POWER LEVEL LIMIT FOR SAIYAN BASE ?

[VampireWicked]

That also implies there's a PowerLevel cap on Transformations, or any Forms realy.
How are two different Saiyan training in two completely different locations separate from each other, one gains an increase through the MajinSpell & the other throught Training in OtherWorld.

[youtube]GhYRjyVJ5kI[/youtube]​

Can Saiyans create original Ki techniques or are they just born with them?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I agree totally. Surpassing limits is a running theme in the series, so obviously these limits should exist in the first place. Otherwise there would be no point in unlocking new forms ever.

Of course Saiyans can create new Ki techniques. They aren’t born knowing but have little problem to learn, as shown with Goku initially not knowing any Ki techniques but easily learning the Kamehameha. Vegeta creates several new techniques throughout the series as well.

 

[VampireWicked]

I agree totally. Surpassing limits is a running theme in the series, so obviously these limits should exist in the first place. Otherwise there would be no point in unlocking new forms ever.

Of course Saiyans can create new Ki techniques. They aren’t born knowing but have little problem to learn, as shown with Goku initially not knowing any Ki techniques but easily learning the Kamehameha. Vegeta creates several new techniques throughout the series as well.

1. Aside from overcoming Limits & unlocking Transformations, are all Saiyans hitting a specific set PowerLevel limit first before breaking a that Limit or Transforming ?
I know the possibility is only bought up a few instances in the series which implies such a notion so I just wildly conjured a few topics outta boredom lol, but that screams take a closer look at the DragonBall universe Logic.

If IF there's a PowerLevel limit cap that means Vegeta catching up to Goku was within his reach in a matter of time.


2. Yes but how did Cabba know of & use the Galick Gun ?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I agree totally. Surpassing limits is a running theme in the series, so obviously these limits should exist in the first place. Otherwise there would be no point in unlocking new forms ever.

Of course Saiyans can create new Ki techniques. They aren’t born knowing but have little problem to learn, as shown with Goku initially not knowing any Ki techniques but easily learning the Kamehameha. Vegeta creates several new techniques throughout the series as well.

1. Aside from overcoming Limits & unlocking Transformations, are all Saiyans hitting a specific set PowerLevel limit first before breaking a that Limit or Transforming ?
I know the possibility is only bought up a few instances in the series which implies such a notion so I just wildly conjured a few topics outta boredom lol, but that screams take a closer look at the DragonBall universe Logic.

If IF there's a PowerLevel limit cap that means Vegeta catching up to Goku was within his reach in a matter of time.


2. Yes but how did Cabba know of & use the Galick Gun ?

Not really. Not all Saiyans are the same and just like there are differences between their SSJ forms there would be differences in their base forms. I don’t think it’s by much though.

2. That doesn’t have anything to do with knowing a technique from birth. Since U6 and U7 are twin universes, it’s logical someone would’ve created the technique in both planets.

 

[VampireWicked]

Not really. Not all Saiyans are the same and just like there are differences between their SSJ forms there would be differences in their base forms. I don’t think it’s by much though.

How is it not really?
IF there was a set Base level cap at say 1Billion & Goku was leading in PowerLevel then unless Vegeta dies or gives up training altogether, he'll eventually in time hit that 1Billion Base Level Cap as Goku did before him.

The only differences would be in Potential.

That doesn’t have anything to do with knowing a technique from birth. Since U6 and U7 are twin universes, it’s logical someone would’ve created the technique in both planets.

Who?
How does one technique be known in two separate Universes ?
That's wild right lol.

 

[sei'taer]

I think I'm missing how that implies anything about limits.

Also the Viz version says that he didn't train harder than goku, that he thought he did but realized he could never make up the difference. Same with herms

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

 

[Spiral-Force]

^Wrong; you've misinterpreted the statement. Vegeta doesn't disagree that he trained harder (hence why he thinks he did more special training), he disagrees that they're completely even. Although they were even in terms of power, Vegeta recognises that Goku is more gifted and that he wouldn't have been able to match him without Babidi's power-up.

 

[VampireWicked]

I think I'm missing how that implies anything about limits.

Also the Viz version says that he didn't train harder than goku, that he thought he did but realized he could never make up the difference. Same with herms

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

It's not gifts I'm talking about.
How does that gap vanish with a Spell.
How does that Spell hit a specific point placing Vegeta evenly in terms of Power with Goku & not higher or lower than?

^Wrong; you've misinterpreted the statement. Vegeta doesn't disagree that he trained harder (hence why he thinks he did more special training), he disagrees that they're completely even. Although they were even in terms of power, Vegeta recognises that Goku is more gifted and that he wouldn't have been able to match him without Babidi's power-up.

I completey missed this so bare with me, how was in Base Vegeta even with Cabba ?
I mean really What was that lol ?

 

[Spiral-Force]

I completey missed this so bare with me, how was in Base Vegeta even with Cabba ?

