Rage Boost

[Lightsworn]

He had an aura as a suppressed SSJ2, so I don't think this stays consistent.

I don't think Goku was suppressed.

But he only surpassed Gohan when he and Vegeta transformed. And he said he would use "full power" n Vegeta, implying it wasn't used before.

Unless he has mastery over SSJ2 and can control its multiplier, he had to be suppressed as a Super Saiyan.

Goku's burst was likely too fast for Vegeta to fully discern it, but Goku could've still displayed his full power either way.

 

[SSJ2]

At the Budokai he could've just had sparks to emphasize how his energy is significant to Boo's revival. It wasn't until where his power was to be put to use

This is just looking way too into it.

Every single SSJ2 in the manga, even 50% Kid Gohan had an aura. Gohan was basically depressed and thought the earth was done for, yet he had an aura. Now all of a sudden he loses it because he isn't important to the story? That doesn't make sense. I could argue that SSJ2 Goku is meant to look weak next to his SSJ3 form, yet they both have lightning.

It's no different than why Cell has sparks and a sharp aura after his Zenkai. He is no Super Saiyan 2 and still displays those traits because it's meant to convey his strong ppwer, not somre transformation. Same with Nappa and Vegetto, to emphasize their power at the moment. The same reason why Piccolo has a Super Saiyan aura in the android arc despite not being being a Super Saiyan. It's to convey him as a Super Namekian. I don't have a problem having the same explanation for Gohan not having sparks.

Let's not even focus on the lightning then, why is the aura itself randomly different? Why does the coloured manga show it as a SSJ aura? The aura lost the fire it had a few chapters back.

 

[p123]

Goku is still shocked at Vegeta's power.

Super Saiyan Majin Vegeta is portrayed to be the most powerful villain for sure.

 

[Lightsworn]

This is just looking way too into it.

Every single SSJ2 in the manga, even 50% Kid Gohan had an aura. Gohan was basically depressed and thought the earth was done for, yet he had an aura. Now all of a sudden he loses it because he isn't important to the story? That doesn't make sense. I could argue that SSJ2 Goku is meant to look weak next to his SSJ3 form, yet they both have lightning.

It's no different than why Cell has sparks and a sharp aura after his Zenkai. He is no Super Saiyan 2 and still displays those traits because it's meant to convey his strong ppwer, not somre transformation. Same with Nappa and Vegetto, to emphasize their power at the moment. The same reason why Piccolo has a Super Saiyan aura in the android arc despite not being being a Super Saiyan. It's to convey him as a Super Namekian. I don't have a problem having the same explanation for Gohan not having sparks.

Let's not even focus on the lightning then, why is the aura itself randomly different? Why does the coloured manga show it as a SSJ aura? The aura lost the fire it had a few chapters back.

I use the same reason for why he doesn't have sparks. Vegeta has a plain Super Saiyan aura right before he takes his senzsu. He also loses the sharpness of his aura after Fat Boo beats him up.

 

[SSJ2]

I don't think Goku was suppressed.

But he only surpassed Gohan when he and Vegeta transformed. And he said he would use "full power" n Vegeta, implying it wasn't used before.

Unless he has mastery over SSJ2 and can control its multiplier, he had to be suppressed as a Super Saiyan.

Goku's burst was likely too fast for Vegeta to fully discern it, but Goku could've still displayed his full power either way.

Doesn't look too quick to me. Vegeta clearly was able to sense Goku's power, as he knew that he had surpassed himself. In what case has a power reading been too quick to get a perfect grasp on it? We see Goku for a solid two pages in SSJ2.

 

[SSJ2]

It's no different than why Cell has sparks and a sharp aura after his Zenkai. He is no Super Saiyan 2 and still displays those traits because it's meant to convey his strong ppwer, not somre transformation. Same with Nappa and Vegetto, to emphasize their power at the moment. The same reason why Piccolo has a Super Saiyan aura in the android arc despite not being being a Super Saiyan. It's to convey him as a Super Namekian. I don't have a problem having the same explanation for Gohan not having sparks.

Let's not even focus on the lightning then, why is the aura itself randomly different? Why does the coloured manga show it as a SSJ aura? The aura lost the fire it had a few chapters back.

I use the same reason for why he doesn't have sparks. Vegeta has a plain Super Saiyan aura right before he takes his senzsu. He also loses the sharpness of his aura after Fat Boo beats him up.

Yet he still has his full aura when he is visibly in worse shape against Boo.

