Recent Chapter Discussion

[Papasmurf]

I thought Freeza and Goku fought in base at hell?

Galu remarked that Freeza's power has risen again while in Hell, which highly implies he took his golden form in the fight

 

[SIAD]

How strong are the 11 Warriors of the Universe 7 in the ToP Manga?

We know that in the Anime: UI Goku (Speed against Kefla) >>> Goku SSJB Kaioken x20 (Current) = Vegeta USSJB> UI Goku (Force against Kefla)> UI Goku (Against Jiren) >>>>>> Goku SSJB Kaioken x20 (ToP) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vegeta SSJB (ToP) >>> Goku SSJB (ToP) = Golden Freezer (ToP) = Gohan Ultimate (ToP) >>>> Goku SSJG (ToP) ) = Android # 17 (ToP) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vegeta SSJ (ToP) >>> Goku SSJ (ToP) >>> Vegeta Base (ToP)> Android # 18 (ToP) >> Mr. Boo (ToP)> Goku Base (ToP)> Gohan Base (ToP)> = Piccolo (ToP)> Krilin (ToP) >>> Buff Roshi (ToP) >>> Tenshinhan (ToP)> >>>>>> Roshi Base (ToP) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any Hypothetical SSJ4 Fusion of DBGT.

How powerful are the 11 Warriors in the Manga?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

How strong are the 11 Warriors of the Universe 7 in the ToP Manga?

CSSB Goku and Vegeta are the strongest. True Golden Freeza is either equal to SSB Goku or CSSB Goku given how the two were equally injured after their offscreen battle, though I'd lean more towards SSB. Piccolo likely isn't much stronger than his U6 Arc self, so in between current Base and SSJ Goku. #17 is at least equal to SS3 Goku, likely stronger. Gohan has yet to present any feats, though based on Vegeta having hyped up his potential, I imagine he's SSB tier like his anime self after the training. The rest of the team are featless right now, so no need to assume they've improved at all until they actually present feats supporting such.

 

[ahill1]

How strong are the 11 Warriors of the Universe 7 in the ToP Manga?

CSSB Goku and Vegeta are the strongest. True Golden Freeza is either equal to SSB Goku or CSSB Goku given how the two were equally injured after their offscreen battle, though I'd lean more towards SSB. Piccolo likely isn't much stronger than his U6 Arc self, so in between current Base and SSJ Goku. #17 is at least equal to SS3 Goku, likely stronger. Gohan has yet to present any feats, though based on Vegeta having hyped up his potential, I imagine he's SSB tier like his anime self after the training. The rest of the team are featless right now, so no need to assume they've improved at all until they actually present feats supporting such.

Wouldn't that mean #17 is way above Piccolo though?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yes. I wasn't mentioning them in order of strength.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, I know. I was asking because #17 being way ahead of Piccolo just strikes off as really odd to me. But maybe Piccolo will be kind of haxed in the ToP explained by him helping Gohan getting back in shape?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yeah, I know. I was asking because #17 being way ahead of Piccolo just strikes off as really odd to me. But maybe Piccolo will be kind of haxed in the ToP explained by him helping Gohan getting back in shape?

I doubt it, seeing as how he did nothing of worth in the anime and the manga will likely gloss over most fights that don't have to do with U11. Doubt getting Gohan back in shape would be enough to warrant a power boost, considering Trunks made the comparable gains of going from his Cell Games power to rivalling post-God SS3 Galu through what was likely only a handful of encounters with Black and let's not forget U6 Arc Piccolo's gains. Super manga still makes characters as strong as the plot needs them to be.

 

[Pyro]

SSJ3 Goku > 17 for me.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Galu remarked that Freeza's power has risen again while in Hell, which highly implies he took his golden form in the fight

Goku's remark can still work otherwise since he could have been comparing Frieza's current base power to the prior level. I think they most likely fought at their peak transformations though, like in episode 95.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku's remark can still work otherwise since he could have been comparing Frieza's current base power to the prior level.

Freeza can easily alter the percentage of his power in his true form's regular state up to 70%, so I doubt that's a viable option when Goku could just assume he decided to use a higher percentage than in their FnF battle, seeing as how Freeza cut that battle short to go Golden and may not have necessarily been using anything beyond 50% or so.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Goku's remark can still work otherwise since he could have been comparing Frieza's current base power to the prior level.