Because that's what the fight and the narrative portrayed.

I mean really What was that lol ?

Is there an actual problem you have with the scaling?

 

[VampireWicked]

I completey missed this so bare with me, how was in Base Vegeta even with Cabba ?

Because that's what the fight and the narrative portrayed.

I mean really What was that lol ?

Is there an actual problem you have with the scaling?

1.lol Okay cause I got that when I watched the Anime, I just thought there was something more I missed & everybody on the forum held topics explaining that something I missed.

2. Nope not at all.
That just lifts an eyebrow lol.

Think about it though.
Two separate Universes, Two different Saiyans & they're equal in Base.
Like WOW lol.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Well there's at least a connection through the phenomenon of U6 and U7 being twin universes, giving the writers the liberty to include parallels like these. When you think about it, it doesn't really matter to the bigger picture; the theme of Cabba learning about "Saiyan pride" and his acquisition of Super Saiyan could've still been delivered if he was significantly weaker.

 

[VampireWicked]

Well there's at least a connection through the phenomenon of U6 and U7 being twin universes, giving the writers the liberty to include parallels like these. When you think about it, it doesn't really matter to the bigger picture; the theme of Cabba learning about "Saiyan pride" and his acquisition of Super Saiyan could've still been delivered if he was significantly weaker.

It does give liberties but the bigger picture distracts from that implied possibility.
IF there's a Saiyan Power Cap then Frieza has a higher one.
And that means Frieza has quite possibly more Potential, much more than even the likes of Gohan.

 

[Spiral-Force]

It does give liberties but the bigger picture distracts from that implied possibility.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. Can you expound on that?

IF there's a Saiyan Power Cap then Frieza has a higher one.
And that means Frieza has quite possibly more Potential, much more than even the likes of Gohan.

Frieza himself expressed that Saiyans have bottomless power hidden within them.

He still thought they couldn't match him (which Goku proved wrong), but these lines at least offer clarity about the limitless potential of the Saiyans. Newer media also reinforces this.

As far as the Gohan and Frieza comparison: Frieza has shown tremendous potential from what we've seen of him in Super, but I don't recall it being stated to be boundless. If we assume it is, then it would essentially come down to who maximises their potential better. The story is flexible enough for both of them to possibly outdo each other in this regard.

 

[VampireWicked]

It does give liberties but the bigger picture distracts from that implied possibility.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. Can you expound on that?

I was agreeing with you when it came to writers adding little parallels like these.
Cabba knowing the Galick Gun & small stuff like that doesn't really distract from the overall plot of having the fate of an entire Universe on the line.

Frieza himself expressed that Saiyans have bottomless power hidden within them.

He still thought they couldn't match him (which Goku proved wrong), but these lines at least offer clarity about the limitless potential of the Saiyans. Newer media also reinforces this.

As far as the Gohan and Frieza comparison: Frieza has shown tremendous potential from what we've seen of him in Super, but I don't recall it being stated to be boundless. If we assume it is, then it would essentially come down to who maximises their potential better. The story is flexible enough for both of them to possibly outdo each other in this regard.

Frizea was actually right in that Saiyans had hidden power, & he was right in that Saiyans could not match.
By Z's end Saiyans didn't match him unless through Hidden Power such as Transformation, Fusion, RageBoost, Potential Unlock.

Without that Hidden Power Saiyans even stated by Lord Beerus could not even at the end of Z defeat Frieza.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Frieza is technically wrong about the second part since Goku — a Saiyan — proved to be superior, let alone a match for him. Obviously no past Saiyan was presented as his equal up to that point, but Frieza dismissed the possibility of it so he was factoring in the future as well. Not only is that claim arrogant (since he even admitted that Saiyans have no limits), but it came back to bite him.

Are you capable of forming judgements based on the source material, or are you just going to let your imagination take the wheel? By Z's end, Base Goku fought on equal terms with an opponent he said could possibly beat Mr. Buu, then later commented that he is as amazing as expected. Unless you think Namek Frieza is comparable to Mr. Buu, this build-up and confirmation would be redundant. Perhaps these events may not be favourable to your ideas, but I'll take what's straightforwardly presented over personal assumptions anyday. You bring up Beerus, yet he wasn't even present at Z's end; I'd advise you to not mix blatant fanfiction with the series next time you make a claim. We can go back and forth on this if you want, but it's worth noting that even if you want to cling to Frieza > EoZ Base Saiyans, that still wouldn't confirm a permanent cap. So you'd be back to square one with your question.

 

[Six Trails]

119,000

 

[VampireWicked]

Frieza is technically wrong about the second part since Goku — a Saiyan — proved to be superior, let alone a match for him. Obviously no past Saiyan was presented as his equal up to that point, but Frieza dismissed the possibility of it so he was factoring in the future as well. Not only is that claim arrogant (since he even admitted that Saiyans have no limits), but it came back to bite him.