This is why this argument is way too shaky and shouldn't be used over what is shown in the manga. The aura of a SSJ2 has always got lightning, there are several panels where it is missing, but 99.9999999% of the panels have lightning. Gohan's ENTIRE fight is missing this trait, not just a panel here and there.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Why is he drawn differently in the same form?

To convey his weakness, if I am forced to think artistically.

He wasn't weak at the Budokai?

He was. I think he was confident there. Call it an edge if you will. He knew he could beat Kibito even though he thought the guy might be strong. Against Dabra he's fighting someone on his level with the world potentially at stake and he shrivles up into a turtle. He did the same thing against Cell. He showed his power early on and everyone gasped, but then it came time to fight and he balled up.

I always found it an easy pill to swallow. He's not good under pressure. Gohan's ability to fight has always been tied directly to his personality. If you look at it as stage fright, in a way, it at least males sense to me.

So he shows Kibito a badass SSJ2 at the Budoki because "why not, fuck it.". He can just tap Kibito on the neck and knock him out. Since he's a badass and all confident, he's sparkly.

But then he has to actually put it to serious use and he can't, because he hates to fight. And by fight, I mean really get violent. So now he's all timid and hesitant. No sparks because he's holding back, even in SSJ2. That's why he needs to get angry, because he'll lose control.

It makes the line from Goku about Dabra ~ Cell an easier pill to swallow, for me at least.

Don't hate me. :what

 

[Lightsworn]

Let's not even focus on the lightning then, why is the aura itself randomly different? Why does the coloured manga show it as a SSJ aura? The aura lost the fire it had a few chapters back.

I use the same reason for why he doesn't have sparks. Vegeta has a plain Super Saiyan aura right before he takes his senzsu. He also loses the sharpness of his aura after Fat Boo beats him up.

Yet he still has his full aura when he is visibly in worse shape against Boo.

This is why this argument is way too shaky and shouldn't be used over what is shown in the manga. The aura of a SSJ2 has always got lightning, there are several panels where it is missing, but 99.9999999% of the panels have lightning. Gohan's ENTIRE fight is missing this trait, not just a panel here and there.

For me there are enough discrepancies in the art to make an argument that Gohan was Ssj2. Gohan still has his one bang which is a Ssj2 trait, combined with the dialogue seals it for me that he was a Ssj2. The anime also supports him being Ssj2, and if you like the Daizenshuu, it directly says he was Ssj2. I don't think it's fair to say the art ends all arguments when pretty much everything say otherwise. For me the plot is more important than squiggly lines. The story still continues without the art.

 

[p123]

Let's try to make the story work as is.

 

[Southern Gothic]

People see the story differently.

 

[POOHEAD189]

I feel as if Gohan had to be SSJ2. That'd be like going into a knife fight unarmed when you could have easily grabbed your own knife too. It makes no sense, and it'd be beyond retarded for Gohan to not have used it.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

I don't have much to say about this debate. Super Saiyan 2 works better, art disagrees.

:drugs

 

[Southern Gothic]

I'm not going to put anybody on blast who feels differently. For me, him being SSJ2 makes the most out of the context. A nerfed state to be sure, but the same form nonetheless.

There are inconsistencies throughout the arc, so we all have to make sacrifices in order to make it work. This just happens to be one of mine, and it sits on the unpopular side of the fence.

 

[Lightsworn]

Let's try to make the story work as is.

The problem is that trying to make the story work while saying he was only Ssj1 creates contradictions and we're forced to say there was a retcon or say "stupid writing". If we say he was Ssj2, the story works fine, but the art doesn't soothe well with most people and creates a whole other problem. So there's no real way to satisfy both sides. I've attempted to show how the art could possibly work with examples of Cell have Ssj2 aura and sparks despite not being Ssj2, and Piccolo having Ssj aura despite not being Ssj and few other examples. However, I haven't gotten a similar response on how the story could work while him being only Ssj1. So far the best answers are retcon and bad writing.

 

[Clearin]

I've attempted to show how the art could possibly work with examples of Cell have Ssj2 aura and sparks despite not being Ssj2, and Piccolo having Ssj aura despite not being Ssj and few other examples.

That's a different thing. No one is arguing that the SSj2 aura is specific to SSj2, but that all SSj2's in the manga have that specific aura. You could give Krillin an SSj2 aura and it wouldn't affect what state Gohan was in because all that would tell us is that you don't need SSj2 to have that aura. In Gohan's case though it's the LACK of the aura that makes it clear he's not SSj2.

