Rage Boost

[Clearin]

[No message]

 

[p123]

Clearin check this out.

How can Vegeta be so confident about beating Gohan at the 25th Budokai, yet we know he's clearly inferior to Ssj2 Kid Gohan's power.

It seems that Vegeta surpassed Ssj Kid Gohan, but he still can't touch his Ssj2 power. Sounds like rage boost to me.

 

[Clearin]

Clearin check this out.

How can Vegeta be so confident about beating Gohan at the 25th Budokai, yet we know he's clearly inferior to Ssj2 Kid Gohan's power.

It seems that Vegeta surpassed Ssj Kid Gohan, but he still can't touch his Ssj2 power. Sounds like rage boost to me.

Well Vegeta knows Gohan had gotten weaker. Vegeta can be above current Gohan while still being weaker than kid Gohan.

You did bring up a good point on the last page though, Gohan's power started increasing from rage even before he transformed.

 

[ahill1]

Rage boost does not make sense to me ... I know it's a good theory, but to me it makes no sense. Goku said that if Gohan gets nervous he would be stronger than anyone ... even stronger than himself? That's false because Goku (boo saga) is stronger than Gohan (Cell games).

 

[Clearin]

Rage boost does not make sense to me ... I know it's a good theory, but to me it makes no sense. Goku said that if Gohan gets nervous he would be stronger than anyone ... even stronger than himself? That's false because Goku (boo saga) is stronger than Gohan (Cell games).

I think the idea is that Gohan from the Boo saga would have more potential, thus more power to draw from.

If you single out that comment of Goku's alone, it has to be a rage boost. Goku can't be referring to regular SSj2 there since SSj2 Gohan has no chance of surpassing Goku without extra power from something.

 

[p123]

Vegeta seems a bit too dead set in his thinking imo Clearin. First he questions Gohan, he says that Gohan has gotten lazy and he has continued to train and questions the gap between them.

Then later while the Budokai is at hand, Vegeta thinks he is superior to all of them, including Goku, who he values higher than Gohan.

I think it makes sense for Vegeta to be able to beat Kid Gohan but not an enraged version of him.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

So for Goku's plan to revolve around Gohan using rage to transform doesn't make much sense. It was a plan specifically for Gohan, not Goku or Vegeta who have also used rage to transform in the past. However none of that matters anyway since Goku's plan didn't include Gohan transforming at all. Goku's plan was to use the same rage boosts we've seen plenty of times before. The transformation was unexpected to even Goku himself.

All that means is that Goku and Vegeta don't have the potential to achieve Super Saiyan 2 yet.

The only ones surprised by the transformation were Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo. Goku was smiling.

He doesn't need to get angry to unlock a form he's already unlocked, but Goku even now in the Boo saga mentions "getting angry like [Gohan] did against Cell". If he doesn't need anger to use SSj2 anymore than telling Gohan to get angry now is pointless, he may as well have just said "use Super Saiyan 2", and that doesn't even work because Goku says Gohan's anger (like he had against Cell) would put him above anyone, including Goku.

You're misunderstanding me. Super Saiyan 2 was an expression of Gohan's potential and effectively his rage boost, but things are different now. I am not saying that Super Saiyan 2 is his rage boost in the Boo Arc, but it is what his rage boost was in the Cell Games.

How was I incorrect? Gohan got weaker because he slacked off in training. If you mean the "when he killed Cell" part, why can't that just be referring to the time period?

Well it's been 7 years, when you've got two characters who claim to improve a lot, and one of those characters thinks that the other character gaining a lot of strength won't matter, that's already a big jump between the two. Vegeta thinks "Kakarot's trained a lot? Well I'll still be stronger than him", so if 50% is "a lot", then Vegeta should be expecting at least that much and be able to beat it, but then it turns out Vegeta is left in the dust by Goku, so we've got more increases onto that 50%. I personally think 50% in 7 years is too low for those two to expect out of each other anyway.

I don't think Vegeta was expecting an easy fight. I think he was expecting what amounts to his fight as a Majin.

