POWER LEVEL LIMIT FOR SAIYAN BASE ?

[VampireWicked]

Why would Super bother to say anything on Oob when he had yet to grow his power at all at that point? Seems like a pointless thing to bring up.

Because IF Uub was brought up in Super as he was at the end of Z then it suggests the gains Goku had in his Base Form were much larger than we're lead to believe.

Super takes place before the End of Z, so even if taking his statement into account (despite the many pieces of evidence contadicting it), that would be irrelevant.

It states that the boosts from wounds being healed (ie. Zenkais) became small, not training gains in general. To interpret it that way is to blatantly twist the wording to your convenience.

Battle Of the Gods & SUPER is years after the Defeat of MajinBuu.

The existence of Mr Buu before Super Saiyan God was created is proof of this.

[youtube]hBAPuGhyZPM[/youtube]​

The statement made that gains for Base Saiyans were small is only further confirmed by the statement from Lord Beerus.
Beerus says Goku in his Base Form he could not defeat Frieza.
It is stated by Beerus in Both Battle Of The Gods, DragonBall SUPER, & The DragonBall Super Manga.

So it's very relevant.
Seems you're the only one twisting words for convenience.

Super Saiyan is part of his power though. You previously used these factors for hidden power: "transformation, fusion, rage boost, potential unlock" so even by your logic, Frieza ended up being wrong. By the way, all of those factors only increase power to an extent; since Frieza described their hidden power as bottomless, that means he's just speaking of potential in general, so base form shouldn't be excluded.

SuperSaiyan is a Multiplier that multiplies a PowerLevel.
It's initially triggered through an overwhelming sense of rage, hatred, & S-Cells.

2. Without S-Cells, without that SuperSaiyan Transformation. Goku could not've beaten Frieza.

The Battle with Freeza
Goku: 3,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Kaiō-Ken x10: 30,000,000 Calculated: Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Kaiō-Ken x20: 60,000,000 Calculated: Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Super Saiyan: 150,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83

Freeza (first form): 530,000 Dragon Ball Chapter 286
— second form: over 1,000,000 Dragon Ball Chapter 296
— final form, 50% full power: 60,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— final form, 100% full power: 120,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83

Let's see... believing Frieza was right about something he was proven wrong about first-hand, attributing specific factors to a power statement that was unbounded by such variables, claiming Beerus made a statement including characters from a period he wasn't even part of, etc. sounds exactly like fanfiction.

I wish.
I wouldn't make any such suggestions regarding any kind of Power limit or Cap for Base Saiyans.

Uub hasn't really been fleshed out in Super. Dende described him as a genius, but that's still sort of vague. Super Goku is a monster compared to his Z self though, so Super Uub would be too if he scales to him later on.

That's unfortunate anything referring Uub in Super is vague.

It is, but it takes place years before Z's end.

It does not as Mr Buu existed during the Battle Of The Gods, so it takes place after the defeat of MajinBuu.

Again, that period wasn't Z's end. And in both cases, Beerus was analysing his outward appearance as opposed to his ki which makes the accuracy of his assessment questionable. Goku was also hiding before he revealed himself to Beerus, which would give him the incentive to be suppressed.

That's talking about near-death power-ups (i.e. Zenkais) in particular, so that doesn't account for gains as a whole.

Then the opportunity for Berus to correct himself would've been presented while/after sparring with Goku on King Kai's planet where Goku cycled through each of his Transformations.

And Beerus did not correct his statement.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Because IF Uub was brought up in Super as he was at the end of Z then it suggests the gains Goku had in his Base Form were much larger than we're lead to believe.

Bringing him up when only Goku was aware of his existence prior to him talking to Vegeta a few days before the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, so there'd be absolutely no way to bring him into conversation without causing major plot holes (one of which the anime already caused in the Universe 6 Arc). Oob would also be far younger and incapable of bringing out his full power at this point without anger, so there's no possible context in which he'd be brought up without it feeling forced.

Battle Of the Gods & SUPER is years after the Defeat of MajinBuu.

They also take place years before the End of Z, with Pan and Bra still being babies.

The statement made that gains for Base Saiyans were small is only further confirmed by the statement from Lord Beerus.

Again, it says the gains from healing wounds, not training in general. You're removing the context.

Beerus says Goku in his Base Form he could not defeat Frieza.
It is stated by Beerus in Both Battle Of The Gods, DragonBall SUPER, & The DragonBall Super Manga.

Firstly, Beerus could only comment on Goku's physical appearance as Goku would be suppressed at his relaxed level (evidenced as late as the Tarble events where Tarble initially didn't think he was that strong) and had already seen SSJ Goku fight Freeza which would be enough to make his conclusion correct regardless of how strong Goku compared to Freeza. Secondly, he doesn't make the statement about Goku surpassing Freeza until after Goku goes SS2 in the manga, so using Beerus' comments here as a benchmark is flimsy at best.

So it's very relevant.
Seems you're the only one twisting words for convenience.

