SSJ4 > SSJB

[Keedounan]

Here are my arguments:

The SSJ4 is a potential unlock, which means that the user get their current dormant power, making them as powerful as they possibly can, though the potential is always retconned in Dragon Ball. So, if DBS Goku get a potential unlock, he will be quite obviously much stronger than he is in SSJB. In this scenario, SSJ4 > SSJB.

And frankly, it just looks so much better.

 

[SSJ2]

I agree, but knowing Toei, SSJ4 would somehow be weaker. Going by logic, SSJ4 > anything aside from a beyond limits upgrade.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Toriyama said that SSJG/SSJB is a form that Goku cannot achieve by training for a million years.

 

[Papasmurf]

God infused SSJ4 would be stronger if it existed (not saying much though considering it's suggested Gohan with his retconned full potential unlocked would be >>> SSJBs), but yeah GT top tiers are trash compared to Super imo.

 

[Keedounan]

Toriyama said that SSJG/SSJB is a form that Goku cannot achieve by training for a million years.

Yet Vegeta did in 6 months. It means that they just need the right training (namely Whis' training).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Toriyama said that SSJG/SSJB is a form that Goku cannot achieve by training for a million years.

Yet Vegeta did in 6 months. It means that they just need the right training (namely Whis' training).

Yeah, it takes a god training to reach that form something that SSjin4 doesn't require and can reach it by a simple training.

 

[Papasmurf]

Venato is talking about some godly enhanced SSJ4 though. We know GT characters ain't that strong.

 

[Keedounan]

Toriyama said that SSJG/SSJB is a form that Goku cannot achieve by training for a million years.

Yet Vegeta did in 6 months. It means that they just need the right training (namely Whis' training).

Yeah, it takes a god training to reach that form something that SSjin4 doesn't require and can reach it by a simple training.

You don't seem to understand the point of my thread. I'm talking about a particular scenario in which the SSJ4 could be stronger. For example, if, say, Goku (DBS) who could absorb the SSJG power and grow exponentially more powerful since then or Vegeta (DBS), who could get the SSJB on their own, had their potential unlocked, it's quite obvious that their power would be much higher than their own as SSJB.

Note: the SSJ4 requires to be able to tame the Golden Oozaru form and making it evolve. You can't achieve it by training.

 

[Papasmurf]

SSJ4 is a potential unlock so one can hypothetically reach that power through regular training, is his point I assume

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

How was SSJB achieved again?

 

[Keedounan]

SSJ4 is a potential unlock so one can hypothetically reach that power through regular training, is his point I assume

All kinds of training should count as a part of the potential, though. I don't think that Goku would have been able to go that far if he didn't trained with Kaio-Sama.

 

[Papasmurf]

Obtaining God ki and fusing the SSJ form with it or some crap

SSJ4 is a potential unlock so one can hypothetically reach that power through regular training, is his point I assume

All kinds of training should count as a part of the potential, though. I don't think that Goku would have been able to go that far if he didn't trained with Kaio-Sama.

Right, but he later trained harder than Kaio-sama on his own with just gravity training or the Rosat. Which means Kaio training is basically just suped up training compared to what he did before, and not converting himself to a different type of ki like unlocking SSJG/SSJB did.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Not to mention that SSjin4 was obtained with Old Kai's knowledge as well who is a god himself so both are equal.

 

[Papasmurf]

For lack of better term SSJ4 is a "natural" form that's just SSJ and Oozaru stacked, while the SSJG can't be reached without the help of others unless trained by someone on Hakaishin tier. So it makes sense that the former is inferior to the latter even though a potential unlocked SSJB would be much much stronger.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

For lack of better term SSJ4 is a "natural" form that's just SSJ and Oozaru stacked, while the SSJG can't be reached without the help of others unless trained by someone on Hakaishin tier. So it makes sense that the former is inferior to the latter even though a potential unlocked SSJB would be much much stronger.

This is what I've been trying to say but I just can't

 

[Keedounan]

Obtaining God ki and fusing the SSJ form with it or some crap

SSJ4 is a potential unlock so one can hypothetically reach that power through regular training, is his point I assume

All kinds of training should count as a part of the potential, though. I don't think that Goku would have been able to go that far if he didn't trained with Kaio-Sama.

Right, but he later trained harder than Kaio-sama on his own with just gravity training or the Rosat. Which means Kaio training is basically just suped up training compared to what he did before, and not converting himself to a different type of ki like unlocking SSJG/SSJB did.

That's precisely my point. It doesn't matter if you have a good potential, without the right training, you won't achieve much. That's obvious indeed, but it should be taken into account for the SSJ4.

I do admit that the Whis training was the one he benefitted from the most, though. But, if anything, it says a lot about his own potential. Absorbing the SSJG was supposed to be impossible, but he not only did, but he has also brought his power above it, even unlocking a SSJ form out of it.

 

[Papasmurf]

Right but like I said, the SSJ4 form (GT) has no godly ki which should be taken into account for the actual one we see in Toei works. A god ki SSJ4 would be very powerful, but that doesn't mean SSJ4 without god training will result in such power

That said, we do see Future Trunks get to SSJB tier without Whis' training, but at least him stating he can sense SSJB Vegetto's ki suggests his form incorporates god ki somehow.

 

[Keedounan]

Right but like I said, the SSJ4 form (GT) has no godly ki which should be taken into account for the actual one we see in Toei works. A god ki SSJ4 would be very powerful, but that doesn't mean SSJ4 without god training will result in such power

Indeed. Unless the user has a potential that powerful without god ki, like, say, Kyabe.

That said, we do see Future Trunks get to SSJB tier without Whis' training, but at least him stating he can sense SSJB Vegetto's ki suggests his form incorporates god ki somehow.

Unfortunately, we won't find out more about it anytime soon...

 

[Future Warrior]

I think god ki has somewhat of an effect on you're potential, which is the reason how Goku and Vegeta got stronger than Gohan. A hypothetical SSJ4 Goku from Z wouldn't hold hold a candle to the top dogs of the Boo Saga. If he were to have the form post Whis training however, then it would most certainly be stronger than SSB.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Then imagine if Gohan trains with Whis.