POWER LEVEL LIMIT FOR SAIYAN BASE ?

[Captain Cadaver]

The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai doesn't exist yet if at all in Super, so using Uub as a measuring stick for Goku or Base Saiyans cannot be used as that has not happened.

That's what I've been telling you on why Oob wouldn't be brought up at all in Super as a constant measuring stick. At least you're getting that part now.

That End of Z match between Uub & Goku has been erased by DragonBall Super, apparently something you & SpiralF insist on using as any sort of evidence claiming Base Saiyans can defeat 100% Frieza.

That's not the same as being erased. Super has yet to come close to touching events at the End of Z or giving any indication of showing it will be changed drastically. This would be the equivalent of saying A New Hope from Star Wars is erased because a new story such as Rogue One takes place before it, despite that being far from the case.

I am saying the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai is not the end of DragonBall Z anymore.

It quite literally is and has been given no indication for not being, even having this part of the story retained in Kai.

DragonBall Super is the current DragonBall story, Z was finished with Battle Of Gods.

Dragon Ball Super is a story that takes place in between the Majin Boo Arc and the End of Z. It doesn't erase nor override the latter as of yet, so sticking to this line of thought that Toriyama hasn't confirmed and even debunked with him continuing to reintroduce ideas integral to the End of Z such as Oob, Pan, Bra, etc. is completely nonsensical. If you can't accept this much, there's really no helping you on this matter.

If Akra Toriyama does recton it then you'll have to accept it.

Indeed, something that he has yet to do whatsoever. Again, you're going off some weird assumption without any evidence behind it.

I never said the Multiplier change, I never argue that.
G2, G3 is just a Buff of the same Transformation exceeding more Ki then the user can properly Control.
Hence FLAWED.

Which still doesn't address nor contradict regular SSJ Vegeta coming close to 2nd form Cell's level.

YES Saiyan Base PowerLevel Increased, but there's nothing saying it Increased placing them on equal or higher ground than Frieza.

Leaving the Freeza debate aside, it still shows that the Saiyans were able to make great gains after Namek, something you said wasn't the case. Now, do you concede on that point or not?

Reaching.

Not as much as believing Beerus having the common sense to tell the difference in appearance between Base Goku and the SSJ Goku he saw beat Freeza is solid evidence for 100% Freeza > Post-Boo Base Goku.

Android18 vs KidTrunks & KidGoten is based on a tournament match not a life or death battle.
Where is it said Android18 had to go all out vs Base KidTrunks & KidGoten.

Trunks fighting equally with #18 was something the Daizenshuu went out of its way to point out, treating it as significant and #18 was aware of Mighty Mask not being ordinary. If she really was so far above them, there's no reason she couldn't put in enough effort to KO her opponent without dealing fatal damage, as we've been shown she can hold back her effort when she fought Vegeta.

2. More powerful enemies has been knocked down by weaker individuals, really Final Frieza has been knocked down by Piccolo.

By an off-guard attack, unlike Cell. Freeza didn't use this to concede that Piccolo had improved either.

3. quote=Kili]1 Kiri = 50,000 BP according to a 2004 V-Jump issue.

It's also stated that 200 or 300 Kili is required to destroy a planet, despite it being evident 18k Vegeta can do so. Moreover, that flawed piece of evidence still doesn't address the Daizenshuu very clearly stating Shin is scared of Yakon.

That's an assumption.

No more so than believing Beerus would do something as out of character as redact a point made about a lesser form he has no interest in or that a basic analysis of a difference in appearance has some deeper meaning.

 

[VampireWicked]

What have I not accepted? Spouting something is pretty meaningless if you can't back yourself up. Being emotionally-driven is not going to help you either. If anything, you're the one that hasn't been accepting things, with a recent example being you not accepting what the end of DBZ is.

What's to get emotional over when your argument isn't something that's gonna make or break anything for me really.