If you think that, it shows you're clearly misunderstanding the point of my post. The end of Z isn't the defeat of Pure Boo, it's 10 years later when Goku flies off with Oob, several years after the most recent events in Super. My point is that you're using events that take place around 5 years earlier in the timeline to argue against Spiral Force's comment on the End of Z which is a false equivalence when not only does it go by the assumption that Goku hit his peak in the Boo Arc regardless of what feats go against it, but is even debunked in Super with the power ups Goku has gotten in all his forms.
Moreover, removing the context of the statement about post-Freeza power ups where it clearly says verbatim: "power-ups received through having wounds healed became small" to instead interpret it as "training gains in general became small" is absolutely twisting words for convenience as it removes a very important piece of context revolving around it. Even if I were to agree with you that Freeza > Base Goku, that isn't good evidence to use when the statement is purely about Zenkais becoming limited and eventually capped out, something made apparent with Vegeta VS Black in the manga despite Goku and Vegeta still being able to receive good gains from training.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Zenkais were a superior method to training, so the former becoming pointless would mean the later is even more pointless. That’s the reason the Daizenshuu 7 closed that section specifically referring to transformations and fusion as the new method of powering up.

 

[Spiral-Force]

SuperSaiyan is a Multiplier that multiplies a PowerLevel.
It's initially triggered through an overwhelming sense of rage, hatred, & S-Cells.

2. Without S-Cells, without that SuperSaiyan Transformation. Goku could not've beaten Frieza.

The Battle with Freeza
Goku: 3,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Kaiō-Ken x10: 30,000,000 Calculated: Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Kaiō-Ken x20: 60,000,000 Calculated: Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— Super Saiyan: 150,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83

Freeza (first form): 530,000 Dragon Ball Chapter 286
— second form: over 1,000,000 Dragon Ball Chapter 296
— final form, 50% full power: 60,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83
— final form, 100% full power: 120,000,000 Daizenshuu 7-p.83

Dumping a bunch of information into your post isn't going to help your argument when it doesn't actually counter anything. I never denied the details or fundamentals of Super Saiyan; just acknowledged the fact that it's a transformation that Goku entered and demonstrated to exceed Frieza with, disproving Frieza's assertion that no Saiyan could match him. You also view transformations as being part of hidden power, so you're gonna have to alter your argument or perspective if you still want to attempt to prove Frieza was right. Referencing the multipliers actually supports my point since I pointed out that Super Saiyan (and other power-ups) only increases power to an extent, which is correct. Unless you want to argue 50x equals infinity, then we're on the same page here.

I wish.
I wouldn't make any such suggestions regarding any kind of Power limit or Cap for Base Saiyans.

This doesn't address what you quoted me on.

It does not as Mr Buu existed during the Battle Of The Gods, so it takes place after the defeat of MajinBuu.

Mr. Buu is the same Buu that helped Goku and Vegeta in the fight against Kid Buu. The only difference is the alternate name. Z's end takes place 10 years after the Buu Arc, so it actually does take place years after the Battle of Gods events as I said before.

Then the opportunity for Berus to correct himself would've been presented while/after sparring with Goku on King Kai's planet where Goku cycled through each of his Transformations.
And Beerus did not correct his statement.

Pre-God Goku's power in general was insignificant to Beerus anyway, so giving special praise or admiration to his lowest form out of all forms would be very unnecessary. The only thing important to Beerus was Super Saiyan God. Goku didn't even power-up within his base form either; he just went straight to Super Saiyan.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Zenkais were a superior method to training, so the former becoming pointless would mean the later is even more pointless. That’s the reason the Daizenshuu 7 closed that section specifically referring to transformations and fusion as the new method of powering up.

This doesn't seem to matter much in the late portion of the series. Especially in the anime with things like Base and SSJ Goku holding his own against an Ultimate Gohan clone stated to have the same power as the original. Or Base Vegeta's survival feats against Kid Buu, which even shocked the Majin at one point. You could say these are just odd moments, but it does show that the writers are willing to present the lower forms as being quite powerful even though there's access to greater forms. GT and Super amplify this.

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta later believed he would surpass Goku if he gained the Super Saiyan form, so his final Zenkai on Namek clearly wasn't his limits.

I was referring to Vegeta right after showing he achieved his SSJ against #19, not his final Zenkai in Namek. When going over his training to achieve the state, Vegeta states he ran through a wall, his own limits.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Zenkais were a superior method to training, so the former becoming pointless would mean the later is even more pointless. That’s the reason the Daizenshuu 7 closed that section specifically referring to transformations and fusion as the new method of powering up.

This doesn't seem to matter much in the late portion of the series. Especially in the anime with things like Base and SSJ Goku holding his own against an Ultimate Gohan clone stated to have the same power as the original. Or Base Vegeta's survival feats against Kid Buu, which even shocked the Majin at one point. You could say these are just odd moments, but it does show that the writers are willing to present the lower forms as being quite powerful even though there's access to greater forms. GT and Super amplify this.

Along with GT and Super, the anime tends to portray characters with inferior power as holding their own for action and filler’s sake, so I’d take these feats with a grain of salt most of the time. In the example you mentioned for example, Goku claimed he nor Vegeta had a chance against Super Boo. So even the producers of the show didn’t take the scene seriously and still regarded Goku as powerless here overall, let alone his lower forms.

Using survival feats as evidence is very subjective. Being brutally beaten down definitely isn’t a way of showing one’s improvements that were never implied to have happened, so I’d say other factors were key here. For example, didn’t Mr Satan also survive Pure Boo? That doesn’t mean he’s Base Vegeta level now, does it?

