Hey, we agreed to make a race and I won, so I surpassed him. Period.
Nope. Using your logic, Majin Vegeta surpassed Goku because he knocked him out after he dropped his guard.
Irrelevant point is irrelevant.
The meaning of surpassing in case you don't know it
I know what the meaning of surpassing means. You apparently don't. Do you not realize that most of what's listed (ie stronger, to go beyond) aligns with exactly what I'm saying?
Vegeta said all (as in, he grouped them together) of them were easily surpassing the Super Saiyan. Where in that entire statement is he distinguishing how this is happening? Nowhere? Obviously. He's saying all of them are surpassing the Super Saiyan because they're more powerful than the Super Saiyans. It's a cut and dry statement that you're twisting to make this idea of #18=Vegeta a fact. It isn't, sorry.
In that case, if I win a race it's obvious I surpassed him transcending his capacity to run a certain distance, and yes, you have the word outlast that means
The problem is your example still isn't comparable to what's being discussed. If you won because you were a better runner, then that simply means you were better. If you had the same exact speed and you won because your stamina didn't run out, it means you outlasted him. If you're going to make an analogy, at least make it an accurate one.
Furthermore, if you transcended his capacity, it means you went beyond his level. Why do you think Vegeta kept saying he would "transcend the Super Saiyan?" Because it obviously required him to effectively go beyond the level (Super Saiyan) that already existed. #18 didn't transcend shit. She had the same advantage over Vegeta that she did at the beginning of the fight. You're literally adding elements that aren't there.
Which, guess what, means that you surpass another person or thing in staying energetic or determined.
That's not surpassing at all. It's remaining in peak condition while the other person doesn't. If #18 stayed energetic while Vegeta didn't, she didn't surpass him. Her advantage was already there from the beginning, so it's really silly to say she just happened to surpass him when she already had better stamina before the battle even began.
You're going in circles. #18 ignored Vegeta's attacks and left him in a near-death state. #18 said Vegeta and Goku were nothing after learning that Goku wasn't even stronger than Vegeta. That means she was already overlooking Vegeta's power for a more capable challenger. She's stronger. Deal with it.
Of course 17 would've surpassed Piccolo in their fight. Piccolo was already weakening while 17 wasn't, he would've outlasted Piccolo and won the fight thanks to that, so he would've surpassed Piccolo as a fighter. The fact that you're trying to spin even that it's beyond ridiculous. This is full 100% desperation mode!
Again, outlast. Staying energized. You posted the definition and still can't understand the context of these battles?
Guess Majin Vegeta surpassed Goku because he knocked him out with his back turned. Lol, stop. You're the one being desperate using one part of the definition and ignoring the point of this discussion.
How many androids with unlimited energy had appeared until then, in the whole series? Oh, let me guess, not even one, and that's probably why you thought that "surpass" was never used in that sense before, right?
First off, who cares? Vegeta never said anything about losing because of his stamina. He already knew going into the battle that the Androids had infinite energy, so none of this was a surprise to him. He (and Goku) needed to transcend the Super Saiyan because they were too weak to beat the Androids or Cell. Stated. Vegeta and Goku are in the same league with Vegeta "probably" surpassing him. Goku said he definitely can't beat Cell or the Androids.
Ergo, Piccolo, Androids, Cell>Super Saiyans
But look at what Goku says in here, after Freezer's ki had diminished
Goku was already stronger than Freeza. The stamina drop just made the difference even bigger. Freeza was already surpassed the moment Goku became a Super Saiyan.
And guess what? According to Freeza, even his 100% power was inferior to Super Saiyan Goku. This is exactly why he's not sure if he could defeat the same Super Saiyan Goku after getting a lot stronger. So using the actual story and not freezamite's analysis, Super Saiyan Goku surpassed 100% Freeza before the stamina drop. Looks like you have to take an L here.
Hey, you should call Toriyama to tell him that this is not surpassing, Goku only outlasted Freezer here! And I'm the one "twisting the story" Evil Vegeta? Seriously?
