Recent Chapter Discussion

[Papasmurf]

Honestly hoping he gets fired after the Broly movie takes off

 

[Papasmurf]

Honestly hoping he gets fired after the Broly movie takes off

 

[ahill1]

Have read the chapter and... honestly didn't like it at all. Besides the bad writing surrounding the debate of whether Gohan surpassed Goku, in which we have conflicting evidence pointing at both sides, I detested how the manga makes it sound like Goku isn't encompassing the teachings he has had alongside his life as a martial artist... Kame-Sen'nin having to remember Goku about Karin and Popo's teachings, as well as Goku, pre ToP, wondering whether Beerus have eyes on his back all point towards Goku not using Popo's teachings on his subsequents fights, which is pretty disappointing. It seems they are always finding a way to regress down Goku's character... not by merely making him more of a moron, but by desconstructing his martial artist experience as a whole, whereas now Goku is shown as a student that doesn't listen to his master's advise, which was even contradicted in the 22nd Budokai, whereas it was shown, via Roshi, that one of Goku's qualities was listening to advise and making his best to learn. Guess Toyotaro just glossed over some aspects of the original DB, or didn't even care to read it. Disappointing.

Whilst this may not happen, I'd like for them to give the chance for another Japanese DB fan here instead of Toyotaro in the following part of DBS... maybe the woman who did the Bardock SSJ manga, despite her art not resembling Toriyama's that much. Or maybe the one who has drawn the Yamcha's story. I just don't like, at all, the way in which Toyotaro's tells a history. Very forced and not incorporating the true spirit of Dragon Ball.

No wonder why Popo was shown throwing shades at Goku in every chance he had when he appeared in the DBS manga... Goku just seems like a fucking idiot in the story.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I think Dragon Lee's artwork is the closest to Toriyama's artwork if you ask me.

I think it does makes sense TBH. Didn't Goku actually focus more on power levels and techniques since Z and abandoned ultra instinct like Popo and Karin taught him?

Folks from kanzenshuu wants Toyotaro to be fire.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42614&sid=a37842b3fc60e73b6e9632724486019c

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Toyotaro is such a bitch faggot

I still don't get it, even after some-time. What is wrong with that, or what is that to begin with?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

The manga didn't make Goku forget about his teachings, that's the whole concept of Ultra-Instinct. He's forgotten all about that, even-though he was basically taught about that a long time ago, but yeah let's bash the manga more for no reason.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Decided to skip right to this chapter and read it to see how bad it is, and it was somehow even worse than expected. However, it's obvious what Toyotaro is trying to do, he's using Goku as a way to criticise Dragon Ball's method of fighting, powering up to defeat your opponent. However this message that he is trying to install does not work in any universe due to the characters that he is using.

Goku is not some half baked martial artist who thinks the only way to beat an opponent is through raw power, and obtaining raw power. This idea doesn't even make sense by the Cell Arc standards as he ditched Ascended Super Saiyan, and instead focused on mastering Super Saiyan so it could be used more efficiently. Granted that was a power boost, but even here Ultra Instinct is a power boost.

Master Roshi is not some wise old hermit, who was all along more skilled than even Goku. That is fucking ludicrous and doesn't line up with the fact that Goku has rivalled and surpassed Roshi since he was a kid. In the 22nd Tenkaichi budokai no less, the second arc in Dragon Ball; Goku and Roshi fought in a battle where Roshi used every trick in his book, and yet Goku was more than capable of matching him in skill, strength, and adapted quickly to what Roshi had to offer.

Roshi even admits by the Red Ribbon Arc after Karin's training that Goku had far surpassed him. And this makes sense, it took 3 years for Roshi to steal the water from Karin, even when he used underhanded techniques. Yet Goku was capable of taking the water from Karin in 3 days and didn't use any underhanded techniques. This is meant to highlight that Goku has LONG since surpassed his mentor in every respect. Since then Goku has only continued to sky rocket past Master Roshi, learning to sense Ki, flying, Ki blasts, and even fucking healing.

Trying to say that Roshi was some genius all this time, and Goku was some brute is inexcusably bad writing to a laughable degree. I can respect Toyo's attempt at critiquing Dragon Ball's method of fighting, but this new message of his would actually work with new characters.

Also it's laughable that Roshi randomly had Ultra Instinct all this time.

It's also hilarious that Whis claims that Ultra Instinct is a difficult technique, yet Goku saw Roshi use it once, and could use it briefly in 48 minutes of time.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Roshi's also implied to be strong in this chapter.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He ditched the take regular Super-Saiyan over SSJ Grade-II in the next saga when he used SSJ3 because of its power, even-though it was even more impractical.

 

[Papasmurf]

He ditched the take regular Super-Saiyan over SSJ Grade-II in the next saga when he used SSJ3 because of its power, even-though it was even more impractical.

Goku always used SSJ2 until it was insufficient, though. And when Goku first learned SSJ3 he had a dead body that drained no energy.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He ditched the take regular Super-Saiyan over SSJ Grade-II in the next saga when he used SSJ3 because of its power, even-though it was even more impractical.

Goku always used SSJ2 until it was insufficient, though. And when Goku first learned SSJ3 he had a dead body that drained no energy.

But it would have shortened his time on earth and he didn't use SSJ3 because he didn't want to hurt Vegeta's feelings. Vegeta even told him that.

 

[Papasmurf]

He ditched the take regular Super-Saiyan over SSJ Grade-II in the next saga when he used SSJ3 because of its power, even-though it was even more impractical.

Goku always used SSJ2 until it was insufficient, though. And when Goku first learned SSJ3 he had a dead body that drained no energy.