Vegeta later believed he would surpass Goku if he gained the Super Saiyan form, so his final Zenkai on Namek clearly wasn't his limits.

I was referring to Vegeta right after showing he achieved his SSJ against #19, not his final Zenkai in Namek. When going over his training to achieve the state, Vegeta states he ran through a wall, his own limits.

Plus Vegeta saying he’ll surpass Goku as a SSJ doesn’t really debunk that one statement, but nobody takes that one serious nonetheless. Vegeta just thought he’d reached peak power and became a SSJ.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

For example, didn’t Mr Satan also survive Pure Boo? That doesn’t mean he’s Base Vegeta level now, does it?

To be fair, Boo was holding back heavily due to Good Boo's influence still within him, so not the best example to use. Most of the other Boos' feats such as Shin surviving against Fat Boo or Trunks taking a sucker punch from Evil Boo aren't credible either, considering Boo doesn't always use his full effort and isn't really aware how strong he is according to . Something like a fatigued Base Goku enduring several attacks from a pissed off 50% Freeza would be a far better example to use, combined with the evidence of Goku always being able to endure attacks far above his level (enduring Piccolo's Chobakuhatsuha that he stated was far above any Ki he'd sensed, not taking severe damage from Oozaru Vegeta's kick, etc.) and his durability being stated by Roshi to be his strongest point as of his training with Popo (something conditions such as the gravity training and Rosat training would only improve).

 

[Spiral-Force]

Along with GT and Super, the anime tends to portray characters with inferior power as holding their own for action and filler’s sake, so I’d take these feats with a grain of salt most of the time.

Since it is something that the writers tend to do, as you've pointed out, that strengthens my point that the supposed implication of small power gains in lower forms hardly matters in the later segments of the series and onwards. Such isn't even debatable in GT and Super, with events like Base Goku fighting on par with a villain stated to be more powerful than Buu in the Baby Saga, and a Base Vegeta clone making short work of SSJ3 Gotenks in the Copy-Vegeta Saga.

In the example you mentioned for example, Goku claimed he nor Vegeta had a chance against Super Boo. So even the producers of the show didn’t take the scene seriously and still regarded Goku as powerless here overall, let alone his lower forms.

As I said previously, you can view the scene as being odd or whatnot, but the actual point is that the writers still went out of their way to showcase the lower forms as being strong and relevant enough to reoccur in fights against foes much stronger than in previous arcs. Definitely doesn't fall in-line with the idea of the lower forms having minimal gains.

Using survival feats as evidence is very subjective. Being brutally beaten down definitely isn’t a way of showing one’s improvements that were never implied to have happened, so I’d say other factors were key here. For example, didn’t Mr Satan also survive Pure Boo? That doesn’t mean he’s Base Vegeta level now, does it

Considering Vegeta compared the damage he was taking to what SSJ3 Goku was fighting, the writers were definitely highlighting how tough Vegeta is. This period in the narrative isn't something to be glossed over either since Vegeta's survival was an integral part of the story and played a part in Goku's victory over Buu. Your Satan reference is pretty weak since that was obviously Good Buu's influence at play.

 

[VampireWicked]

Bringing him up when only Goku was aware of his existence prior to him talking to Vegeta a few days before the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, so there'd be absolutely no way to bring him into conversation without causing major plot holes (one of which the anime already caused in the Universe 6 Arc). Oob would also be far younger and incapable of bringing out his full power at this point without anger, so there's no possible context in which he'd be brought up without it feeling forced.

Not disagreeing & still standing by my initial reasoning.

They also take place years before the End of Z, with Pan and Bra still being babies.

Battle Of The Gods is the end, & Super continues from there.

Again, it says the gains from healing wounds, not training in general. You're removing the context.

Firstly, Beerus could only comment on Goku's physical appearance as Goku would be suppressed at his relaxed level (evidenced as late as the Tarble events where Tarble initially didn't think he was that strong) and had already seen SSJ Goku fight Freeza which would be enough to make his conclusion correct regardless of how strong Goku compared to Freeza. Secondly, he doesn't make the statement about Goku surpassing Freeza until after Goku goes SS2 in the manga, so using Beerus' comments here as a benchmark is flimsy at best.

1. Not the one removing anything.
The statement includes a referring to Transformations & Fusions.
"Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers"

So obviously it includes training etc as they aren't gaining Fusions through near death battles.

2. Goku never had AscendedSaiyan (SS2) when he fought Frieza, so it's clear Beerus is commenting the fact Goku has Transformations under his belt.
Saiyan Transformations are Multipliers of the Initial Base Form are they not.

As I said before Beerus had ample time during & after that section with Goku to change that statement.
And he did not

If you think that, it shows you're clearly misunderstanding the point of my post. The end of Z isn't the defeat of Pure Boo, it's 10 years later when Goku flies off with Oob, several years after the most recent events in Super. My point is that you're using events that take place around 5 years earlier in the timeline to argue against Spiral Force's comment on the End of Z which is a false equivalence when not only does it go by the assumption that Goku hit his peak in the Boo Arc regardless of what feats go against it, but is even debunked in Super with the power ups Goku has gotten in all his forms.
Moreover, removing the context of the statement about post-Freeza power ups where it clearly says verbatim: "power-ups received through having wounds healed became small" to instead interpret it as "training gains in general became small" is absolutely twisting words for convenience as it removes a very important piece of context revolving around it. Even if I were to agree with you that Freeza > Base Goku, that isn't good evidence to use when the statement is purely about Zenkais becoming limited and eventually capped out, something made apparent with Vegeta VS Black in the manga despite Goku and Vegeta still being able to receive good gains from training.