2. You haven't offered me anything beyond your own interpretations what is there to accept passed that.

That wasn't even my argument. I made an argument for EoZ Base Goku, which you even acknowledged as being fine, so we didn't expand on that. You must be mixing me up with CC, who made an argument relating to your current question and provided examples for that viewpoint. If you want to continue discussing, address my most recent points made towards you (i.e. the post you responded to with "forget it"). If you're not up to it, then there's not much else left to say.

Oh I am.
That's your argument "Frieza still thought they couldn't match him (which Goku proved wrong)".
I said Frieza was right in that Goku in Base couldn't.
I asked you could without Transformation could Goku have defeated Frieza, what was your answer again ?


The screens I posted contradicts Your End Of Z argument making it irrelevant.
The match betwenn Uub & Goku at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai hass not happened & does not exist & may not exist yet in DragonBall Super the same way it originally did in Z.

So you cannot claim Base Saiyans increased to whatever point using Uub vs Goku until it has been written in Super.

Beeurs assessment was surface level is a BS excuse to avoid accepting what he said.
Goku in Base cannot Defeat Frieza.
You can choose to accept it or not but you sticking to that poor excuse it's you who's writing the Fan-Fic.


There isn't anything left for you to say because you aren't saying anything to begin with.

That's what I've been telling you on why Oob wouldn't be brought up at all in Super as a constant measuring stick. At least you're getting that part now.

I already knew that THAT'S WHY I SAID IT'S NOT Z's END.
Super has written & changed the continuity.

That's not the same as being erased. Super has yet to come close to touching events at the End of Z or giving any indication of showing it will be changed drastically. This would be the equivalent of saying A New Hope from Star Wars is erased because a new story such as Rogue One takes place before it, despite that being far from the case.

It doesn't exist in Z as Super continues after the defeat of Buu & before The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.
So if it hasn't happened yet in Super then it's gone.

Which still doesn't address nor contradict regular SSJ Vegeta coming close to 2nd form Cell's level.

Again not denying the Multiplier doesn't change from x50.
There is no evidence of gains being large enogh that Base > 50%-100% Frieza.

Leaving the Freeza debate aside, it still shows that the Saiyans were able to make great gains after Namek, something you said wasn't the case. Now, do you concede on that point or not?

No because the gains have to be large enough where Beerus is wrong & he wasn't.

Not as much as believing Beerus having the common sense to tell the difference in appearance between Base Goku and the SSJ Goku he saw beat Freeza is solid evidence for 100% Freeza > Post-Boo Base Goku.

By an off-guard attack, unlike Cell. Freeza didn't use this to concede that Piccolo had improved either.

Then give me something saying within the time frame of the defeat of Frieza on Namek to The Battle Of Gods that Base Goku had a PowerLevel even the same as 100% Frieza.

Trunks fighting equally with #18 was something the Daizenshuu went out of its way to point out, treating it as significant and #18 was aware of Mighty Mask not being ordinary. If she really was so far above them, there's no reason she couldn't put in enough effort to KO her opponent without dealing fatal damage, as we've been shown she can hold back her effort when she fought Vegeta.

Prove she was taking it as serious as life threatening & she went all out against Base KidTrunks/KidGoten.

It's also stated that 200 or 300 Kili is required to destroy a planet, despite it being evident 18k Vegeta can do so. Moreover, that flawed piece of evidence still doesn't address the Daizenshuu very clearly stating Shin is scared of Yakon.

Shin is a stupid clueless character in Z who is more hyped than acion.
Shin didn't know how powerful Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, were so why would I take him as any indication of power accuracy.

No more so than believing Beerus would do something as out of character as redact a point made about a lesser form he has no interest in or that a basic analysis of a difference in appearance has some deeper meaning.

Beerus is More believable than Shin.
Beerus actually fought Goku in each Transformation & still didn't withdraw the statement.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It doesn't exist in Z as Super continues after the defeat of Buu & before The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.
So if it hasn't happened yet in Super then it's gone.