But it would have shortened his time on earth and he didn't use SSJ3 because he didn't want to hurt Vegeta's feelings. Vegeta even told him that,

Galu's main excuse for not using it was that the time he had to use it was limited, so he saved it for when Boo was really released iirc.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Obviously he had to have an excuse, he could have easily taken-out Vegeta with one hit if he wanted to and it's not like after Boo he still didn't have some time on earth left. He had enough to tell everyone good-bye.

 

[Papasmurf]

He had only half an hour despite wasting maybe 3 hours during the tourney and on Babidi's ship. He'd likely have lost that time if he spent even another 20 seconds in SSJ3 form I bet.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

How much do you bet?

 

[Papasmurf]

3 silver coins.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I'll up the ante. 5 silver-coins.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Did Goku knew that more power means it would shorten his time on Earth?

 

[ahill1]

The manga didn't make Goku forget about his teachings, that's the whole concept of Ultra-Instinct. He's forgotten all about that, even-though he was basically taught about that a long time ago, but yeah let's bash the manga more for no reason.

It's not "bashing the manga for no reason". We have all the right to criticize the manga when it doesn't do justice to a Dragon Ball continuation. It's not because Toyotaro, unlike TOEI, is an obsessed fan, that we should turn an eye to all the things not done right in the manga... oe at least in this case, done in a way that would seem disappointing. He isn't immune from criticisms in anyway, and here, as a thread to discuss the recent chapters and in consequence the manga, it's is totally expected for us members to lay out what we don't like about the manga, whether some other members agree or don't. There's no "bashing at random" here.

I dunno whether you remember it, but in the Zeno exhibition match, Daishinkan proposed all the Hakaishins to fight each other in the battle arena... upon some instances of fighting, Beerus begun dodging all the other Gods attempts to attack him, to which Goku wondered whether Beerus have an eye on his backhead upon him dodging a hit at point blank...which, nitipicking aside, was the same question he had to ask Mr. Popo when this latter could predict Goku's movements without having to glare at it. Which yeah, implies Goku wasn't taking Popo's teachings into account in the ToP, otherwise Goku's "how does Beerus dodge without seeing his opponents?" question would look dumber than it seems. Roshi's "have you forgotten it?" just reinforces it. There's no agenda here, we are all reading the manga and coming to the same conclusions, that it sometimes glosses over a lot of aspects of DB. I'd be willingly to praise it had it been telling a story that excited me. I won't turn a blind eye on it only because we now have someone who cares (or at least pretends to) in charge.

 

[ahill1]

And this:

Goku is not some half baked martial artist who thinks the only way to beat an opponent is through raw power, and obtaining raw power. This idea doesn't even make sense by the Cell Arc standards as he ditched Ascended Super Saiyan, and instead focused on mastering Super Saiyan so it could be used more efficiently. Granted that was a power boost, but even here Ultra Instinct is a power boost.

Master Roshi is not some wise old hermit, who was all along more skilled than even Goku. That is fucking ludicrous and doesn't line up with the fact that Goku has rivalled and surpassed Roshi since he was a kid. In the 22nd Tenkaichi budokai no less, the second arc in Dragon Ball; Goku and Roshi fought in a battle where Roshi used every trick in his book, and yet Goku was more than capable of matching him in skill, strength, and adapted quickly to what Roshi had to offer.

Which I agree 100%. No reason pretending it's a work of art. Even if you think it is, we have all the right to bash it. We have reasons for it, we aren't simply "the manga sucks because shut up". If we weren't presenting reasons for such, then yeah, one could say we are bashing it at random. Not the case.

Like mentioned, when Goku and Kame-Sennin had similar battle power, Roshi ditched out every technique he knew and yet couldn't get the upperhand over Goku. He even resorted to techniques like the "drunk man" and the hypnosis, all which shows he couldn't get the upper hand in a h2h combat. So either he spent all those years mastering such hidden power that is the beginning of UI, or he isn't that skilled to begin with.

In this chapter Goku also asked for forgiveness for not being a student that listened to his masters' advises, which is totally the opposite of what was said of him in the 22nd Budokai, in which Roshi praised Goku for being prone to listen to advises. So Goku is given here in this chapter as a:

1 -- battle junkie who does everything for power;
2 -- as a student that doesn't listen to his mater's advises;

All which have been shown not be this way in the original manga, where Goku even gave up the more powerful transformation for some that didn't sacrifice speed and stamina and knew when to stop forcing his body, as he knew he was at his limits. Goku even stated, when he was about to fight Raditz, that "if he thinks power is everything, then he is no fighter"... which, all in all, implies DBS Goku isn't a fighter by original DB Goku's all admission. Good to see Toriyama's Goku scholding Toyotaro's Goku lol.

All which seems to be conflicting evidence on Goku's take on the martial artist. Granted that Goku only resorted to "more power" when fighting enemies like Vegeta and Freeza, but that's because the series' take as whole has changed... but it doesn't mean Goku has given up all his battle power experience and skills for more power, nor that he isn't encompassing the old teachings.

Heck, Roshi even stated that we don't fight to win fights, but to conquer ourselves which is, according to Boo saga Vegeta, NOT the way Goku thinks at all:

And Vegeta in the Boo saga stated Goku doesn't even fight to win, but not to lose to anyone, to BEST himself:

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, because Toei's Ultra-Insitinct wasn't the same exact concept. This is AT's fault. Ultra-Instinct as that is was already taught to Goku by Mr. Popo. He either forgot or whatever. Toyotaro pointed that out, Toei ignored it. At-least he acknowledged the stupidity of it.