If you say so dude.
What are you arguing exactly here, that any gains in Base during Z didn't become small & infrequent & that Base Saiyans in the Buu Arc could defeat 100% Frieza or what ?

Dumping a bunch of information into your post isn't going to help your argument when it doesn't actually counter anything. I never denied the details or fundamentals of Super Saiyan; just acknowledged the fact that it's a transformation that Goku entered and demonstrated to exceed Frieza with, disproving Frieza's assertion that no Saiyan could match him. You also view transformations as being part of hidden power, so you're gonna have to alter your argument or perspective if you still want to attempt to prove Frieza was right. Referencing the multipliers actually supports my point since I pointed out that Super Saiyan (and other power-ups) only increases power to an extent, which is correct. Unless you want to argue 50x equals infinity, then we're on the same page here.

I don't need to alter anything because without S-Cells Frieza was 100% right, he was not counting on any Saiyan Transformation occurring at that point.



My point boils down to one question.
If Goku did not achieve the SuperSaiyan on Namek at the time of fighting Frieza, could he have defeated Frieza?

This doesn't address what you quoted me on.

It addresses exactly what I quoted you on cause I don't write FanFic.

Mr. Buu is the same Buu that helped Goku and Vegeta in the fight against Kid Buu. The only difference is the alternate name. Z's end takes place 10 years after the Buu Arc, so it actually does take place years after the Battle of Gods events as I said before.

​

Battle Of The Gods 7yrs after the defeat of Majin Buu, Super takes place 6 Months after Buu's defeat, & had come to an end with DragonBall Super: Broly.
So unless there's more DragonBall Super or a new series carries the name DragonBall Z then The fight with Goku & Uub that does takes place 10yrs later IN DragonBall z may not take place or more than likely be re-written.

Pre-God Goku's power in general was insignificant to Beerus anyway, so giving special praise or admiration to his lowest form out of all forms would be very unnecessary. The only thing important to Beerus was Super Saiyan God. Goku didn't even power-up within his base form either; he just went straight to Super Saiyan.

That does not remove or diminish the statement made by Beerus.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Not disagreeing & still standing by my initial reasoning.

The initial reasoning that they should bring up a character that hasn't been introduced or anyone other than Goku, Dende and Popo should be aware of...sounds coherent.

Battle Of The Gods is the end, & Super continues from there.

The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai is the end of Z. That's basic knowledge for anyone who's watched all of Z or its Kai equivalent. Not sure how you're having a hard time understanding this.

Battle Of The Gods 7yrs after the defeat of Majin Buu, Super takes place 6 Months after Buu's defeat, & had come to an end with DragonBall Super: Broly.

Unless there's something severely wrong with my eyes, there's no part of that image you posted that said BoG takes place 7 years after Boo's defeat (unless you don't understand the meaning of the word "several" and thought it meant 7 years). Official material blatantly contradicts this as well, such as Xenoverse placing the events of the film/arc in Age 778. Moreover, information we've been presented doesn't give an overly large time gap between the start and end of Super, with events such as Bra's birth lining up well with the timeline to fit it in the gap between Boo's defeat and the End of Z. There have been plot holes created from this continuity such as Vegeta somehow knowing Boo in the anime, but the actual chronology of events has yet to clash with the original manga or Z anime.

So unless there's more DragonBall Super or a new series carries the name DragonBall Z then The fight with Goku & Uub that does takes place 10yrs later IN DragonBall z may not take place or more than likely be re-written.

Not only is that all complete assumptions not backed up by evidence, but the mentions of Oob in Super that set up his and Goku's eventual confrontation outright rebuke this notion.

1. Not the one removing anything.
The statement includes a referring to Transformations & Fusions.
"Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers"

So obviously it includes training etc as they aren't gaining Fusions through near death battles.

Firstly, the context wouldn't need to include training when considering the first part mentions the constant increase in scale of enemies making more than just training required, which is evident. Even if a Saiyan were to surpass Freeza's level in their base form it wouldn't make a difference if their opponent is over 50x stronger than that unless they gained some new transformation or technique.
Secondly, it's made pretty evident within the manga that the gains made from training weren't small at all. Even without bringing up such hot topics of debate such as Base Trunks/Goten VS #18 and such, it's made pretty evident from Future Trunks' reaction here:

Spoiler

Trunks is surprised Vegeta is going to use Grade 2 right off the bat, showing that the SSJ Vegeta who got wrecked by #18 is now at a level comparable to 2nd form Cell. If that's not evidence that large gains couldn't be made within the primary source, I don't know what is. Unless you inflate the SSJ multiplier for no valid reason, it's pretty evident Base Vegeta would be far stronger after his training than before.
Thirdly, as I already said before, the source points out the gains from healing wounds in specific, something that has indeed been shown to have a cap to the amount of times it can be used effectively in Super.