You really need to learn how continuity works if that's what you believe. The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai can only be considered erased from continuity if Super does something to outright make it impossible to happen or rewrites it entirely, yet every instance of future events being hinted at such as the mentions of Oob in Super make it apparent these events are still part of the canon. You are making baseless assumptions and twisting what is a fact. If you can't grasp that much, there's really no point continuing this "discussion".
Regardless of whether or not Toriyama does change the ending of Z/the original manga, that proves irrelevant to discussing Base Goku's power during it as Base Goku's feats after training with Whis have proven him to go far beyond his previous levels such as overpowering True form Freeza when his 1st form could demolish SSJ Gohan, fighting evenly with the Copy Vegeta who trashed SS3 Gotenks, etc. If anything, taking Super into account would make 28th TB Base Goku (or whatever his assumed retcon equivalent is in your headcanon) vastly stronger.

No because the gains have to be large enough where Beerus is wrong & he wasn't.

I wasn't using the SSJ Vegeta example to argue Base Saiyans > Freeza. I was arguing that this shows the idea that gains in general became small after Namek is false. Becoming several times stronger in general isn't a small increase.

Then give me something saying within the time frame of the defeat of Frieza on Namek to The Battle Of Gods that Base Goku had a PowerLevel even the same as 100% Frieza.

I already have, unless you're conveniently ignoring my and Spiral Force's points.

Prove she was taking it as serious as life threatening & she went all out against Base KidTrunks/KidGoten.

Firstly, your demand is a complete strawman as almost every character has shown the ability to fight seriously and at full power without their life or their opponent's being at stake. Secondly, she is never suggested to be holding back during the fight after realising Mighty Mask's strength. If anything, I should be demanding you prove she was holding back when she's already been shown to be able to freely control her level of effort and be able to use her full power without killing an opponent.
Alongside that, you also have Vegeta being confident in being the strongest at the Tenkaichi Budokai after hearing about the no Super Saiyan rule, despite being aware #18 would be competing.

Shin didn't know how powerful Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, were so why would I take him as any indication of power accuracy.

He clearly knew Yakon to the point he was able to instantly recognising, implying some familiarity between them, and he still made it apparent he could oneshot Freeza. If a character can oneshot Freeza and is scared enough of someone he's clearly familiar with to the point they wish to gang up on them straight away, it's fairly obvious where the latter stands.
If anything, Shin's reactions to the Saiyans further supports the Base Saiyans being so strong. He said to Goku when they first met he didn't believe he'd be able to beat Goku, yet is in awe at Vegeta's strength when he kills Puipui.

Beerus is More believable than Shin.

Context is important. As I said, Shin is clearly aware of who Yakon is, so saying him underestimating the Base Saiyans makes anything he says irrelevant regardless of what experience he has in the matter is a false equivalence.

Beerus actually fought Goku in each Transformation & still didn't withdraw the statement.

Again, you're assuming this is a power statement of Base Goku rather than Beerus clearly noting the appearance of Goku doesn't match up with what he saw in Whis' crystal ball. Both interpretations can be considered valid, though one is supported by feats from the manga whereas the other is supported by purely contradictive guidebook statements and conjecture.
Also, as you said, Beerus fought each of Goku's transformations. He never fought Base Goku nor had a chance to feel out his full power when he went straight to Super Saiyan with little breathing room, so this point holds no weight. Furthermore, your idea that Beerus would correct himself so quickly if proven wrong doesn't work for the anime where it takes a while before Beerus confirms SSJ Goku is stronger than Freeza, making this strawman of him definitely immediately correcting himself about Base Goku's power if it was indeed above Freeza's for the fraction of a second before his transformation proven wrong.

 

[Spiral-Force]

What's to get emotional over when your argument isn't something that's gonna make or break anything for me really.
2. You haven't offered me anything beyond your own interpretations what is there to accept passed that.

