paralyze art causing a stomachace into the target, like shown in the image displayed above, which isn't apparent in both General Blue and Kaioshin's paralysis art, hence the "different effect", not a "different effect"in a form of "Kaioshin's paralysis art can affect opponents whose gap over him is way wider than Chaozu", no. So, 0 about Kaioshin's paralysis art being more special than our pale midget bruh.

Easily? He passed out from destroying the blast. Piccolo did the same thing to deflect Gohan's blast when Freeza pushed it back and didn't faint like Shin, and he looked way worse than him.

He passed out because he had already taken out a hell of a beating from Boo (well, maybe not a "hell", but at least enough to injury him considerably and make him motionless), the same way Kaioshin died after paralysing Dabura in future Trunks' timeline in Toyotaro's manga... whilst the process of destroying the blast and paralysing Dabura could have accelerated the proccess, the main reason was obviously how beaten up he was.

Piccolo changed the blast's trajectory, which isn't quite the same thing, nor was Piccolo as beaten up as Kaioshin.

There's one in Super when Goku or Vegeta couldn't lift some weights due to a bad position, but that's it. Nobody made note of Kibito not being on a adequated position, so it's likely a power issue.

Well, like I said, you can try asking that on Kanzenshuu or neoseeker, but as we agreed it shouldn't affect the Kaioshin >> Piccolo statement.

BTW, since you agreed with Kaioshin >> Piccolo and has already said it's the most likely scenario, why are you so adamant with Babidi's warriors being outclassed by Kaioshin? Are you running with Babidi's warriors >> Kaioshin >> Piccolo now?

 

[GSM123]

He commenting they should gang up on him doesn't mean he has exact knowledge on his strength. It just means he takes Yakon as a very powerful warrior and wants to take a cautious demeanor against him. Like I said, he saw how Yakon was giving base Goku problems and how Goku was almost cut weren't it an after image(?), so that's why he wished to gang up on him.

Again, Kaioshin wished to gang up on Yakon after hearing first handed how the one fighting Yakon is able to defeat Dabura and after sensing SSJ2 Gohan... is Yakon > Dabura then? Above SSJ2 Gohan then? It just shows Kaioshin wants to take the safest approach even though he should logically know the enemy shouldn't have been a problem.

I mean, he knows Dabra and knows how strong he is. He knows Babidi and know how powerful his magic is. He knows Freeza and knows how strong he is. Yet he knows Yakon and doesn't know how strong he is? It doesn't make any sense IMO.

Because he is just not thinking rationally. He is seeing those warriors as a real threat, even though they shouldn't logically be. If he is thinking straight and isn't letting his fear towards Boo influence his critical thinking, why doesn't he sit there and say "Ohh, I don't need to worry, Vegeta said every one of them can defeat Dabura, then Goku can obviously easily defeat him..."? Or why doesn't he sit there and relax since the power he sensed from Gohan in the Budokai is more than enough to get the job done? Or, even better, why doesn't he just paralyze Yakon (he obviously should have been able to, considering he was able to hold Gohan ssj2 back in place) so Goku could land the finishing blow? We can at least agree that paralyzing Yakon is something he should have been able to.

The same situations applies to Dabra, honestly. If Shin can paralyze SSJ2 Gohan, nothing stops him from doing the same against Dabra. It's just fucked up writting.

Him not being afraid of Spopovich and Yamu isn't a good argument to use because he knew they were just being used to gathet energy for Babidi and were never anything special, even moreso when freaking Videl could break his neck with one kick. In fact, he mentioned they are only being used, despite later stating that Babidi gathers the strongest fighter around the Universe:

Spoiler

So he obviously doesn't give Spopovich and Yamu the same respect he does Babidi's fighters...he knew they were just the trigger for the plan, let's put it that way.

Now, if he knew exactly how strong Yakon and Pui Pui were, he would have known the Z warriors could easily handle them. Right? Right? If he was thinking straight, that is.

If Shin can realize that Spopovich and Yamu are nothing special, then he's thinking straight. He was pretty confident they could manage something against Babidi until he saw Dabra was with him. If Shin truly suffered of PSTD, he'd barely be able to even talk about the subject.

And no, he wouldn't know the Z Fighters could beat Babidi's warriors because he didn't know how strong the Saiyans are. All he knew is that they are stronger than him, as evidences by Shin's lack of confidence on defeating Goku at the Budokai:
Chapter: 437 (DBZ 243), P11.2-3
Context: talking to Goku
Kaioshin: “I’ve managed to pass the preliminaries too. It’d be nice if the match-ups allow me to have a match against you. Of course, I don’t have confidence that I could win, but I want to know just how strong you are.”

Which just shows how poorly executed things are. Fact is, he still remembers Gohan's power at the Budokai, he didn't forget it, knows Dabura isn't that much of a big deal to Vegeta and Goku, yet still wants to gang up on Babidi's warriors. His chosen of actions is anything but rational (or you could take it as rational considering he wants at all costs to prevent Boo from awakening, dunno).

He only started to freak out when he saw Dabra was with Babidi, so his fear is pretty rational as Dabra is known as the King of the Demon Realm and Shin wasn't expecting opponents that strong. He knows who Yakon is as he recognizes him and his abilites, so i don't think it's anything irrational.

If his fear is truly irrational, why wasn't he afraid of Pocus at all? He only was really freaked out when Dabra or Yakon were around, never with Pocus.