2. Goku never had AscendedSaiyan (SS2) when he fought Frieza, so it's clear Beerus is commenting the fact Goku has Transformations under his belt.

In the manga, Beerus wasn't even aware of what Super Saiyan was until Goku started fighting him and only made comment on how Goku's strength compared to Freeza in any form until Goku goes SS2. In other words, what you said of Beerus having some comparison of Base Goku to Freeza is true of BoG and the anime, but not the manga.

As I said before Beerus had ample time during & after that section with Goku to change that statement.
And he did not

In what reality does Goku instantly going SSJ with no instant to directly show his full base power after this give Beerus "ample time" to correct himself?

What are you arguing exactly here, that any gains in Base during Z didn't become small & infrequent & that Base Saiyans in the Buu Arc could defeat 100% Frieza or what?

That's what I believe, other than the infrequent part as training gains are often determined by new methods, regimes, general plot hax, etc., though the topic of Base Saiyans VS Freeza is one so done to death I'd rather leave Spiral Force to discuss the bulk of this debate with you. What my main issue was, however, were several points of your argumentation such as this weird notion of not realising Spiral Force is talking about Goku VS Oob when he refers to End of Z despite it clearly being the end of Z or equating gains from Zenkais to training in general, for reasons I've already outlined.

My point boils down to one question.If Goku did not achieve the SuperSaiyan on Namek at the time of fighting Frieza, could he have defeated Frieza?

Pretty big false equivalence. That's basically the same as saying Base Goku couldn't reach the 1mil mark because his Saiyan Arc self couldn't beat Oozaru Vegeta without a Genki Dama. Comparing how a character would fare in a far earlier arc to one many years later after multiple power ups really holds no weight.

That does not remove or diminish the statement made by Beerus.

Beerus' statement comes after he eyes up Goku's body and appearance, something noticeably dissimilar to the image he's seen in Whis' crystal ball of when Goku fought Freeza. That alone would be enough that Beerus would be able to tell Goku defeated Freeza in Super Saiyan and not his base form.
It needn't have anything to do with Base Goku's actual power when all that's required to make the conclusion is for Beerus to have functioning eyes.

 

[VampireWicked]

The initial reasoning that they should bring up a character that hasn't been introduced or anyone other than Goku, Dende and Popo should be aware of...sounds coherent.

Yep.

The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai is the end of Z. That's basic knowledge for anyone who's watched all of Z or its Kai equivalent. Not sure how you're having a hard time understanding this.

Does the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai exist in DragonBall Super ?

Unless there's something severely wrong with my eyes, there's no part of that image you posted that said BoG takes place 7 years after Boo's defeat (unless you don't understand the meaning of the word "several" and thought it meant 7 years). Official material blatantly contradicts this as well, such as Xenoverse placing the events of the film/arc in Age 778. Moreover, information we've been presented doesn't give an overly large time gap between the start and end of Super, with events such as Bra's birth lining up well with the timeline to fit it in the gap between Boo's defeat and the End of Z. There have been plot holes created from this continuity such as Vegeta somehow knowing Boo in the anime, but the actual chronology of events has yet to clash with the original manga or Z anime.

1. lol Yeah I wasn't paying attention.
I was looking at something else that said something completely unrelated while posting that & smurfin 7 just popped in.

2. Maybe those plots are indications that the meeting with Uub is being worked in later.

Not only is that all complete assumptions not backed up by evidence, but the mentions of Oob in Super that set up his and Goku's eventual confrontation outright rebuke this notion.

Really, why not.
If Uub isn't old enough at that point in Super then why couldn't a likely later meeting happen at some point in Super.

Firstly, the context wouldn't need to include training when considering the first part mentions the constant increase in scale of enemies making more than just training required, which is evident. Even if a Saiyan were to surpass Freeza's level in their base form it wouldn't make a difference if their opponent is over 50x stronger than that unless they gained some new transformation or technique.
Secondly, it's made pretty evident that within the manga that the gains made from training weren't small at all. Even without bringing up such hot topics of debate such as Base Trunks/Goten VS #18 and such, it's made pretty evident from Future Trunks' reaction here:
Trunks is surprised Vegeta is going to use Grade 2 right off the bat, showing that the SSJ Vegeta who got wrecked by #18 is now at a level comparable to 2nd form Cell. If that's not evidence that large gains couldn't be made within the primary source, I don't know what is. Unless you inflate the SSJ multiplier for no valid reason, it's pretty evident Base Vegeta would be far stronger after his training than before.
Thirdly, as I already said before, the source points out the gains from healing wounds in specific, something that has indeed been shown to have a cap to the amount of times it can be used effectively in Super.

THAT's just a Buff of the initial SuperSaiyan Transformation in which utilizes the benefits in flawed ways.
Sure there's gains in Base However there is no suggestion that Base becomes high enough to match 100% Frieza or even 50% Frieza.

In what reality does Goku instantly going SSJ with no instant to directly show his full base power after this give Beerus "ample time" to correct himself?

Dude Transformations are Multipliers, they only multiply the current PowerLevel of the user.
Goku goes through each Transformation, why would he bother transforming if he isn't showing his all.

He is directly showing his Full Base Power by showing what each Transformation is multiplying.

