Ssj namek vegeta vs freeza (50%)

[ahill1]

Nah not even 1999 people would think Piccolo could handle Mecha Freeza.

 

[SSJ2]

People wouldn't think that during the manga's original run...

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah Freeza is so dumb/out of reality that he thinks a power below his 3rd form can do any good against SSJ Goku.

Also, didn't Vegeta say if Kakarrot handled 100G he'd be able to handle 300G, saying he's at least 3x as much as him? Guess Vegeta is only at 270,000 then going by these feats, which is basically the same concept as "the tons feats in the Boo saga".

Oh, that's a magnificent point. Vegeta was even shown having some issues in it as well. Since he's over 10 times stronger than a Goku that conquered 100G, he shouldn't have felt it. Let's see where this one goes.

EV, you're too good for this 2005 level bullshit.

I honestly need the shit slapped outta me for continuing to reply. It's self-torture. I guess I just like to see how far I can go...even when there's literally no point to it.

But bro, let me ask your opinion: do you need to know how to sense power to know how strong you are?

 

[SSJ2]

Pretty respectable imo. I can't even find the will to read his posts, let alone articulate counters.

Uhh, depends maybe? The characters knew where they stood pre-Z without being able to sense. Krillin knew Goku was a bit ahead of him prior to the 21st...

 

[Evil Vegeta]

You're a lot smarter than I am. Keep doing that.

Freeza was able to display enough of an understanding to see that Goku was hiding power despite being unable to sense. I feel like that at least shows he's competent when it comes to battle. The idea that he wouldn't know how strong he is, or be totally clueless as to how the Mecha affected him is pretty silly. I feel like it's adding unnecessary elements to the story. It's no different than people taking Goku's "He's too strong for either of us" comment about Super Boo as him referring to their small size.

 

[SSJ2]

No, just no to your first sentence.

I agree though, Freeza clearly gets it despite not being able to sense. Ginyu even figured Goku would be hiding power, so that seems pretty common. Agreed, and besides, it was stated that Dabra's strength was roughly figured out by his movements... he didn't even have ki to be sensed and they evaluated his power. Freeza can do the same.

 

[ahill1]

Oh, that's a magnificent point. Vegeta was even shown having some issues in it as well. Since he's over 10 times stronger than a Goku that conquered 100G, he shouldn't have felt it. Let's see where this one goes.

I think he'll just say "Oh, Vegeta thought Goku was using a Kaio-ken x10 to handle this level of gravity, so Vegeta's 'I am at least 3x as much as him' can just mean 900,000 x3= 2,700,000 (an accurate BP for Vegeta)."


Goku could move with 100kg at the 23rd Budokai. That's when he had a BP of at best 400 (hell, even less than that considering he was 416 at the beginning of Z). If we take those "tons feats shows one's BP" then Boo saga base Goku would be way less than 400x above 23rd Budokai Goku, making him way less than 160,000. Guess Goku didn't gain anything from the Zenkai now, huh?

100kg = BP of ~400 (moving at super human speed)
40,000kg = 400x 100kg = couldn't move at all until turning SSJ = making his base power way less than 160,000.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku never surpassed Vegeta in his base form lol.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

No, just no to your first sentence.

I agree though, Freeza clearly gets it despite not being able to sense. Ginyu even figured Goku would be hiding power, so that seems pretty common. Agreed, and besides, it was stated that Dabra's strength was roughly figured out by his movements... he didn't even have ki to be sensed and they evaluated his power. Freeza can do the same.

Exactly. That's why it wouldn't make sense for him to be packing Semi-Cell like power at 50%, then believe he only might have a chance against someone he lost to at 100% of his power. Freeza clearly said he was stronger than before twice, which means Mecha Freeza had to have received a boost in power to even adapt such an opinion. If the best he thinks he can do is "probably" beat Goku alone, he ain't shit to Cell. In any form.

Besides that, we already have countless quotes from people who've sensed both 50% Freeza and Cell:

This is about Cell before he even absorbed #17, or the humans for that matter.

Goku, who already saw and fought 50% Freeza. A Goku that outstripped his level on Namek.

Piccolo, who sensed 50% Freeza, was beyond every Super Saiyan, and equal to #17. He doesn't think there's anyone that can stop Cell. He already knows for a fact the Androids left Freeza in the dust forever ago.

Self-explanatory.

Honestly, the quotes, context, and, I dunno, narrative of the story tells us Freeza is nothing to the new enemies they're facing. No matter how much twisting is humanly possible, you can't change that. Freeza is nothing to the Super Saiyans, Androids, Piccolo, or Cell. If Krillin says Cell is stronger than Freeza, then it means he's stronger than Freeza.