You're all over the place and have trouble accepting basic things, so you seem to be coming from a place of emotion rather than logic. The points I've made have been rational, and pertain to taking the story for what it is; that's why I can reference the story material seamlessly and with solid relevancy. In contrast, you rely on subjective thoughts, post a bunch of extra information that does not aid your argument, and delude yourself into thinking you've done anything adequate in the debate.

Oh I am.
That's your argument "Frieza still thought they couldn't match him (which Goku proved wrong)".
I said Frieza was right in that Goku in Base couldn't.
I asked you could without Transformation could Goku have defeated Frieza, what was your answer again ?

You actually said:

Frizea was actually right in that Saiyans had hidden power, & he was right in that Saiyans could not match.

When Frieza said that Saiyans couldn't match him, he did not specify base or any other limiting factors, so your conclusion that Frieza is right is based on an assumption that you created rather than the actual statement. Ultimately, Frieza is wrong regardless of where you place the Base Saiyans, rendering your question unnecessary.

The screens I posted contradicts Your End Of Z argument making it irrelevant.
The match betwenn Uub & Goku at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai hass not happened & does not exist & may not exist yet in DragonBall Super the same way it originally did in Z.
So you cannot claim Base Saiyans increased to whatever point using Uub vs Goku until it has been written in Super.

Those screenshots do not help you in the slightest. The first screenshot was just a movie synopsis and had no rebuttal, and the second screenshot makes it clear that they are not sure how the storyline will tie-in with the events seen 10 years later, if at all. It isn't stated that those events became non-existent.

As it currently stands, the end of DBZ is the final chapters/episodes of it. The events may or may not be revamped or rewritten in the future, but the focal point is the present.

Beeurs assessment was surface level is a BS excuse to avoid accepting what he said.
Goku in Base cannot Defeat Frieza.
You can choose to accept it or not but you sticking to that poor excuse it's you who's writing the Fan-Fic.

It's not an excuse; it's exactly what's displayed. His assessment was a brief evaluation of Goku's appearance, which doesn't speak volumes about the ki within him. You hold tightly to this line of reasoning for Frieza > Base Goku, yet it's so weak and superficial.

There isn't anything left for you to say because you aren't saying anything to begin with.

Already said plenty. You can't move past the bubble you're in, which obstructs the conversation from progressing much further. Your argument isn't strong enough to get past what's already laid out on the table.

 

[VampireWicked]

You really need to learn how continuity works if that's what you believe. The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai can only be considered erased from continuity if Super does something to outright make it impossible to happen or rewrites it entirely, yet every instance of future events being hinted at such as the mentions of Oob in Super make it apparent these events are still part of the canon. You are making baseless assumptions and twisting what is a fact. If you can't grasp that much, there's really no point continuing this "discussion".
Regardless of whether or not Toriyama does change the ending of Z/the original manga, that proves irrelevant to discussing Base Goku's power during it as Base Goku's feats after training with Whis have proven him to go far beyond his previous levels such as overpowering True form Freeza when his 1st form could demolish SSJ Gohan, fighting evenly with the Copy Vegeta who trashed SS3 Gotenks, etc. If anything, taking Super into account would make 28th TB Base Goku (or whatever his assumed retcon equivalent is in your headcanon) vastly stronger.

I know how continuity works & it's not present in Super yet.
Even if it was it's still irrelevant, that's what you aren't grasping.

The statement made by Beerus from that point on back says Base Saiyans or to be exact Base Goku cannot defeat Frieza.
Now spin it as you wish that Beerus was looking only at the surface or he wasn't really focused on that.

Whatever the BS excuse is that is a Goku before training with Whis, before the Tournament Of Power, Before etc etc in DragonBall Super really got started.

So using Goku beyond that point as evidence doesn't do much for your argument.

I wasn't using the SSJ Vegeta example to argue Base Saiyans > Freeza. I was arguing that this shows the idea that gains in general became small after Namek is false. Becoming several times stronger in general isn't a small increase.