That's what I believe, other than the infrequent part as training gains are often determined by new methods, regimes, general plot hax, etc., though the topic of Base Saiyans VS Freeza is one so done to death I'd rather leave Spiral Force to discuss the bulk of this debate with you. What my main issue was, however, were several points of your argumentation such as this weird notion of not realising Spiral Force is talking about Goku VS Oob when he refers to End of Z despite it clearly being the end of Z or equating gains from Zenkais to training in general, for reasons I've already outlined.

Then we're not going to get anywhere so just part ways.

 

[Spiral-Force]

I don't need to alter anything because without S-Cells Frieza was 100% right, he was not counting on any Saiyan Transformation occurring at that point.
My point boils down to one question.
If Goku did not achieve the SuperSaiyan on Namek at the time of fighting Frieza, could he have defeated Frieza?

You struggle to take the story for what it is and what actually happened. You're hinging on "without X..." and "if Goku didn't have Y..." even though Frieza didn't exclude or restrict any parameters when he said Saiyans could not match him. It's simply just a cocky statement that he got proven wrong about; like when he said he will never lose during the fight with Super Saiyan Goku:

If you want to prove him right, then do so instead of waffling and asking a question that won't help your case.

It addresses exactly what I quoted you on cause I don't write FanFic.

Nah, you brushed it under the carpet. You've previously said things that are a product of your imagination, like Beerus making a statement regarding Saiyans at the end of DBZ. Whether you want to call it fanfiction, or headcanon, or whatever, it holds no place in a discussion about the actual story events.

Battle Of The Gods 7yrs after the defeat of Majin Buu, Super takes place 6 Months after Buu's defeat, & had come to an end with DragonBall Super: Broly.
So unless there's more DragonBall Super or a new series carries the name DragonBall Z then The fight with Goku & Uub that does takes place 10yrs later IN DragonBall z may not take place or more than likely be re-written.

It doesn't say 7 years after; it says several, which means more than two or three, but not many. Nothing from those screenshots contradicts what I said. Unless you want to argue Pan and Bulla aged in reverse, then it'd be best for you to stop perpetuating this point.

That does not remove or diminish the statement made by Beerus.

Beerus' assessment was surface level and didn't even mention ki. Someone may look or appear to be like something, but that doesn't mean it's always the case. That's why they say "don't judge a book by its cover".

 

[VampireWicked]

I don't need to alter anything because without S-Cells Frieza was 100% right, he was not counting on any Saiyan Transformation occurring at that point.
My point boils down to one question.
If Goku did not achieve the SuperSaiyan on Namek at the time of fighting Frieza, could he have defeated Frieza?

You struggle to take the story for what it is and what actually happened. You're hinging on "without X..." and "if Goku didn't have Y..." even though Frieza didn't exclude or restrict any parameters when he said Saiyans could not match him. It's simply just a cocky statement that he got proven wrong about; like when he said he will never lose during the fight with Super Saiyan Goku:

If you want to prove him right, then do so instead of waffling and asking a question that won't help your case.

It addresses exactly what I quoted you on cause I don't write FanFic.

Nah, you brushed it under the carpet. You've previously said things that are a product of your imagination, like Beerus making a statement regarding Saiyans at the end of DBZ. Whether you want to call it fanfiction, or headcanon, or whatever, it holds no place in a discussion about the actual story events.

Battle Of The Gods 7yrs after the defeat of Majin Buu, Super takes place 6 Months after Buu's defeat, & had come to an end with DragonBall Super: Broly.
So unless there's more DragonBall Super or a new series carries the name DragonBall Z then The fight with Goku & Uub that does takes place 10yrs later IN DragonBall z may not take place or more than likely be re-written.

It doesn't say 7 years after; it says several, which means more than two or three, but not many. Nothing from those screenshots contradicts what I said. Unless you want to argue Pan and Bulla aged in reverse, then it'd be best for you to stop perpetuating this point.

That does not remove or diminish the statement made by Beerus.

Beerus' assessment was surface level and didn't even mention ki. Someone may look or appear to be like something, but that doesn't mean it's always the case. That's why they say "don't judge a book by its cover".

Forget it.
If you're like Captain Cadaver & believe that any gains in Base during Z didn't become small & infrequent & that Base Saiyans in the Buu Arc could defeat 100% Frieza then I offer you the same just part ways cause we're aren't going anywhere.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Does the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai exist in DragonBall Super ?

It doesn't because Super has yet to cover End of Z material, that much is obvious. Don't see why you're so intent on arguing against that.

2. Maybe those plots are indications that the meeting with Uub is being worked in later.

Yes, because Super takes place in between the defeat of Majin Boo and the End of the manga/Z anime/Kai anime. Again, really don't see why something so obvious is needed to be debated.

If Uub isn't old enough at that point in Super then why couldn't a likely later meeting happen at some point in Super.

Unless Super actually chooses to rewrite the end of Z or go past it, something that's been given no indication to happen (especially when Toriyama has stated the aged appearance of characters like Bulma and Kuririn was a major reason he chose to create a story prior to it), there's absolutely no reason to completely retcon a significant part of the series.

THAT's just a Buff of the initial SuperSaiyan Transformation in which utilizes the benefits in flawed ways.

This is before he went into Grade 2, not after. By your own admission, the SSJ multiplier remains consistent and, as a result, means Vegeta was several times stronger than before in general.