And last but not least: Gohan telling Yamcha that Freeza can get way stronger only means Freeza wasn't at full-power.

That's all that needs to be said.

 

[p123]

Haha, EV is addicted to replying to that piece of shit troll haha! Blocking him was the best thing I ever did, EV you look like a damn fool on my screen. I see you replying to the most retarded concepts and I'm all like what in the world, oh that's right, he's replying to the Tosh dupe. Haha.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." (Mark Twain)

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” (George Carlin)

You are seriously debating who's stronger between Freeza and Cell. Gotta give this Tosh Dupe credit, he's running circles around you. How can you let this kid make you take his line of questioning seriously, you do know he is trolling you right? Man, if this keeps up, I will just assume you are the fool that can't leave it be.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I guess I always assume someone can start looking at things differently with the right information. Unfortunately we're way past that.

Alright. No more replies. I am completely serious this time.

 

[p123]

Freeza (2nd Form) 1,060,000
~ Powered Up 1,350,000
~ Full Power 1,700,000

Piccolo (W/Weights) 1,400,000
~ W/o Weights 1,800,000

Freeza (3rd Form) 2,500,000

Vegeta 4,000,000
~ Final Burst Cannon 8,000,000
~ Hypothetical Super Saiyan 200,000,000

Freeza 4,500,000
~ Powered Up 6,000,000
~ Full Power (Initial) 8,500,000
~ 50% Power 175,000,000
~ 70% 250,000,000
~ 100% Power 350,000,000

Goku (Warm Up) 5,750,000
~ Full Power (Base) 7,500,000
~ Kaioken x10 75,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 150,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 375,000,000




This is what I'm rolling with nowadays. Based on my numbers, Vegeta would have a slight edge, but overall is nothing compared to Freeza and Goku.

 

[freezamite]

To tell the truth, I read EV's post almost a week ago, but I decided to wait for the Defence Force to post to check to which extent each one of them was able to

Nope. Using your logic, Majin Vegeta surpassed Goku because he knocked him out after he dropped his guard.

Irrelevant point is irrelevant.

No Evil Vegeta, that's not called surpassing, that's called CHEATING because he only was able to win after making Goku drop his guard.
Desperation mode surely delivers when it comes to making absurd claims and reasonings LOL

I know what the meaning of surpassing means. You apparently don't. Do you not realize that most of what's listed (ie stronger, to go beyond) aligns with exactly what I'm saying?

Stronger? Care to point where 18 was described to be stronger than SSJ Vegeta? And by what "reasoning" being stronger is surpassing, but having much more endurance isn't? You clearly don't know the meaning of surpassing someone if you think this can only be applied to physical strength... Because tell me Evil Vegeta, between two fighters one being stronger and the other being much better in fighting skills, would you say the stronger surpassed the weaker in a fight where the weaker won because of his much better technique?

Where in that entire statement is he distinguishing how this is happening? Nowhere? Obviously. He's saying all of them are surpassing the Super Saiyan because they're more powerful than the Super Saiyans.

And this is how in a single sentence you manage to contradict yourself. So Vegeta not specifiying in what aspects he was surpassed means that he was surpassed in power. This is fun Evil Vegeta, very fun.

It's remaining in peak condition while the other person doesn't.

Which means that you've surpassed him in endurance, Evil Vegeta. Or are you going to tell me that "surpass" is a term that can only be applied to the brute strength one has? :trapcard

First off, who cares? Vegeta never said anything about losing because of his stamina.

No, Vegeta didn't say it. But Piccolo surely did, and the rest of the z-warriors when they saw the fight and said Vegeta was fighting serious 18 at her same level.

By the way, those the last plain stupidities of you I answer to. From here on I'll only answer to the few honest points you try to make, in other words, I'll only answer to your ignorance. Oh, and I'll start answering ahill1 before continuing to read that shameful post of yours.

Also, Goku not damaging Freeza with that kick can be explained by Freeza only using a small portion of his power to fight Goku... which can lessen the damage according to some examples showed in the manga:

They were just warming up, and once they were at full power they couldn't laugh at each other's attacks.

The same with Goku vs Cell in their warm up, where Cell's attacks couldn't make Goku flinch, quite a different story when they were at full power:

You got it the opposite way. Reducing your Ki reduces every single stat of a fighter, from speed, to reaction speed, to strength, to his defences.
I mean, that's not even debatable when we have scenes like this one:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-109-index-2-page-11.html
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-109-index-2-page-14.html
Why would Vegeta lower his Ki in order to get injured, if according to you that would only make him more resistant and thus harder to injure?