Here's how I see his thought process - he initially believes that he and Goku are equally talented, so he does as much special training as possible to outdo Goku, he'll need it since Goku has a head start. if Goku and Vegeta indeed were equal geniuses, I think you'd end up with them basically equal.

It's not too low an expectation when you consider that Goku himself admitted that using the RoSaT was pointless before the Cell Games.

You are incorrect because you claimed he applied that only to Super Saiyan Gohan. Despite what the first line says ("I've become Super Saiyan"), he is speaking of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Look at the strength checker for confirmation, that line is clearly under "Super Saiyan 2 Gohan".

I didn't say a rage boosted Gohan in the Boo saga would only be as strong as Cell Games Gohan, did I? Goku already said that Gohan would be above himself, that automatically puts him above Cell Games Gohan.

Then what does the Cell Games even have to do with anything?

But both Goku and Vegeta have achieved transformations from rage. Vegeta's line "There's no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy" and Goku's line "Get angry like you did with Cell" could easily just be replaced with Gohan telling Goku "Get angry like you did with Freeza". Using rage to transform isn't a thing specific to Gohan, yet Goku's plan relied specifically on Gohan's rage boosts, which have never involved a transformation (and with no mention of a transformation at all in this specific plan). Why make a big song and dance about Gohan's rage boosts, and refer to that same rage boost in the Boo saga, when Goku and Vegeta did the exact same thing in the past?

They did not achieve Super Saiyan 2 through rage, though. According to the Daizenshuu, they did it through intense training, the same can be said for Gotenks I'm sure. Gohan is the only one to have achieved that form through anger.

And yes, Goku could have very easily said "get angry like you did against Freeza", but that's hardly the most noteworthy example.

I don't believe Goku's plan specifically was about Gohan transforming either, but that's what it turned out to be. I can agree that it isn't necessarily something Goku specifically expected (though it was set up), but that does not imply that there's anything more on top of it either. When he fought Cell, he got angry and powered up a bunch (i.e. he achieved Super Saiyan 2), Goku wants him to do that again. it's that simple.

How can Vegeta be so confident about beating Gohan at the 25th Budokai, yet we know he's clearly inferior to Ssj2 Kid Gohan's power.

He explains himself pretty clearly. He's counting on Gohan to have lost power from slacking off.

If you single out that comment of Goku's alone, it has to be a rage boost. Goku can't be referring to regular SSj2 there since SSj2 Gohan has no chance of surpassing Goku without extra power from something.

Not what I'm saying.

 

[ahill1]

Rage boost does not make sense to me ... I know it's a good theory, but to me it makes no sense. Goku said that if Gohan gets nervous he would be stronger than anyone ... even stronger than himself? That's false because Goku (boo saga) is stronger than Gohan (Cell games).

I think the idea is that Gohan from the Boo saga would have more potential, thus more power to draw from.

If you single out that comment of Goku's alone, it has to be a rage boost. Goku can't be referring to regular SSj2 there since SSj2 Gohan has no chance of surpassing Goku without extra power from something.

Why Gohan "rage boost" can not be his SS2?

 

[p123]

How about Vegeta's " We are stronger than him now " comment. Seems to signify they wouldn't be stronger than Gohan had he not lost power?

 

[Lightsworn]

What exactly does it mean when one says "His rage boost is his Ssj2"? Gohan's rage boosts in the past lasted for only a few seconds. This time he unlocked the Ssj2 form luckily, like how Goku did against Freeza. Then from that point he becomes calm again. So if he were to get angry again, why would he suddenly not be able to get rage boosts? I personally believe he got one towards the end of the Kamehameha battle.

 

[Clearin]

All that means is that Goku and Vegeta don't have the potential to achieve Super Saiyan 2 yet.

The only ones surprised by the transformation were Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo. Goku was smiling.

How can the characters be sure of that? Goku in particular. Wouldn't he have to test them all to get angry and see if any one in particular transformed?

You're misunderstanding me. Super Saiyan 2 was an expression of Gohan's potential and effectively his rage boost, but things are different now. I am not saying that Super Saiyan 2 is his rage boost in the Boo Arc, but it is what his rage boost was in the Cell Games.