I already have, unless you're conveniently ignoring my and Spiral Force's points.

I know exactly what you were using it for & saying their gains were several times stronger isn't proof of Saiyan Base gains becoming high enough to match 50%-100% Frieza.

Firstly, your demand is a complete strawman as almost every character has shown the ability to fight seriously and at full power without their life or their opponent's being at stake. Secondly, she is never suggested to be holding back during the fight after realising Mighty Mask's strength. If anything, I should be demanding you prove she was holding back when she's already been shown to be able to freely control her level of effort and be able to use her full power without killing an opponent.
Alongside that, you also have Vegeta being confident in being the strongest at the Tenkaichi Budokai after hearing about the no Super Saiyan rule, despite being aware #18 would be competing.

I don't care what you call it ALMOST isn't every character every situation.

Beeurs who is looking for SuperSaiyan God or anything on that level, tells Goku he cannot beat Frieza, then fights Goku who says I'll give you all I got & goes through each & everyone of his Transformations but can't tell from this how powerful he is in Base cause what Goku wasn't seriously at full power.

Yet Android18 never stated to be serious, in a freaking Tournament no less is based on your argument totally going full power struggling to keep up with Base KidTrunks/KidGoten.

C'mon.

He clearly knew Yakon to the point he was able to instantly recognising, implying some familiarity between them, and he still made it apparent he could oneshot Freeza. If a character can oneshot Freeza and is scared enough of someone he's clearly familiar with to the point they wish to gang up on them straight away, it's fairly obvious where the latter stands.
If anything, Shin's reactions to the Saiyans further supports the Base Saiyans being so strong. He said to Goku when they first met he didn't believe he'd be able to beat Goku, yet is in awe at Vegeta's strength when he kills Puipui.

Context is important. As I said, Shin is clearly aware of who Yakon is, so saying him underestimating the Base Saiyans makes anything he says irrelevant regardless of what experience he has in the matter is a false equivalence.

Shin was a little wuss, everyone was a threat to him, shin appearing to oneshot Frieza (which Form Frieza was never stated) isn't the same as him actually doing so.

Shin isn't an accurate measuring stick to use for anyone, him being in awe at Vegeta's strength when he kills Puipui who's weaker than Yakon who in turn is weaker not even 50% Frieza just shows how uninformed he is when it comes to their power.

Again, you're assuming this is a power statement of Base Goku rather than Beerus clearly noting the appearance of Goku doesn't match up with what he saw in Whis' crystal ball. Both interpretations can be considered valid, though one is supported by feats from the manga whereas the other is supported by purely contradictive guidebook statements and conjecture.
Also, as you said, Beerus fought each of Goku's transformations. He never fought Base Goku nor had a chance to feel out his full power when he went straight to Super Saiyan with little breathing room, so this point holds no weight. Furthermore, your idea that Beerus would correct himself so quickly if proven wrong doesn't work for the anime where it takes a while before Beerus confirms SSJ Goku is stronger than Freeza, making this strawman of him definitely immediately correcting himself about Base Goku's power if it was indeed above Freeza's for the fraction of a second before his transformation proven wrong.

You are reaching here.
Saiyan Transformations do not Multiply part of Base, if they did there would be no point in going SuperSaiyan when 20Times Kaioken could suffice.

Nothing is contradicted when both Manga & Anime have feats that gives Goku ample opportunity to reveal his power & potential.
He did & Beerus was not impressed nor did he withdraw his earlier statement.

You're all over the place and have trouble accepting basic things, so you seem to be coming from a place of emotion rather than logic. The points I've made have been rational, and pertain to taking the story for what it is; that's why I can reference the story material seamlessly and with solid relevancy. In contrast, you rely on subjective thoughts, post a bunch of extra information that does not aid your argument, and delude yourself into thinking you've done anything adequate in the debate.

You seem to come from a place of empty talking points & meaningless assumptions.