Sure there's gains in Base However there is no suggestion that Base becomes high enough to match 100% Frieza or even 50% Frieza.

Trunks/Goten VS #18, Future Cell being knocked out of West City from Base Trunks' kiai, Shin wanting everyone to gang up on Yakon rather than taking him down himself and the Daizenshuu backing this up by stating he's scared of Yakon, etc.
You're free to argue against such pieces of evidence, but to say that evidence supporting Base Saiyans > Freeza doesn't exist, nevermind only suggesting it, is to completely ignore several noticeable examples. There would be no debate on such a topic if evidence for the Base Saiyans > Freeza side didn't exist.
More to the point, however, is that you explicitly said gains in general became small, whereas the SSJ Vegeta example proves that wrong.

Dude Transformations are Multipliers, they only multiply the current PowerLevel of the user.
Goku goes through each Transformation, why would he bother transforming if he isn't showing his all.
He is directly showing his Full Base Power by showing what each Transformation is multiplying.

You're assuming Beerus would look at this numerically and calculate where Goku's base form stood compared to SSJ, pinponiting the exact moment h reached his full power in base (despite his current control of SSJ being great enough he can tap into the form as though it were his base power as shown in the Cell Arc) and a lot of other assumptions when the fact of the matter is Beerus saw Goku's Super Saiyan form beforehand, saw Goku's regular appearance was different and put 2 and 2 together. His main goal was also to face the Super Saiyan God, so he wouldn't be pedantic enough to say such a forced line as "Oh, I was wrong about your base power" or something as equally unimportant to his motivations.

Then we're not going to get anywhere so just part ways.

Not when you're misunderstanding what people are trying to tell you, no. I can agree to that much at least.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Forget it.
If you're like Captain Cadaver & believe that any gains in Base during Z didn't become small & infrequent & that Base Saiyans in the Buu Arc could defeat 100% Frieza then I offer you the same just part ways cause we're aren't going anywhere.

Us not "going anywhere" is entirely on you.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Spiral-Force[/mention]

Since it is something that the writers tend to do, as you've pointed out, that strengthens my point that the supposed implication of small power gains in lower forms hardly matters in the later segments of the series and onwards. Such isn't even debatable in GT and Super, with events like Base Goku fighting on par with a villain stated to be more powerful than Buu in the Baby Saga, and a Base Vegeta clone making short work of SSJ3 Gotenks in the Copy-Vegeta Saga.

Yeah, it definitely seems to be the case in sequels like Super and GT, though it isn’t clear how they managed to overcome such limits.

As I said previously, you can view the scene as being odd or whatnot, but the actual point is that the writers still went out of their way to showcase the lower forms as being strong and relevant enough to reoccur in fights against foes much stronger than in previous arcs. Definitely doesn't fall in-line with the idea of the lower forms having minimal gains.

Not at all. The same episodes where Goku overwhelms Gohan with his weakest are followed by Goku admitting his strongest form is powerless against Majin Boo. doesn’t sound like they were trying to portray Goku as having made his base and SSJ power surpass his SSJ3 power. It’s just a non-sequitur interlude to fill in time.

Considering Vegeta compared the damage he was taking to what SSJ3 Goku was fighting, the writers were definitely highlighting how tough Vegeta is. This period in the narrative isn't something to be glossed over either since Vegeta's survival was an integral part of the story and played a part in Goku's victory over Buu. Your Satan reference is pretty weak since that was obviously Good Buu's influence at play.[/quote

As both you and CC pointed out, I stand corrected. But as also noted, this feat highlights Vegeta’s toughness that has been consistently portrayed in the series, as opposed to some sort of power up on his regular form. Hard to say someone is somewhat strong based on a beatdown unless you’re suggesting both are close in power.

Btw the original portrayal of the scene had Vegeta making this statement as a SSJ2, which makes far more sense from a power perspective.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Yeah, it definitely seems to be the case in sequels like Super and GT, though it isn’t clear how they managed to overcome such limits.

Yeah, such isn't explained very well in the story, but it is what it is.

Not at all. The same episodes where Goku overwhelms Gohan with his weakest are followed by Goku admitting his strongest form is powerless against Majin Boo. doesn’t sound like they were trying to portray Goku as having made his base and SSJ power surpass his SSJ3 power. It’s just a non-sequitur interlude to fill in time.

There's no statement to suggest the Gohan clone was holding back, and Goku concluded that he has the same power as the real thing after taking his hits, so this definitely does portray Goku as being a beast in his lower states. Your point can easily be flipped to say that Super Buu somehow scaled above that as well, since we see Goku struggle more against him than with the Gohan dupe inside his body, despite the latter maintaining a serious presence while Super Buu was kinda trolling. At the end of the day, the point is basically that if the intention was for the lower forms' gains to be minimal, the writers didn't do a good job at reflecting that.

As both you and CC pointed out, I stand corrected. But as also noted, this feat highlights Vegeta’s toughness that has been consistently portrayed in the series, as opposed to some sort of power up on his regular form. Hard to say someone is somewhat strong based on a beatdown unless you’re suggesting both are close in power.
Btw the original portrayal of the scene had Vegeta making this statement as a SSJ2, which makes far more sense from a power perspective.