What's a good point is that two fighters warming up won't hurt each other as much as two fighters fighting seriously. But those were Goku and Cell (since you've brought up that fight) after having fought seriously for a while:
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-207-index-2-page-12.html
Do you see any serious injuries on them? Well, Cell had already regenerated his whole upper body here, but Goku couldn't do that, and there we have him, after two chapters of fighting at his full power against a Cell that also fought at his same level, not very injured if any injured at all. He was weakened, but that doesn't apply to someone with unlimited energy so...

That being said, I'll continue owning the most dishonest poster of this forum where he thought he made a good point. It may be unfair to abuse my superior knowledge and intelligence like this, but it's fun so I'll do it.

Hey, you should call AT and tell him about how Freeza wasn't even sure he could handle Goku despite becoming a lot more powerful than he was on Namek. Or how he needed Cold alongside him to guarantee a victory against Goku. Or even better, how would Freeza doubt he could handle someone like Goku when 50% of his power is above the transformed state of the next villain.

Ridiculous points are ridiculous. Firstly, what does Cell's strength have to do with Freezer's statements when Freezer didn't know anything about Cell?
Secondly, Freezer only knew that him having been weakened could barely fight a SSJ Goku that, from his perspective, was also weakened (he didn't know about rage boosts replenishing one's strength).
So it's only logical for him to do what he did. Furthermore, he couldn't know if SSJ Goku would've become stronger as well (we know Goku didn't have time to train, but Freezer didn't have this information) and he didn't know how stronger/weak he had become because he didn't even bother to train before going to earth.

#18 was not impressed with Vegeta at all. He's clearly not on her level because then she would be impressed. She's overlooking him entirely when asking if Goku is stronger.

Maybe to you it would've made more sense for 18 to ask "hey, has Goku turned into an Android and gained unlimited strength like us?" but that would be absurd to anyone else.
18 asked if Goku was stronger because Vegeta, with the strength he had, could have never won against her in a fight. And the possibility of the saiyans turning into androids was 0, even if you can't see it.

The early part of their fight was equal. Goku failed to damage Freeza and even said he was surprised it did nothing. Also, did you seriously forget that Freeza handicapped himself to give Goku a chance? It's obvious that Freeza did this to give Goku a better chance at keeping up.

So what? What does this has to do with Freezer not being able to injure Goku and Goku not being able to injure Freezer? Look at ahill's post, he actually made a good point regarding that (they were warming up so they didn't hit each other with all their might). You, on the other hand, are just Evil Vegeta Evil Vegetaing again.

Freeza would've killed Goku if he didn't use super speed to escape his Imprisonment Ball. That much is obvious. Freeza decided to not use any hands to give Goku a better chance. But hey, you clearly know Freeza's power better than Freeza himself.

Freezer had a slight advantage over Goku there which, again, makes this whole point of yours even pointless. You're trying to argue that when 2 fighters are even they forcibly have to injure themselves in a matter of pages, which is a very flawed argument considering the huge amount of fights were two even fighters don't damage themselves as fast as you say they should.

Suppressed Mecha Freeza and Cold are similar in power. That's stated. Freeza's full-power is above Cold, and we already know that Freeza wasn't powered-up.

So after shitting his pants in front of SSJ Trunks, Mecha proceeded to fight with less than 1/10th his power, because he was just as strong as transformed Cold who was weaker than the Freezer that, at that same form, was surpassed by Vegeta and Piccolo. No Evil Vegeta, Freezer may not have been the smartest guy in the whole series, but he surely was smarter than you considering your reasoning.

"This thing is even stronger than Freeza" is a present tense statement.
"This thing is potentially stronger than Freeza" is a future tense statement.

That, my friend, is twisting a a statement.

The androids wanting to kill Goku and being stronger than that Ginger Town Cell was a "present" fact.
The Z-warriors being scared not of Ginger Town Cell, but a potential Cell having become perfect was also a present fact.
So Krillin asking Goku only about the weakest menace, the only one that at that point could be defeated even without Goku having to fight, would've been nearly as absurd as your claims.
By the way, why would Goku be scared about that Cell when in front of Super Piccolo Bu, who was clearly stronger than him, he lost interest because Gohan could already deal with him?
http://mangalife.us/read-online/Dragon-Ball-chapter-308-index-2-page-10.html
So his answer to Krillin, considering how he acted in front of very similar situations (if you happened to be right, which is not the case) is also nearly as absurd as your posts.

Look Evil Vegeta, if you want a series with protagonists as dumb as you go read One Piece (and even there Luffy comes with clever ideas like the multiple gear techniques, but he is closer to you than any of the z-warriors most of the time).

Oh, I was forgetting this LoL:

Goku was already stronger than Freeza. The stamina drop just made the difference even bigger. Freeza was already surpassed the moment Goku became a Super Saiyan.