When Frieza said that Saiyans couldn't match him, he did not specify base or any other limiting factors, so your conclusion that Frieza is right is based on an assumption that you created rather than the actual statement. Ultimately, Frieza is wrong regardless of where you place the Base Saiyans, rendering your question unnecessary.

Answer the question.
Could Base Goku have beaten Frieza?

Frieza's claim came from that assuption, & on that he was right.
That's why the question is unnecessary, because you know it makes him right.

Those screenshots do not help you in the slightest. The first screenshot was just a movie synopsis and had no rebuttal, and the second screenshot makes it clear that they are not sure how the storyline will tie-in with the events seen 10 years later, if at all. It isn't stated that those events became non-existent.

They help plenty as it makes you bringing up Uub irrelevant.

It's not an excuse; it's exactly what's displayed. His assessment was a brief evaluation of Goku's appearance, which doesn't speak volumes about the ki within him. You hold tightly to this line of reasoning for Frieza > Base Goku, yet it's so weak and superficial.

Your complete excuse.
Beerus is a God Of Destruction who took the opportunity to fight a much lesser being & did not re-track his statement.
More so Whis did not make any correction either.

Already said plenty. You can't move past the bubble you're in, which obstructs the conversation from progressing much further. Your argument isn't strong enough to get past what's already laid out on the table.

I'm already looking far past your weak arguments.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I know how continuity works & it's not present in Super yet.

You clearly don't if you can't grasp that Super takes place between the Boo Arc and the End of Z with no evidence to the latter being retconned.

The statement made by Beerus from that point on back says Base Saiyans or to be exact Base Goku cannot defeat Frieza.
Now spin it as you wish that Beerus was looking only at the surface or he wasn't really focused on that.

Even if accepting this (despite it indeed being a surface level judgement of appearance), that Base Goku < Namek Freeza wasn't the case in later events of Super set prior to Z's conclusion in the timeline, hence why Spiral Force's point is still valid.

I know exactly what you were using it for

If that really was the case, you'd be able to comprehend I was referring to this statement by you:

Also stated that gains by the end of Namek were small.

I don't care what you call it ALMOST isn't every character every situation.

If 99% of characters are able to control their full power (in tournaments, no less) and #18 has been shown to be fully capable of controlling her power and effort without causing fatalities, that says all that's necessary.

Beeurs who is looking for SuperSaiyan God or anything on that level, tells Goku he cannot beat Frieza, then fights Goku who says I'll give you all I got & goes through each & everyone of his Transformations but can't tell from this how powerful he is in Base cause what Goku wasn't seriously at full power.

You still haven't provided a clear contradiction to Vegeta's statement about his chances at the 25th TB not having changed. If anything, having to resort to this single point again further proves how Freeza > Base Saiyans relies on only one statement, with the counter-evidence for it relying on several and further supporting Beerus' statement as being flawed and/or surface level.

Yet Android18 never stated to be serious, in a freaking Tournament no less is based on your argument totally going full power struggling to keep up with Base KidTrunks/KidGoten.

So by your logic, Goku and Piccolo weren't serious when fighting each other at the 23rd TB?

Shin was a little wuss, everyone was a threat to him,

That further supports the powers of the Base Saiyans, if anything.

shin appearing to oneshot Frieza (which Form Frieza was never stated) isn't the same as him actually doing so.

Not only would there be no point to refer to this feat if he was incapable of doing so, but there'd be no point in referring to anything less than Freeza's peak, nor would doing so hold any merit in impressing Goku. Furthermore, it referring to Freeza's peak is backed up by supplementary material such as the sub-story in DBZ Kakarot or guidebook entries on Shin's power in general.

Shin isn't an accurate measuring stick to use for anyone, him being in awe at Vegeta's strength when he kills Puipui who's weaker than Yakon who in turn is weaker not even 50% Frieza just shows how uninformed he is when it comes to their power.

The last part is your own assumption. If anything, Shin's reaction shows how much stronger those characters are compared to Freeza.