Hey, you should call AT and tell him about how Freeza wasn't even sure he could handle Goku despite becoming a lot more powerful than he was on Namek. Or how he needed Cold alongside him to guarantee a victory against Goku. Or even better, how would Freeza doubt he could handle someone like Goku when 50% of his power is above the transformed state of the next villain
:rape
If your excuse of trying to change the meaning of "surpassing" wasn't ridiculous enough in its own, you have an obvious example from the manga that states what everyone (even you, Evil Vegeta, because you're not that ignorant, just a complete liar that happens to not be very good when speaking about Dragon Ball) should be able to understand.
#18: "Is Goku stronger than you?
Vegeta: "Nope."
#18: "Then neither of you are anything special."
#18 was not impressed with Vegeta at all. He's clearly not on her level because then she would be impressed. She's overlooking him entirely when asking if Goku is stronger. The only one who has an issue understanding this is you. You adding your twist of what "surpass" in the Manga is laughable at best. Stop.
Let's see how you try to spin this, I'm sure it will be an even more ridiculous excuse about... well, even I can't think how you'll try to spin this Evil Vegeta. You're the master in doing that so be my guest.
I don't need to spin anything with you because your assessments are terrible. You have 50% Freeza above Semi-Cell
Another ridiculous excuse. Weren't Goku and Freezer equal before Freezer used 50% of his strength?
The early part of their fight was equal. Goku failed to damage Freeza and even said he was surprised it did nothing. Also, did you seriously forget that Freeza handicapped himself to give Goku a chance? It's obvious that Freeza did this to give Goku a better chance at keeping up.
Because after 3 chapters of fighting, they didn't do any damage to each other! How is that possible? So Freezer wasn't equal to Goku because he wasn't able to injure him and at the same time Goku wasn't equal to Freezer because he also didn't manage to injure him... wow, such an unequalled fight that got equal against your newly made up nonsensical excuse that says "a fight can't be equal in DB if both characters doesn't injure themselves".
Freeza would've killed Goku if he didn't use super speed to escape his Imprisonment Ball. That much is obvious. Freeza decided to not use any hands to give Goku a better chance. But hey, you clearly know Freeza's power better than Freeza himself.
"So far the fight is even."
Guess Kaio saw into the future when Goku was surprised his kick did no damage and when Freeza handicapped himself to give Goku a chance
Wasn't it implied by Gohan and the fact that Mecha Freezer wasn't able to power up in the end, against what they assumed?
What does this have to do with Piccolo being above Mecha Freeza? Gohan sensed 100% Freeza, so all his quote means is Freeza's relaxed level wasn't as high as it could be. Was Initial Freeza way above Piccolo and Vegeta? Yes. Was 50% Freeza way above all of them, including Goku? Yes.
So you've shown nothing with that quote other than he wasn't at full-power. Congrats. Certainly you realize how ridiculous the idea of Piccolo being above Mecha Freeza is, but most likely not.
Wasn't it implied by the fact that transformed Cold, who was weaker than Freezer, had the same speed/reaction speed than Mecha Freezer?
Suppressed Mecha Freeza and Cold are similar in power. That's stated. Freeza's full-power is above Cold, and we already know that Freeza wasn't powered-up.
Wasn't it implied by Trunks having the same ki than Goku at Namek?
Yeah, the same Super Saiyan Chi. That has nothing to do with his level of power.
I'm glad you're taking 16's word over mine, it just happens that #16 never said anything about SSJ Vegeta not having a power able to rival 18 in brute strength, Evil Vegeta.
Because Vegeta never did anything to get #16's attention before his rosat training. Piccolo quickly got #16's attention when he unleashed his full-power to fight #17.
#16 says Piccolo's powerful was large enough to rival the Androids. Vegeta is not strong enough to rival Piccolo, so he's obviously not rivaling the Androids. #17 and #18 are grouped together by #16 (who can measure their power) as powers that Piccolo's new power rivals. If Vegeta is equal to #18, then he clearly rivals Piccolo. It's simple ABC logic.
It just happens that you use 16's sentence to defend something 16 never said, jumping to conclusions and trying to manipulate as much as you can, Evil Vegeta.
Remember the part where you said Krillin
wasn't saying Cell was stronger than Freeza even though that's exactly what he said?
And I see it Evil Vegeta, and that's why you won't fool me, Evil Vegeta.
"This thing is even stronger than Freeza" is a present tense statement.
"This thing is potentially stronger than Freeza" is a future tense statement.