I just personally don't think that makes sense as far as the story telling went. Why hype it up so much to be Gohan's specific thing only for Gohan to do what two characters have done before him, while ignoring the unique rage boosts than only Gohan has ever had in the past?

You are incorrect because you claimed he applied that only to Super Saiyan Gohan. Despite what the first line says ("I've become Super Saiyan"), he is speaking of Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Look at the strength checker for confirmation, that line is clearly under "Super Saiyan 2 Gohan".

Ah, my bad. Thanks for correcting me, I forgot this line was about SSj2 Gohan. I still think it doesn't give any definite proof since this is the first time Vegeta has ever seen Gohan at his full power in the Boo saga (that line could technically have been referring to any form of Gohan unless Super Saiyan forms don't have consistent multipliers).

Then what does the Cell Games even have to do with anything?

What context did I say Gohan would be equal to his Cell Games self? I'm a bit confused lol

They did not achieve Super Saiyan 2 through rage, though. According to the Daizenshuu, they did it through intense training, the same can be said for Gotenks I'm sure. Gohan is the only one to have achieved that form through anger.

They might have achieved it through training in the end, but theoretically there's no reason they couldn't use rage to transform just like Gohan did.

And yes, Goku could have very easily said "get angry like you did against Freeza", but that's hardly the most noteworthy example.

I don't see how it isn't noteworthy. If you're saying Gohan's rage boost in the Cell Games was only to unlock SSj2, then he's using his unique rage boosts for something that Goku has done before.

I don't believe Goku's plan specifically was about Gohan transforming either, but that's what it turned out to be. I can agree that it isn't necessarily something Goku specifically expected (though it was set up), but that does not imply that there's anything more on top of it either.

Well it's not that I don't agree with you that the rage boost was what set off SSj2. But for me personally, I feel like if we left it at that then it wouldn't make any sense for the narration of the story. As I've mentioned, using rage to transform isn't Gohan-specific. Yet there's a huge deal about Goku's plan being Gohan's specific rage, not just any rage, not rage Goku himself has used in the past, but Gohan's rage boost. If Gohan's rage only made him transform and nothing else, then what he did was the exact same as what Goku did, and I don't think anyone would say Goku has a "rage boost" , he had rage, and he transformed due to rage, but his new power was because of the transformation itself, not his rage. Goku's rage alone doesn't increase his power like Gohan's does, so for all this focus to be put on Gohan's rage boosts, specifically mentioning the previous times he'd done it, the actual rage boost has to actual come in to play. If Gohan's power is solely his SSj2 power then he wasn't using his rage to gain power, he was instead using SSj2 to gain power.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

How about Vegeta's " We are stronger than him now " comment. Seems to signify they wouldn't be stronger than Gohan had he not lost power?

Vegeta wouldn't be.

 

[ahill1]

When Goku told Gohan get nervous, he meant to turn into his SS2 IMO.

 

[p123]

Goku and Vegeta both bring up how Enraged Teen Gohan could be superior to them.

 

[Lightsworn]

Was Gohan Rage boosted the entire time while fighting Cell?

 

[Clearin]

Was Gohan Rage boosted the entire time while fighting Cell?

That's what this thread is about As you can see, opinions are very split.

 

[Lightsworn]

But his rage boosts only last for a few seconds.

 

[ahill1]

Because Gohan has varied "boosts" when he gets nervous.

Vs Raditz
Power level 1
~ Enranged 1,307
------boost 1,307x

Vs Nappa
Power level ~ 1,307
~ Enranged 2,800
-------boost 2x

Vs Freeza
Power level ~ 250,000
~ Enranged ~ 1,000,000
--------boost 4x

Vs Cell
Power level ~54,000,000,000
~Enranged 108,000,000,000
--------boost 2x

Boo saga
Power level ~ 40,000,000,000
~ Enranged who knows?
---------boost who knows?

As you can see all boosts were varied. So how Vegeta can be sure how strong Gohan will become if he gets angry?

 

[p123]

Gohan can control his rage now for the first time ever.

 

[Lightsworn]

Gohan can control his rage now for the first time ever.

Is that stated somewhere?