Are you capable of forming judgements based on the source material, or are you just going to let your imagination take the wheel? By Z's end, Base Goku fought on equal terms with an opponent he said could possibly beat Mr. Buu, then later commented that he is as amazing as expected. Unless you think Namek Frieza is comparable to Mr. Buu, this build-up and confirmation would be redundant. Perhaps these events may not be favourable to your ideas, but I'll take what's straightforwardly presented over personal assumptions anyday. You bring up Beerus, yet he wasn't even present at Z's end; I'd advise you to not mix blatant fanfiction with the series next time you make a claim. We can go back and forth on this if you want, but it's worth noting that even if you want to cling to Frieza > EoZ Base Saiyans, that still wouldn't confirm a permanent cap. So you'd be back to square one with your question.

1. Without Transformation Goku wasn't.
Even with Kaioken x20

2. The only assumptions I've made are based off the material, I don't do fan-fic.
You're holding onto Goku vs Uub as your reference & that's fine but what did the DragonBall Super Anime say about uub?

Beyond that Battle Of The Gods is a DragonBall Z Movie.

Beerus actually confirmed that Base Goku could not defeat Frieza at DragonBall Z's End.
And in The DragonBall Super Anime series too right?

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

Also stated that gains by the end of Namek were small.

 

[ahill1]

I think ppl lean on this "base Saiyajins have a limit" proposition based on Vegeta stating that he reached a limit prior to the achieving of SSJ -- maybe not so much with these words, but he mentioned running into a wall and getting mad over it. So they take that to mean that a condition to achieve the SSJ is for the base state to achieve its limit.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

You're holding onto Goku vs Uub as your reference & that's fine but what did the DragonBall Super Anime say about uub?

Why would Super bother to say anything on Oob when he had yet to grow his power at all at that point? Seems like a pointless thing to bring up.

]quote]Beerus actually confirmed that Base Goku could not defeat Frieza at DragonBall Z's End.
And in The DragonBall Super Anime series too right?[/quote]Super takes place before the End of Z, so even if taking his statement into account (despite the many pieces of evidence contadicting it), that would be irrelevant.

Also stated that gains by the end of Namek were small.

It states that the boosts from wounds being healed (ie. Zenkais) became small, not training gains in general. To interpret it that way is to blatantly twist the wording to your convenience.

I think ppl lean on this "base Saiyajins have a limit" proposition based on Vegeta stating that he reached a limit prior to the achieving of SSJ -- maybe not so much with these words, but he mentioned running into a wall and getting mad over it. So they take that to mean that a condition to achieve the SSJ is for the base state to achieve its limit.

Vegeta later believed he would surpass Goku if he gained the Super Saiyan form, so his final Zenkai on Namek clearly wasn't his limits.

At this point, limits are nothing but a pointless buzzword to make the power gained through new training methods, transformations or techniques look more spectacular. They lost any sort of credibility at the very earliest with the Piccolo Daimao Arc where the Choshinsui was supposed to draw out all of Goku's hidden power despite that soon being proven not to be the case, or at the very latest after the Saiyan Arc with how Goku erroneously believed he'd reached his peak after Kaio's training. In short, the term "limits" in Dragon Ball has no point other than to be proven wrong by the characters talking about them.

 

[Spiral-Force]

1. Without Transformation Goku wasn't.
Even with Kaioken x20

Super Saiyan is part of his power though. You previously used these factors for hidden power: "transformation, fusion, rage boost, potential unlock" so even by your logic, Frieza ended up being wrong. By the way, all of those factors only increase power to an extent; since Frieza described their hidden power as bottomless, that means he's just speaking of potential in general, so base form shouldn't be excluded.

2. The only assumptions I've made are based off the material, I don't do fan-fic.

Let's see... believing Frieza was right about something he was proven wrong about first-hand, attributing specific factors to a power statement that was unbounded by such variables, claiming Beerus made a statement including characters from a period he wasn't even part of, etc. sounds exactly like fanfiction.

You're holding onto Goku vs Uub as your reference & that's fine but what did the DragonBall Super Anime say about uub?

Uub hasn't really been fleshed out in Super. Dende described him as a genius, but that's still sort of vague. Super Goku is a monster compared to his Z self though, so Super Uub would be too if he scales to him later on.

Beyond that Battle Of The Gods is a DragonBall Z Movie.

It is, but it takes place years before Z's end.

Beerus actually confirmed that Base Goku could not defeat Frieza at DragonBall Z's End.
And in The DragonBall Super Anime series too right?

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

Again, that period wasn't Z's end. And in both cases, Beerus was analysing his outward appearance as opposed to his ki which makes the accuracy of his assessment questionable. Goku was also hiding before he revealed himself to Beerus, which would give him the incentive to be suppressed.

Also stated that gains by the end of Namek were small.

That's talking about near-death power-ups (i.e. Zenkais) in particular, so that doesn't account for gains as a whole.