That, my friend, is twisting a a statement.
Yes, and Gohan said Mecha's power was much lower than it should be (assuming Freezer could power up) and then Mecha was obliterated by a guy that had the same power of SSJ Namek Goku while performing at the same level than his transformed, weaker (according to him) father.
And I take Gohan's word over Freezer's because besides the facts being at Gohan's side, he could sense energies while Freezer couldn't.
By the way Evil Vegeta, now that I think it, I have to thank you. With your constant lies you've made me realise ANOTHER evidence of Mecha Freezer being weaker than he said.
Gohan said he could get much stronger. That only means he wasn't at 100%.
How many times does the translation need to be posted before you stop spouting this nonsense? Trunks does
not have the same power as Goku on Namek. Gohan said that was the "same Chi", not the "same amount of Chi". Gohan was the only one who sensed a Super Saiyan, so he's obviously the only one who can speak on the matter.
Freeza doesn't need to sense power to know how powerful he can become. Yeah, Gohan is a better expert at understanding Freeza than Freeza himself. You're not even trying to make sense anymore.
As you said earlier, Vegeta never saw Freezer's final form powering up, did he?
He obviously didn't considering he wasn't around. Now hearing Gohan talk about it is the same as actually knowing it
So how is it that when Gohan stated that Mecha's power should be able to increase a lot more, he wasn't as surprised as Yamcha or Ten Shin according to you?
You're still not understanding. Vegeta has no idea how strong 50% or 100% Freeza is. Hearing Gohan talk about it isn't the same as actually sensing it firsthand. Also, Vegeta not reacting means nothing. He was already panicking as much as everyone else when they sensed Freeza coming. You still have yet to prove how Piccolo is stronger than Mecha Freeza.
Because at that point, Mecha was already above the weakest state of his previous true form, wasn't it? How is it that Vegeta didn't react when Gohan said Freezer could still increase his power a lot more if that is true?
For the last friggin time, Freeza in his lowest state easily killed Vegeta. Vegeta does not need to react to the statement when we clearly see what happened to Vegeta against a suppressed Freeza. Using actual logic, this would be no different if a more powerful Mecha Freeza fought Vegeta, much less Piccolo.
You mean the same "official" pieces of information that put Nappa below Goku at the earth? It's a shame that the most official piece of information, the manga, disagrees with that, don't you think.
Yes, because the Daizenshuu is clearly the only thing that said Mecha Freeza was more powerful than Freeza. It's a shame that the Manga has Freeza say he's more powerful than before.
Meanwhile, freezamite disputes this by saying Freeza's wrong because he can't measure his own power. Even better, freezamite says Freeza is stronger than Semi-Cell,so he's more of an expert about Freeza's power than Freeza himself. Clearly we should take anything you say seriously.
And it's a shame that Toriyama, in an interview, also put Goku at 1/4 the strength of Freezer at Namek, so even if you try to argue that "the official information is better than the manga" you'll always have the author's word on the subject, that's the most official thing there exists.
Yeah, no. Super Saiyan>>>>Kaio-Ken x20>>>>Kaio-Ken x10. It's called logic. Use it.
Secondly, AT said the Daizenshuu is a great source for information. That means the information is perfectly valid to use unless it contradicts the Manga. Most of the crap you're going on about are your own issues with the story. Your understanding of a story for kids is so out of touch with reality that it's sad.
Not more than "anyone else" Evil Vegeta, but more than you for sure. Yes, Freezer said he was stronger, and Gohan contradicted it and then the facts also contradicted it.
He can get much stronger=Freeza isn't at 100%
Very simple to comprehend. You don't understand that there's no contradiction other than the one you're creating. Freeza wasn't at full-power. Gohan says he could get much stronger. Trunks tells Freeza to come at him at full-power. Please read the story and stop inserting your opinions as if they're facts
#20 said SSJ Goku's power wasn't something #19 couldn't handle, but after the fact #19 was completely owned by Goku until the heart disease got too bad.
Then he said the power-up was far above his calculations. That means he obviously miscalculated his power.
Facts > statements Evil Vegeta, since forever.
Gohan's assessment on Freeza is a statement. Freeza not being at full-power is a fact. Put 2 and 2 together and you get a simple conclusion.