You are reaching here.

Reaching would be your notion that Goku had "ample opportunity" to show his full power in base during the fraction of a second it took for him to prepare to transform into a Super Saiyan and that, likewise, Beerus would sense him in that time; particularly when Goku is aware of how incredible Beerus is supposed to be and in both continuities, Beerus didn't immediately confirm Goku to be above Freeza's level until after they started fighting when he apparently had "ample opportunity" to correct himself beforehand.

Saiyan Transformations do not Multiply part of Base, if they did there would be no point in going SuperSaiyan when 20Times Kaioken could suffice.

Not only did I never say transformations automatically buff your base power or anything of the sort, but Super Saiyan would be a preferable option to Kaioken regardless when the latter is incredibly risky to the body.

You seem to come from a place of empty talking points & meaningless assumptions.
Your complete excuse.
I'm already looking far past your weak arguments.

And this is why we've been meandering on similar topics for so long. Your shrugging off the evidence of the opposition and demanding them to prove themselves whilst not sticking to the same standard when arguing against their points in what essentially amounts to a verbose "No u" and, as Spiral Force said, not accepting anything beyond your own interpretation is what has led this going nowhere and limited any chance of an honest discussion.
Either learn to participate in an honest, civil discussion, or be prevented from doing so on this forum. This is your warning.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Spiral-Force[/mention]
[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

What do you guys think about Vegeta mentioning he ran into his own limits and the rage for doing so awakened him into a SSJ? Many take that as the base reaching a limit post the achieving of the SSJ and the latter being their only means of gaining power.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Unless you were to believe the boost given by SSJ is relativistic when considering SSJ Vegeta after the Rosat is shown to be far stronger than before it, then that wouldn't work. If believing that and SSJ's boost is as great as the plot requires, it could potentially work, but there's a lot of evidence within the Boo Arc that'd contradict that line of thinking.
On top of that, the term "limits" is constantly treat as something with validity only extending to a character's personal opinion rather than a universal law, with such situations as the Choshinsui being described as drawing out what hidden power someone has within them or how Goku makes a commentary on the whole limits matter by describing Elder Kaioshin's ability as fairly common when hearing about him drawing someone far beyond their limits. The term had become so overused and contradicted within the series even the characters were taking jabs at it.
Moreover, the idea that a Saiyan must reach their limits in Base to attain SSJ is contradicted by Trunks The Story in which Base Gohan is shown putting up a fight (and seemingly having the edge) in a sparring match with SSJ Trunks.

 

[Spiral-Force]

[mention]ahill1[/mention]

It seems that Vegeta was speaking in terms of the training itself, which he said was hell to endure. Sometimes characters will say they are at their limit when they've used up most, if not all, of their power. In the flashback it showed in the anime, he could barely move and was shaking before he finally transformed for the first time.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

^That, and Goku's training on the way to Namek described him as surpassing "Saiyan limits", further tying into DB's idea of limits fitting with the Bruce Lee quote of "There are no limits, only plateaus to overcome."

 

[Spiral-Force]

You seem to come from a place of empty talking points & meaningless assumptions.

This description actually fits what you've been doing. Yet instead of taking this as a learning experience, you choose to stay at a level in which you're just easy to pick-apart.

Answer the question.
Could Base Goku have beaten Frieza?
Frieza's claim came from that assuption, & on that he was right.
That's why the question is unnecessary, because you know it makes him right.

Unless you can show me evidence of Frieza merely referring to base form, your point remains ineffectual, as does your question. When someone makes a bold claim that is proven to be false, it remains false regardless of what may have influenced them to make the claim. Even in the face of Super Saiyan Goku, he still couldn't accept defeat or inferiority.

They help plenty as it makes you bringing up Uub irrelevant.

Except they don't since you've shown no evidence that the EoZ events are obsolete. The Super version of Uub wasn't even part of the discussion until you irrelevantly brought him up.