While Vegeta's toughness was previously noted in earlier arcs, he never held out against someone on Buu's level of power & fierceness back then, so this is different. I'm not using this for a specific power scale, it's just an analysis of what the writers were conveying, particularly series-wise.

 

[VampireWicked]

Forget it.
If you're like Captain Cadaver & believe that any gains in Base during Z didn't become small & infrequent & that Base Saiyans in the Buu Arc could defeat 100% Frieza then I offer you the same just part ways cause we're aren't going anywhere.

Us not "going anywhere" is entirely on you.

It's going nowhere because you won't accept any thing even the slightest possibility beyond your own interpretations.
Don't hold me responsible for your own stubbornness when you've already made up your mind from day 1.

You wanna go forward, okay.
Explain to me how Base Saiyans by Buu arc can defeat 50% -100% Frieza when there's nothing suggesting they could?

It doesn't because Super has yet to cover End of Z material, that much is obvious. Don't see why you're so intent on arguing against that.

What the heck are you talking about????
I never suggested it did.

The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai doesn't exist yet if at all in Super, so using Uub as a measuring stick for Goku or Base Saiyans cannot be used as that has not happened.

That End of Z match between Uub & Goku has been erased by DragonBall Super, apparently something you & SpiralF insist on using as any sort of evidence claiming Base Saiyans can defeat 100% Frieza.

Yes, because Super takes place in between the defeat of Majin Boo and the End of the manga/Z anime/Kai anime. Again, really don't see why something so obvious is needed to be debated.

I'm Not Debating it.
I am saying the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai is not the end of DragonBall Z anymore.
DragonBall Super is the current DragonBall story, Z was finished with BattleOf The Gods.

Unless Super actually chooses to rewrite the end of Z or go past it, something that's been given no indication to happen (especially when Toriyama has stated the aged appearance of characters like Bulma and Kuririn was a major reason he chose to create a story prior to it), there's absolutely no reason to completely retcon a significant part of the series.

You don't have that decision.
If Akra Toriyama does recton it then you'll have to accept it.

This is before he went into Grade 2, not after. By your own admission, the SSJ multiplier remains consistent and, as a result, means Vegeta was several times stronger than before in general.

I never said the Multiplier change, I never argue that.
G2, G3 is just a Buff of the same Transformation exceeding more Ki then the user can properly Control.
Hence FLAWED.

YES Saiyan Base PowerLevel Increased, but there's nothing saying it Increased placing them on equal or higher ground than Frieza.

Trunks/Goten VS #18, Future Cell being knocked out of West City from Base Trunks' kiai, Shin wanting everyone to gang up on Yakon rather than taking him down himself and the Daizenshuu backing this up by stating he's scared of Yakon, etc.
You're free to argue against such pieces of evidence, but to say that evidence supporting Base Saiyans > Freeza doesn't exist, nevermind only suggesting it, is to completely ignore several noticeable examples. There would be no debate on such a topic if evidence for the Base Saiyans > Freeza side didn't exist.
More to the point, however, is that you explicitly said gains in general became small, whereas the SSJ Vegeta example proves that wrong.

Reaching.
Android18 vs KidTrunks & KidGoten is based on a tournament match not a life or death battle.
Where is it said Android18 had to go all out vs Base KidTrunks & KidGoten.

2. More powerful enemies has been knocked down by weaker individuals, really Final Frieza has been knocked down by Piccolo.

3. quote=Kili]1 Kiri = 50,000 BP according to a 2004 V-Jump issue.

Yakon: 800 kiri Dragon Ball Chapter 451
Super Saiyan Goku: 3,000 kiri Dragon Ball Chapter 451
Dabra: over 4,000 kiri Dragon Ball Z Episode 223[/quote]

You're assuming Beerus would look at this numerically and calculate where Goku's base form stood compared to SSJ, pinponiting the exact moment h reached his full power in base (despite his current control of SSJ being great enough he can tap into the form as though it were his base power as shown in the Cell Arc) and a lot of other assumptions when the fact of the matter is Beerus saw Goku's Super Saiyan form beforehand, saw Goku's regular appearance was different and put 2 and 2 together. His main goal was also to face the Super Saiyan God, so he wouldn't be pedantic enough to say such a forced line as "Oh, I was wrong about your base power" or something as equally unimportant to his motivations.

That's an assumption.

 

[Spiral-Force]

It's going nowhere because you won't accept any thing even the slightest possibility beyond your own interpretations.
Don't hold me responsible for your own stubbornness when you've already made up your mind from day 1.

What have I not accepted? Spouting something is pretty meaningless if you can't back yourself up. Being emotionally-driven is not going to help you either. If anything, you're the one that hasn't been accepting things, with a recent example being you not accepting what the end of DBZ is.

You wanna go forward, okay.
Explain to me how Base Saiyans by Buu arc can defeat 50% -100% Frieza when there's nothing suggesting they could?

That wasn't even my argument. I made an argument for EoZ Base Goku, which you even acknowledged as being fine, so we didn't expand on that. You must be mixing me up with CC, who made an argument relating to your current question and provided examples for that viewpoint. If you want to continue discussing, address my most recent points made towards you (i.e. the post you responded to with "forget it"). If you're not up to it, then there's not much else left to say.