Freeza can easily alter the percentage of his power in his true form's regular state up to 70%, so I doubt that's a viable option when Goku could just assume he decided to use a higher percentage than in their FnF battle, seeing as how Freeza cut that battle short to go Golden and may not have necessarily been using anything beyond 50% or so.

Frieza can indeed alter it, but that's not going to stop Goku from sensing what Frieza may not be bringing to the surface. In the FnF manga, Goku immediately understood the shocking power that Frieza was packing right after he transformed, so much so that he concluded Frieza could've made a good rival if it wasn't for his evil nature.

The fight wasn't shown in the Super manga, but I don't see why it'd be any different to how it played out in the anime, in which 4th Form Frieza had to resort to cheap tricks since his power wasn't adequate enough to match Base Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I believe the context of that statement has more to do with how much power Freeza had gained from training, rather than what reserves he may still be hiding. Goku can indeed tell when an opponent is hiding their true power, but not by how much. Their battle on Namek was proof alone of that.

 

[Spiral-Force]

I believe the context of that statement has more to do with how much power Freeza had gained from training, rather than what reserves he may still be hiding. Goku can indeed tell when an opponent is hiding their true power, but not by how much. Their battle on Namek was proof alone of that.

Goku already talked about Frieza's training in the bottom middle panel, so I think Goku's statement in the left panel is more centered around power, especially considering he reacted to Frieza's transformation by powering up. It appears that Goku's comprehension of Frieza's reserved strength has improved since the Namek era, because he figured out the maximum power he needed to use to fight him.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It appears that Goku's comprehension of Frieza's reserved strength has improved since the Namek era, because he figured out the maximum power he needed to use to fight him.

Considering he says "For now", I don't consider that to be the case. Freeza wasn't using his 100%, so Goku likely saw this portion of the fight as a clear warm up.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Considering he says "For now", I don't consider that to be the case. Freeza wasn't using his 100%, so Goku likely saw this portion of the fight as a clear warm up.

After Frieza mentioned going beyond his 4th form, Goku expressed that he had the impression that Frieza had something else up his sleeve, so I'd argue that the "for now" statement is for 4th Form Frieza's power in general, not just suppressed.

When you take into account that Frieza didn't power-up in his 4th form when Goku held the advantage, but instead dealt with this by deciding to transform again, this indicates that he was using 100% in his 4th form, just not whilst bulky like on Namek. This isn't surprising considering his GT counterpart was capable of the same thing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

We later see, at least anime-wise, that Freeza is still able to use his bulked up form and therefore wasn't using 100% in FnF. You could argue that he may have perfected his true form and his bulked form is Grade 3-esque Ki weighting now, but I'd prefer to go with the option that doesn't openly contradict the reason for it's existence in the first place as being an option when he already has Golden seems nonsensical.
I'd say Freeza's decision to go straight to Golden Freeza doesn't necessarily imply he was using all his power, only enough to know that 100% wouldn't be enough to take down SSJ Goku based on how he fared against base Goku.

 

[Spiral-Force]

We later see, at least anime-wise, that Freeza is still able to use his bulked up form and therefore wasn't using 100% in FnF. You could argue that he may have perfected his true form and his bulked form is Grade 3-esque Ki weighting now, but I'd prefer to go with the option that doesn't openly contradict the reason for it's existence in the first place as being an option when he already has Golden seems nonsensical.
I'd say Freeza's decision to go straight to Golden Freeza doesn't necessarily imply he was using all his power, only enough to know that 100% wouldn't be enough to take down SSJ Goku based on how he fared against base Goku.

Frieza can use the full power of his Golden form without sacrificing his slim build (which perfectly matches the build of his 4th form by the way), so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do such with his 4th form as well after achieving such a feat. Hell, it shouldn't be as difficult to do since his natural state doesn't manage anywhere near the amount of power as his Golden form does. Nowadays, the bulky form is just isolated as an anomalous excess power boost with a major drawback. As far as the fight goes, Goku took control quite early on, so Frieza had plenty of time to simply raise his power if he could do so. He had no reason to hold back and get smashed for the entire duration of the fight.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

^Ought to be in the Recent Episode Discussion thread.

 

[ahill1]

This topic is about da manga, not da anime

 

[SSJ2]

oh for fucks sake lmao