"Depending of the user, the method of using it". We saw that wasn't the case with Chaozu and Kaioshin though, as both had to keep their hands directed to their opponents when using it:

Spoiler

Like you know, it's the same with Kaioshin. If anything, the different one would be General Blue, who doesn't even have to make use of his hands, looking at his opponents is already enough:

Spoiler

That should be the part regarding the "method of using" Daizenshuu ought be basing it on. Now regarding the effect, it might have to do with Chaozu's paralyze art causing a stomachace into the target, like shown in the image displayed above, which isn't apparent in both General Blue and Kaioshin's paralysis art, hence the "different effect", not a "different effect"in a form of "Kaioshin's paralysis art can affect opponents whose gap over him is way wider than Chaozu", no. So, 0 about Kaioshin's paralysis art being more special than our pale midget bruh.

Good point Ahill, but still. Chaotsu and Shin's paralysis art are regarded as different types, with Shin's one being called a really powerful type while Chaotsu's doesn't receive any compliments, it's only mentioned it causes stomach pains, a side effect that didn't affect Gohan when Shin paralyzed him.
So yeah, both should be different types regardless of how they use their hands.

He passed out because he had already taken out a hell of a beating from Boo (well, maybe not a "hell", but at least enough to injury him considerably and make him motionless), the same way Kaioshin died after paralysing Dabura in future Trunks' timeline in Toyotaro's manga... whilst the process of destroying the blast and paralysing Dabura could have accelerated the proccess, the main reason was obviously how beaten up he was.

Piccolo changed the blast's trajectory, which isn't quite the same thing, nor was Piccolo as beaten up as Kaioshin.

Yeah, you're right. Although Piccolo looked worse, he was still able to fly, whereas Shin was crippled on the floor.

But still, looking at the scene it seems like Shin used a kiai or something similiar to destroy the ball, and Kiais are known for their feats on much stronger guys.
There's the possibility Shin's power are related to magic, too. Though i don't see any concrete evidence for this.

BTW, since you agreed with Kaioshin >> Piccolo and has already said it's the most likely scenario, why are you so adamant with Babidi's warriors being outclassed by Kaioshin? Are you running with Babidi's warriors >> Kaioshin >> Piccolo now?

Yeah, i am following the 2011~2012 chain of Bae >> Pocus >> Shin >>> Kamiccolo nowadays. I don't think Kamiccolo is anything special at the Cell Games anymore.

 

[GSM123]

Ahill, how you think Kamiccolo knew how strong Shin was? Kamiccolo sensed his pressure like Trunks with Blue Vegeta on Super, Shin just doens't have godly ki or what?

 

[SSJ2]

With all due respect, using Super to justify that claim is simply aids.

 

[GSM123]

That's like saying Z can't be used to explain stuff on part I. Yeah, Super wasn't supposed to happen while Z was, but still. Super is the sequence as acknowledged.

 

[Papasmurf]

AT wrote all of DB and Z with only a short break in between tho, while Super has waaaaaaay more input from Toei (who can't even keep consistency with their own writing).

Although in the aspect of god ki sensing, the manga seems more retarded in that regard. Why is Galu a CSSJB who can't even sense god ki in at least his first 3 lower forms?

 

[ahill1]

Fair enough, GreatSaiyaman. I think it's fair to agree to disagree then.

That's a good question regarding Piccolo. It either has to do with Piccolo feeling such pressure, similar to Trunks in Super regarding Vegeta SSJB, or he was just basing it off of Shin's ranking as a God. You could say he was overestimating Shin due to his status, given that Vegeta said something like "based on his status, Kaioshin was supposed to be someone incredible" and given that Shin seems to be rather weak for Kaioshin's standards, but Piccolo originally thought he was a Dai Kaio, someone apparently a rank lower than Kaioshin... so it's somewhat doubtful he'd be still overestimating a Dai Kaio to be > a Kaioshin, even a rather weak one.

I agree that the way Piccolo came to the conclusion that Shin is >>> himself seems unclear when he apparently couldn't sense his chi, but even if it was a hint or whatever, I feel the Daizenshuu's statement serves as way to clarify to us he was still right about his assessment, even if the 'source' for such statement was left unclear in the manga.

Also, I don't think Piccolo's obliviouness to Beerus is comparable to Kaioshin here. Even though he apparently couldn't sense Kaioshin's chi, he obviously had a way better insight on him than he ever did on Beerus... he wasn't hesitating on attacking Beerus, wasn't shaking on his boots at the mere presence of Beerus, didn't feel undermined or anything like this by him. So, for whatever reason, Kaioshin had something 'besides' Beerus that could make Piccolo have a better insight on him, as well as respect him more.

 

[GSM123]

I find hard to assume Kamiccolo assumed Shin was strong based on his status. The last deity on the hierarchy he saw was Kaio, who was weaker than Nappa. It requires a huge assumption from Green Man to assume the next god on the hierarchy is millions of times stronger than the last one, and i don't think that's implied.

I don't know about him sensing the pressure. In BoGs he mentioned Beerus was giving off no Chi at all and he clearly didn't know how strong he was. Even if one argues Shin just doesn't have god ki, it doesn't explain why Goku had to ask Kamiccolo about Shin's power.

 

[ahill1]

Well, Vegeta stated that Kaioshin was supposed to be someone incredible based on his status. So he was guessing Kaioshin's power based on his status alone, although it's true he didn't seem to know about Kaio-sama's powers.

Goku probably assumed Piccolo got to feel something about this mystrious' fella power considering he seemed to be sweatting bullets and later surrendered. He assumed Piccolo knew something about him they didn't and asked about his power.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

If this is the Kaioshin who restrained Gohan and fought Majin Buu, Piccolo was telling the truth. It doesn't give Piccolo much room to grow from the Cell Games, but he did literally nothing this arc so that's fine. I've had him around FPSSJ-tier or a bit weaker for a while now, so he stomps.

If this is the Kaioshin who couldn't fight Yakon on his own, Piccolo basically taps him and he dies.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Shins stated to be stronger. Not sure how there's a 6 page "debate" over this.