In other words, you don't need SSj2 to have that aura, but you do need that aura to be SSj2.

It's kind of like how bad Launch has blonde hair, but she's not a Super Saiyan. However all Super Saiyans do have blonde hair.

 

[Lightsworn]

I've attempted to show how the art could possibly work with examples of Cell have Ssj2 aura and sparks despite not being Ssj2, and Piccolo having Ssj aura despite not being Ssj and few other examples.

That's a different thing. No one is arguing that the SSj2 aura is specific to SSj2, but that all SSj2's in the manga have that specific aura. You could give Krillin an SSj2 aura and it wouldn't affect what state Gohan was in because all that would tell us is that you don't need SSj2 to have that aura. In Gohan's case though it's the LACK of the aura that makes it clear he's not SSj2.

In other words, you don't need SSj2 to have that aura, but you do need that aura to be SSj2.

It's kind of like how bad Launch has blonde hair, but she's not a Super Saiyan. However all Super Saiyans do have blonde hair.

Except you have to explain why Piccolo had a Super Saiyan aura and why Cell has a Super Saiyan 2 aura. IMO there's a reason behind it. Which is to portray their strength. Same with Gohan. He lack the sparks and aura to convey how weak he is compared to Vegeta and Goku, however, he still had one bang to represent him being a Super Saiyan 2. The art is basically subjective. To me, the fact that the author gives other characters these traits and somtimes just completely omits them, doesn't give me the impression that it's very important like everyone tries to make them out to be. After seeing how he uses them, it becomes more clear to me that he uses the art to his own discretion, and not just simply to indicate a transformation.

 

[Clearin]

I don't buy the idea that the lack of the sparks was to emphasize how much power he lost. For one thing he still had sparks when he transformed at the Budokai, and that transformation is immediately followed by Vegeta pointing out how weak Gohan is, with a comment like that you'd expect Toriyama to have removed the sparks to further convey how weak Gohan was now.

Secondly, other characters keep their sparks during moments their power is massively insignificant. SSj3 Goku kept his sparks when he transformed vs Bootenks, and SSj2 Vegeta kept his when he fought Kid Boo, despite both of those powers being far outclassed by then. The difference in power between SSj2 Vegeta and the higher tier Boo saga characters is much bigger than the difference between SSj2 Boo saga Gohan and SSj2 Goku and Vegeta.

 

[Lightsworn]

I don't buy the idea that the lack of the sparks was to emphasize how much power he lost. For one thing he still had sparks when he transformed at the Budokai, and that transformation is immediately followed by Vegeta pointing out how weak Gohan is, with a comment like that you'd expect Toriyama to have removed the sparks to further convey how weak Gohan was now.

Secondly, other characters keep their sparks during moments their power is massively insignificant. SSj3 Goku kept his sparks when he transformed vs Bootenks, and SSj2 Vegeta kept his when he fought Kid Boo, despite both of those powers being far outclassed by then. The difference in power between SSj2 Vegeta and the higher tier Boo saga characters is much bigger than the difference between SSj2 Boo saga Gohan and SSj2 Goku and Vegeta.

His power is emphasized at the Budokai to portray that his power is significant in Boo's revival. It wasn't until later where his power was to be put to use. Also at the time Gohan was still being conveyed as strongest, where it wasn't until Babidi's ship where Vegeta states both him and Goku are stronger than him now. Vegeta actually didn't have his sparks the entire time against Kid Boo, he lost them after his initial assault. Ssj3 Goku didn't even have sparks for a lot of his battle with Kid Boo. Gohan at the Cell Games lacked sparks for several panels as well. So I don't see that as the art being so concrete to the point where it's unarguable. Don't forget Gohan still has one bang against Dabra and Boo, a sign he was Ssj2. These discrepancies show me that the art can be interpreted differently.

 

[Clearin]

Starting with the Budokai Gohan always had one bang in Super Saiyan. Unless you thought he was a Super Saiyan 2 when Videl was getting beaten by Spopobitch, or when pulling out the Z sword.

 

[Lightsworn]

Starting with the Budokai Gohan always had one bang in Super Saiyan. Unless you thought he was a Super Saiyan 2 when Videl was getting beaten by Spopobitch, or when pulling out the Z sword.

Yes, I believe he was Super Saiyan 2 when Videl was getting beat up and when he pulled out the Z sword.