SSJB Vegeta vs SSJ Black

[SSJ2]

Hit was fooling around with Goku the whole time and even asked him to just transform already. 10% SSJB is at least > SSJ, no way they're around the same.

In what world was he fooling around against SSJ Goku? He even went as far as to say that he had to jump even further into the future because of SSJ Goku's performance. Whis also said that SSJG Goku was far superior to Hit. It's implied that Hit was close to SSJ Goku by Vados as well, saying that Goku would only lose because his stamina would drop first.

Because of SSJB fatigue. Post senzu they fight off screen and both are battered.

Not true. We see the entirety of the fight. Vegeta flies over to Black after taking the senzu, has a brief exchange with him, and then Black starts pulverizing him.

 

[SSJ2]

If you look at the Toppo fight, the way they potrayed SSG makes it seem like a lot more than just a mere double increase or something.

It could be that the other SSJ forms are so far reduced in comparison. SSJ definitely doesn't seem to be a 50x boost for example.

Maybe SSJ3 is only 3-4x stronger than SSJ which leaves more room.

 

[Future Warrior]

It could be that the other SSJ forms are so far reduced in comparison. SSJ definitely doesn't seem to be a 50x boost for example.

Maybe SSJ3 is only 3-4x stronger than SSJ which leaves more room.

Even then that feels too big.

That would put SSG way too close to full power Blue, which definitely isn’t the case.

I honestly just don’t believe in the god tier base form stance.

 

[SSJ2]

Even then that feels too big.

That would put SSG way too close to full power Blue, which definitely isn’t the case.

I honestly just don’t believe in the god tier base form stance.

It's pretty hard to go with another route given the U6 tournament.



Hit's abilities were effective on 10% SSJB Vegeta, and they were still effective on SSJ Goku despite Goku keeping up pretty well. If Vegeta had the same intel he would perform better than SSJ Goku did, but as per Whis' statement he was still within the range of being affected by Hit's powers. Not only that but he was knocked out by what looked to be a mere 8-9 attacks from Hit, implying they aren't that far apart in power.

And I agree that it doesn't sound right, but it's like Dagon said. These statements are only taking into account Blue's sustained level, which is far beneath the full level used in Bursts.

Might look like this:

SSJ Goku: 10
SSJ3 Goku: 30
SSJG Goku: 90
SSJB (sustained): 120
SSJB Bursts: 360

Those numbers are completely arbitrary but SSJB is still eons away from the other forms, at the very least in Burst form. Blue doesn't look like a huge increase to me in the Future Trunks arc, at least until they use it in bursts.

 

[Future Warrior]

Those numbers are completely arbitrary but SSJB is still eons away from the other forms, at the very least in Burst form. Blue doesn't look like a huge increase to me in the Future Trunks arc, at least until they use it in bursts.

What implies using Blue in bursts offers that much greater power than the actual form?

It’s just them tapping into the power without the effect of drainage.

Also sustained blue is literally the perfected version.

 

[Papasmurf]

Perfected Blue is far stronger than burst blue, Merged Zamasu while toying was able to move faster than either the SSJGs could see and knock them straight out of God in one attack (showing he was on a different tier from Rose Black, to the point that Blue bursts would be ineffective as Vegeta didn't even attempt a burst after), not to mention Blue Vegeta despite the Rosat training was knocked out casually with one hand after (a dominance Burst Blue was never able to exert against any opponent on Blue/Rose tier). And FP Merged Zamasu is still a tiny bit below PSSJB Goku. It makes no sense but if I had to rationalize it, concentrating Blue's power in a smaller surface area (e.g. the body) without the leakage it normally has with the aura up causes Ki to rise similar to concentrating power inside the palms or fingers.

Of course, it's all just bad writing and Toyo, as you said, has the writing talent of a grade schooler. Case in point is Blue Goku seeming to use the unmastered version of Blue despite its inferiority against Granolah just for the "aura burst coolness factor," only to go back to using PSSJB (with passive UI) right after and onwards.

 

[SSJ2]

What implies using Blue in bursts offers that much greater power than the actual form?

It’s just them tapping into the power without the effect of drainage.

Also sustained blue is literally the perfected version.

The fact that SSJB Vegeta was getting dominated by a weaker SSJ Black as I outlined in the opening post. When he used Bursts he was dominating SSJR Black who also had Zenkais to further boost his strength.