Look, that's your absurd claim against what Goku said in the manga, and Goku said the following thing:

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

He said nothing about Freezer being weaker, he said Freezer got outlasted and that he surpassed him as a consequence of that. By the way, notice that this is not a discussion about your desperate interpretation of a given scene, your point was that the manga NEVER used the word "surpass" in a context that wasn't speaking of brute strength. Well, your point (like nearly anything you say) has been proven wrong. Accept it.

I'm still trying to understand how being unable to sense Chi means you don't know your own power.

Freeza knew exactly how much power he was using via % the entire time.

Well, understanding things is not your strong point Evil Vegeta, but don't worry, I'll explain it. Do you know how many units of strength do you have, Evil Vegeta? (that's a dangerous question, because knowing to which extent you're able to lie I fear you'll say "yes" LoL).
For normal human beings, the only way to know how strong we are is to test our strength, for example, lifting weights. If we don't measure our strength with the help of some device, we aren't able to tell how strong we are either.
On the other hand, knowing if we are using all our strength or not is something everyone can do. I can know if I'm running at full speed or not even if I can't measure if I'm going at 20 or 30 km/h exactly only by myself.

Mecha Freezer didn't know the strength he had because he didn't test himself and there wasn't any device that could tell how strong/weak he was.

Back to the defense force:

Yeah Freeza is so dumb/out of reality that he thinks a power below his 3rd form can do any good against SSJ Goku.

No, Freezer didn't know his power was only what it was. He was speaking as if he was stronger than his father while being just as strong as his father's 3rd form. He may had been stupid not to train or check his abilities before heading to earth, but once that's accepted, everything he says makes sense even when he is so wrong.

Vegeta was even shown having some issues in it as well. Since he's over 10 times stronger than a Goku that conquered 100G, he shouldn't have felt it. Let's see where this one goes.

Please Evil Vegeta, stop it. Care to show where Vegeta was shown having problems to deal with a 300G gravity exactly? LoL

 

[KyuubiAhri]

And to think this is a serious thread.....

 

[freezamite]

And to think this is a serious thread.....

Come on KyuubiAhri, as part of EV's defence force you can do better than that. Try to demonstrate that I'm wrong at least once. I mean, you'll leave the discussion just after getting owned like you did in the other thread, but it would be funny to read at least one more of those absurd excuses of you (not you concretely, you in the sense of the whole Evil Vegeta defence force with Evil Vegeta as the absolute master of doing it).

 

[KyuubiAhri]

I wasn't paying attention much aand to be honest,I ain't even gonna reply to this.

Mods please lock this thread if it keeps going like this

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I have no idea why you keep calling them a defense anything. They're not defending me. They're disagreeing with you, yet you want to make this about me. No. Disagreeing is not the issue. The issue is literally twisting the story and making it far more convoluted than it needs to be. The Freeza example is one of many. Certain statements either mean what they say (Vegeta slowly losing power means he's equal to #18), and other statements (Krillin saying Cell>Freeza doesn't mean what it says because Goku wasn't scared of Piccolo????). Yeah.

Either way, I give up. You win.

 

[ahill1]

You got it the opposite way. Reducing your Ki reduces every single stat of a fighter, from speed, to reaction speed, to strength, to his defences.
I mean, that's not even debatable when we have scenes like this one:

That's when you reduce your chi to a level far below the opponent you are fighting. In the example you posted, Vegeta stated he'd lower his chi to the minimum, meaning far below Kuririn's power. I showed you example of two equal fighters fighting in a warm up and no damage being dished out, meaning fighting way below your level against an opponent with equal battle power lessen up thye damage.

Why would Vegeta lower his Ki in order to get injured

Because he was much stronger than Kuririn to the point being damaged would be impossible.

if according to you that would only make him more resistant and thus harder to injure?

That'd make him more resistent if Kuririn was also at a level that didn't dwarf his "lowering to minimal chi".

What's a good point is that two fighters warming up won't hurt each other as much as two fighters fighting seriously.

Yeah, and Freeza was using a very low amount of power at that moment (in fact, below what Goku was using in the warm up against Cell). If attacks from both opponents are shown to have a smaller effect when said opponents aren't going all out, then I don't have a problem thinking that was the case with Goku vs Freeza, specially when Goku was surprised his kick didn't do anything to Freeza and said he expected it to have a better effect.

Do you see any serious injuries on them? Well, Cell had already regenerated his whole upper body here, but Goku couldn't do that, and there we have him, after two chapters of fighting at his full power against a Cell that also fought at his same level, not very injured if any injured at all. He was weakened, but that doesn't apply to someone with unlimited energy so...

Ok, but they could still feel each other's blows upon using their full power (Goku had even to move his head to the side feeling pain after being punched).

 

[Pyro]

This is for Garbage Day.