Raditz Discussion

[SSJ2]

Here is my opinion on his levels...

http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9060

 

[p123]

Ok, so explain what raising his attacks would mean?

What does this mean if he didn't power up Vic?

Piccolo: “To think that our levels would be so different…!

 

[Victorious]

Well yeah that seems to imply Piccolo was ignorant of his true power. So is Raditz just shocked because they can amp their ki so hi? I mean he was really surprised at Goku's KHH and flat out terrified and astonished by the Makankosappo.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea, that's exactly it. Two lower class earth scum could mplify their ki > 2x a piece, whereas he could obviously not himself.

 

[ahill1]

Raditz didn't power up in the traditional sense, it was more of an effort thing, I think. Still, the fact that he was just walking around casually and not exerting himself seemed to have fooled Goku and Piccolo's chi sensing, since the latter stated Raditz hadn't shown power like this before or something like this. To sum it up, Raditz is even stronger than what they had thought.

Goku at least stated it'd have been a fight when both him and Piccolo took their weights off and Piccolo stated they had, albeit a small, chance of beating up Raditz, and he didn't know about Raditz's weakness. I don't think Piccolo was factoring his Makankosappo there when he made such statement. So, I think a 60% gap between initial Raditz and Goku/Piccolo (non weights) to be kinda too much considering Jheese and Butta couldn't do anything to Goku when they teamed up and their strategy (betting on Jheese's crusher ball and Butta's speed) failed miserably. 70% sounds okay I guess.

Goku/Piccolo (weighted) : 180
Goku Piccolo (non-weighted) : 225
Raditz (initially) : 320
Raditz (full power) : 400
Goku's KMHMH : 400
Raditz (full power) : 500
Piccolo's Makankosappo : 550

I would have gone with something like this if there weren't the scouter numbers.

 

[p123]

Oh, but he did know about Raditz weakness. That is the whole game plan going in ahill. The game plan is to survive long enough to be able to grab the tail. They had zero chance in winning if not for the tail grab strategy. That's what many are missing here.

You have Raditz at full power twice. You mean powered up Raditz right for 400?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. No, they weren't fake withheld. Quit making garbage up. Nothing suggests that Goku/Piccolo have any more power in them after Raditz scouter reading after removing their weights. Only the Kamehameha and Special Beam Cannon go above that threshold.

2. 1.5x gap is probably appropriate. Their chances are slim and none and they are basing them winning the fight on a strategy that consists of weakening Raditz by grabbing his tail. Without the tail weakness, it's unlikely that they would think they had a shot.

3. What Goku did against Jeice/Burter seems to be on par with what Raditz did to Goku/Piccolo. Are you not comparing the fights? Raditz even states he's holding back power as well.

4. Your debating has gotten really bad man. It's like you play devil's advocate just for the sake of it, you need to shape up or it won't be worth my time to continue with you.

1. Nothing except it had already been suggested at 23rd TB and furthermore later suggested at Saiyans Saga, when Vegeta clearly
stated that the 981, 1083 and 1220 readings were fake. Unless you wanna argue that those were also their real powers at Saiyans
Saga, excluding blasts.

2. Piccolo did not seem to take tail grabbing into consideration when he said 'the two of us might be just enough'.

3. Except Raditz started the 2 on 1 fight using greater power than what Piccolo expected when he made his statement about the
two of them having some hope. The duo was surprised right away. Piccolo said 'he did not show such power before'.

4. My debating did not change. I have had these theories for years. You are the one who changed. You used to be the only debater
i reagrded as my equal. Now i know i'm the unrivaled king.

 

[p123]

Those powers were stated to be suppressed. Goku/Piccolo's power versus Raditz were stated to be their top power. How retarded have you become? You are so hell bent on playing devil's advocate you've lost your sense of reason. You are the shittiest debater ever since I've gotten back, one more bad post and I'm going to have to block you, seriously.

The plan discussed on Roshi's island is the tail. Please do your research before you comment. Read the story and then write your rebuttal. You are wasting my time.

So what's your point here?

Haha, you are the unrivaled king? Oh my. Yep, that's it. Blocked. I'll unblock you only when you beg and even then, maybe not.

 

[Kyo]

Roshi could've pushed his shit in all along

 

[ahill1]

Oh, but he did know about Raditz weakness. That is the whole game plan going in ahill. The game plan is to survive long enough to be able to grab the tail. They had zero chance in winning if not for the tail grab strategy. That's what many are missing here.

You have Raditz at full power twice. You mean powered up Raditz right for 400?

Yeah, I meant powered up Raditz.

Well, Goku at least said it was going to be a fight right after he took off his weights, so I think he was at least expecting himself and Piccolo to manage something fighting Raditz h2h. Raditz's power once he landed the first blow aggravated his need to have his tail, before it he only made mention of going with this plan when he was planning to attack him with Roshi and Kuririn iirc. Piccolo stated their chances were slim, and he had no knowledge about the tail's weakness. So yeah, I think whilst the odds weren't on their side, Goku at least thought they could manage something when fighting together, unless his statement of "This is going to be a fight" was Viz only.

My numbers still do reflect it though. They are both considerably outclassed by initial Raditz (it's a 70% gap)... I just don't think it was as bad as how outclassed the Ginyus were by more than 60k Goku, considering they couldn't, at all, connect a blow into Goku even when they went at him together. Piccolo's line regarding Raditz's speed "he attacked us from the front yet he hit us from behind"... that sounds more like a Ginyu-Goku kind of dominance, maybe even bigger.

I think initial Raditz's level of domincance over weighted Goku was as big as his powered up version level of dominance over unweighted Goku and Piccolo... and that level of dominance was about as big as a Goku vs Ginyus level of dominance... and the initial Raditz's gap over non-weights Goku and Piccolo was more akin to... Vegeta over Semi Cell, maybe.

What's sad is that Roshi could have defeated Raditz all along, he just didn't feel like it.

 

[SSJ2]

Roshi certainly looked excited about the prospect of fighting Raditz.

 

[ahill1]

Oh, for some reason I thought Piccolo expressed surprise when he saw how powerless Raditz got once Goku got his tail. Oh well, then it's possible he knew about such weakness since he was in the island when Goku talked about such thing.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, it's a shame Piccolo didn't give the opportunity for Roshi to show his true self besides Raditz.

 

[Kyo]

nah roshi ain't shit and super is an abortion

no jokes

 

[p123]

Quote?

 

[ahill1]

Quote?

bout what?

 

[p123]

Quote on Goku saying it's going to be a fight.

 

[p123]

I have a hard time putting Initial Raditz at less than 2x Goku and Piccolo's weighted power. Anyone care to debate that? That is ultimate dominance displayed.

And the next step, I feel that Raditz dominates Goku and Piccolo without weights, better than Goku vs Ginyu Force. Is anyone going to try to prove me wrong on that?

 

[Victorious]

As good as #17 dominated Future Trunks and Piccolo though. Didn't he one shot both them?

 

[p123]

Yea. That's my point.