Your complete excuse.
Beerus is a God Of Destruction who took the opportunity to fight a much lesser being & did not re-track his statement.
More so Whis did not make any correction either.

Not an excuse, just the truth. And since Goku is a "much lesser being" like you said, this augments my point that it's not something Beerus should care about correcting. Whis scales even higher than Beerus, so the same applies to him.

I'm already looking far past your weak arguments.

Your attempt at rhetoric just backfires since it lacks substance and sincerity.

 

[ahill1]

@ahill1

It seems that Vegeta was speaking in terms of the training itself, which he said was hell to endure. Sometimes characters will say they are at their limit when they've used up most, if not all, of their power. In the flashback it showed in the anime, he could barely move and was shaking before he finally transformed for the first time.

So maybe... mental limits? Like, the training regimen had been too much up until that point and he couldn't take it anymore?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That could be the case, though that would related more to stamina rather than raw power and Ki.

 

[Spiral-Force]

So maybe... mental limits? Like, the training regimen had been too much up until that point and he couldn't take it anymore?

Exhaustion as a whole. Vegeta is known to overthink and overwork, after all.

 

[ahill1]

So maybe... mental limits? Like, the training regimen had been too much up until that point and he couldn't take it anymore?

Exhaustion as a whole. Vegeta is known to overthink and overwork, after all.

That makes sense. We retroactively include strength gains to the "limits" word used by him, but I think this is a good angle.

But do you think the "exhaustion" would be referring to a single day of his training regimen? Like, the other day he would be going over the same path? I say this because at least going by the VIZ translations, in which he says "I eventually ran through a wall, my own limits", it seems unlikely the limits were limited to an one day time spam.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

"Walls" usually tend to refer to the kind of gains someone can make from their current training regimes, something applicable both to DB and real life. There's only so far you can take the same routine such as typical gravity training before there's not much it has to offer without adding something extra. This is a major reason why most characters required new training regimes such as the Rosat. For instance, Vegeta describes the conditions of the Rosat as perfect for his training and in the Boo Arc was excited to see the results of Goku's training in Other World and both later commented on how hard each must have trained, despite Goku having said he'd hit his current limits after his Rosat training.

 

[ahill1]

"Walls" usually tend to refer to the kind of gains someone can make from their current training regimes, something applicable both to DB and real life. There's only so far you can take the same routine such as typical gravity training before there's not much it has to offer without adding something extra. This is a major reason why most characters required new training regimes such as the Rosat. For instance, Vegeta describes the conditions of the Rosat as perfect for his training and in the Boo Arc was excited to see the results of Goku's training in Other World and both later commented on how hard each must have trained, despite Goku having said he'd hit his current limits after his Rosat training.

True, but then Vegeta was seen profusely training at 150G in the gravity chamber by the Boo arc...

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That would suggest he mixed up his training methods. That level of gravity is half of what he was training in prior to achieving Super Saiyan, so he may have been going for something such as less intensity and more reps, for example. It's made pretty apparent that he achieved SS2 during those 7 years, so being able to do so when he'd already hit a wall with his previous regime would make little sense.

 

[Spiral-Force]

But do you think the "exhaustion" would be referring to a single day of his training regimen? Like, the other day he would be going over the same path? I say this because at least going by the VIZ translations, in which he says "I eventually ran through a wall, my own limits", it seems unlikely the limits were limited to an one day time spam.

I checked out the Viz quote and Vegeta didn't use the word "eventually".

He appears to be speaking of an instance, which the anime supports by focusing on a specific training scene in a flashback when he mentioned his limits.

So Vegeta went through hellish training as a whole, but one day he got to a point where he was completely burnt out and the anger he felt towards himself was significant enough for him to ascend.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The “eventually” is present on Herms’ translation.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

It does seem to give off that idea for me. Vegeta didn’t even want to become a Super Saiyan, he wanted to surpass Goku without relying on the same method as him, but was eventually forced to accept his limits and become a Super Saiyan.