When I say sustained I don't mean CSSJB. I mean regular SSJB for sustained use with an aura. The point was made that storing the power of Blue for each individual attack is far stronger than fighting with the form normally.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In what world was he fooling around against SSJ Goku? He even went as far as to say that he had to jump even further into the future because of SSJ Goku's performance. Whis also said that SSJG Goku was far superior to Hit. It's implied that Hit was close to SSJ Goku by Vados as well, saying that Goku would only lose because his stamina would drop first.

That's a translation issue. In the original Hit says he'll out-predict Goku's predictions.

"オレはその先を行くのみ / Then I'll just have to out-predict that."
"じゃオラはさらにその動きを予想すっぞ!! / Then I'll just predict your prediction!!"

Hit is pretty much playing along and seeing who can predict better. He's testing Goku just like before, except SSJ is obviously much stronger than Base. He's still waiting for Goku to transform right until the end, he should have a comfortable lead at the very least.

Not sure how to talk about Vados' line because Timeskip is confusing. Like, why is Goku more tired? Sure, the timeskip itself doesn't eat Hit's stamina, but he's still moving around and predicting Goku's movements.

Not true. We see the entirety of the fight. Vegeta flies over to Black after taking the senzu, has a brief exchange with him, and then Black starts pulverizing him.

Knowing how SSJB works, isn't that "brief" (we don't know how long it was) exchange enough for Vegeta's power to start decreasing?

I want to say Vegeta might have stomped Black before he got weaker, but I think that's something he'd show if it were the case. They probably fought evenly until Vegeta's power started to fade.

What implies using Blue in bursts offers that much greater power than the actual form?

It’s just them tapping into the power without the effect of drainage.

Also sustained blue is literally the perfected version.

The transformation alone costs Blue a lot of power. Using the bursts they turn to a lower form before the power fades.

With PSSJB, I guess the story tries to sell off PSSJB = SSJB bursts, but then Merged Zamasu just one shot Vegeta the moment he tried a burst.

 

[Future Warrior]

The fact that SSJB Vegeta was getting dominated by a weaker SSJ Black as I outlined in the opening post. When he used Bursts he was dominating SSJR Black who also had Zenkais to further boost his strength.

I know it's hard to believe, but the reality is it just gets that much weaker at a near instant rate. Me and someone else already pointed that out.

When I say sustained I don't mean CSSJB. I mean regular SSJB for sustained use with an aura. The point was made that storing the power of Blue for each individual attack is far stronger than fighting with the form normally.

CSSJB = 100
Burst Blue = Between 80-100
SSJB = 50
10% Blue Vegeta = 10

With PSSJB, I guess the story tries to sell off PSSJB = SSJB bursts, but then Merged Zamasu just one shot Vegeta the moment he tried a burst.

That's wasn't Blue burst that Merged Zamasu one shot.

And regardless, it doesn't change anything whether Burst Blue is close to CSSJB or not. The point is that CSSJB is simply Blue without energy drain.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’d say

SSJB (<10%) = 0.4
SSJG = 1
SSJB (Usually) = 5
SSJB (Bursts) = SSJB (The second you transform) = 10
PSSJB = 50

Here’s one thing I don’t get (and that’s related to OP): If Bursts = SSJB, doesn’t that mean Black failed to reach Goku’s full power?

 

[Papasmurf]

I’d say

SSJB (<10%) = 0.4
SSJG = 1
SSJB (Usually) = 5
SSJB (Bursts) = SSJB (The second you transform) = 10
PSSJB = 50

Here’s one thing I don’t get (and that’s related to OP): If Bursts = SSJB, doesn’t that mean Black failed to reach Goku’s full power?

Rose probably has a stamina issue like Blue, since they're counterparts. Black presumably doesn't know how to go down to the SSJG form or something, or wouldn't be able to switch forms rapidly like Vegeta did.

 

[Future Warrior]

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's wasn't Blue burst that Merged Zamasu one shot.

How does that work? He just transformed.

 

[Papasmurf]

Beerus mentioned that a freshly transformed Blue had great explosive power. It's a burst.

 

[Future Warrior]

How does that work? He just transformed.

It doesn't matter even if it was. Burst Blue doesn't have to strictly be 100%, like I said.