SSJG vs SSJ3

[Dagon]

Some of you are reading too much into it, trying to strong-arm distinct meanings out of very generalized quotes.

SSJB is a SSJG that turns SSJ. Thus 50x SSJG.

In regards to the anime perhaps, but not the manga. SSj God is stronger than 10% of Blue, meaning it's most likely that full power Blue is less than 10x stronger than God.

It's the same for both. "Less than 10%" is any amount less than 10%. Where do you draw the line? 9%? 5%? 1%? The argument becomes too reliant on rhetoric when you split hairs over these very generalized statements.

Nah, but showing the evidence would’ve been nice.

DBS Broly is canon to the manga(whether or not it is canon to the anime as well, it may be canon to both but it is at least canon to the manga). In which, there is the whole Ikari Broly situation I described earlier. If SSJG is no greater than 10x SSJ3 based on my earlier statement, then it requires Goku and Vegeta to have lower forms much greater than their Z & BoG selves to make up for that difference. Example:

BoG Goku:
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSJG: 400,000 (using your multiplier for demonstration)

Then the SSJG form should be no less than what it was before, but now the gap between it and SSJ3 is reduced, which means Goku's base and yellow SSJ forms are greater.

SSJG: 400,000
SSJ3: 40,000
SSJ2: 10,000
SSJ: 5,000
Base: 100

 

[SSJ2]

There’s no multiplier for just solving a stamina problem.

The word multiplier is irrelevant. It's the difference in power that is beyond laughable.

 

[Future Warrior]

It's the same for both. "Less than 10%" is any amount less than 10%. Where do you draw the line? 9%? 5%? 1%? The argument becomes too reliant on rhetoric when you split hairs over these very generalized statements.

If Vegeta was less than 1% of his power than Whis would have said as such. 10% would be a nonsensical number to say if he wanted to outline how much weaker Vegeta had gotten.

If anything is arbitrary it's you trying to rationalize some number that a guidebook gave out several decades ago that was never relevant at any point to the actual source material.

 

[Dagon]

It's the same for both. "Less than 10%" is any amount less than 10%. Where do you draw the line? 9%? 5%? 1%? The argument becomes too reliant on rhetoric when you split hairs over these very generalized statements.

If Vegeta was less than 1% of his power than Whis would have said as such. 10% would be a nonsensical number to say if he wanted to outline how much weaker Vegeta had gotten.

If anything is arbitrary it's you trying to rationalize some number that a guidebook gave out several decades ago that was never relevant at any point to the actual source material.

The multipliers haven't been rescinded by the officials that run the franchise. Them's the facts. Anything else is headcanon.

It's not a rule established in-universe that characters have to describe power gaps as you personally prefer.

 

[Future Warrior]

The multipliers haven't been rescinded by the officials that run the franchise. Them's the facts. Anything else is headcanon.

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point. - Toriyama

50x or any multiplication in fact was never a strict rule that the makers of the franchise were going by. If you truly believe that then you're delusional.

It's not a rule established in-universe that characters have to describe power gaps as you personally prefer.

The hypocrisy is real with this one.

If you want to believe some guy called Joe from Shueisha earning minimum wage who came up with that number is the word of god, be my guest. Not everyone has to feel the same way.

 

[GSM123]

The word multiplier is irrelevant. It's the difference in power that is beyond laughable.

I really don’t see what’s the point of complaining about power differences if you’re really set on SSJB only being 10x stronger than SSJ1.

DBS Broly is canon to the manga(whether or not it is canon to the anime as well, it may be canon to both but it is at least canon to the manga). In which, there is the whole Ikari Broly situation I described earlier. If SSJG is no greater than 10x SSJ3 based on my earlier statement, then it requires Goku and Vegeta to have lower forms much greater than their Z & BoG selves to make up for that difference. Example:

BoG Goku:
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSJG: 400,000 (using your multiplier for demonstration)

Then the SSJG form should be no less than what it was before, but now the gap between it and SSJ3 is reduced, which means Goku's base and yellow SSJ forms are greater.

SSJG: 400,000
SSJ3: 40,000
SSJ2: 10,000
SSJ: 5,000
Base: 100

The problem is, you reckon Base Broly caps out somewhere above SSJ Vegeta, but you don’t give any upper limit for his power. 1,000x was probably an exaggeration, but what stops Base Broly of being far above SSJ3 Goku?

If you want to believe some guy called Joe from Shueisha earning minimum wage who came up with that number is the word of god, be my guest. Not everyone has to feel the same way.

Tell that to Joe’s face:

Spoiler

 

[Future Warrior]

Tell that to Joe’s face:

Spoiler

I couldn't come up with a Japanese name, so I went with Joe. Regardless though...

He could suck my fat juicy dick.

 

[SSJ2]

I really don’t see what’s the point of complaining about power differences if you’re really set on SSJB only being 10x stronger than SSJ1.

How is that relevant to the subject at hand? There is direct evidence in the manga for Blue being roughly 10x SSJ whether you follow it or not. The numbers you've posted have no backing within the manga and seem to favour being extremely minimalist instead of being logical. If Black is 90, and SSJB Vegeta was dominating him, how the hell can Merged Zamasu/CSSJB Goku only amount to 100? Vegeta was still fresh when he began fighting Merged Zamasu and was one shotted immediately. It's absurd to say that Vegeta was a 95 to MZ's 100 in that situation.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Super Saiyan[/mention] Just saying you can’t have Blue 10x stronger than SSJ1 with spacious gaps between each form. It’s like trying to both have and eat the cake.

I really don’t know what to say about Vegeta because Goku genuinely would’ve killed Zamasu and lasts far longer than Vegeta despite having no strength left. On the other hand Vegeta’s bursts should allow him to be as strong as Zamasu (Or at least better than even a healthy Goku), but he falls to the ground like shit with a love tap. Zamasu must have hit him on a weak spot or something.

 

[GSM123]

God being 75% of Blue doesn't explain the Goku Black fight. Jesus Christ, think for a second. Stupid idiots.

This is the man you’re listening to, [mention]Super Saiyan[/mention]. Do you really want to agree with him?

 

[Pyro]

Initial Merged Zamasu attacked SSJG Goku and Vegeta so quickly they weren't even sure he hit them, but they reverted out of God immediately.

Ch. 23, pg. 4.2-4
Context: after Zamasu blitzes Goku and Vegeta
Vegeta: “D-dammit…”
Trunks: “Did he…attack them…? I didn’t see it at all…”
Goku: “Crap… When did he even…?!”

Then he elbowed Vegeta right out of Super Saiyan Blue and was handily deflecting Goku's attacks while taunting him.

Ch. 23, pg. 8.6
Context: as Goku and Zamasu fight
Trunks: “He’s deflecting every one of Goku’s attacks…!”

Ch. 23, pg. 9.4-5
Context: after Goku’s been knocked down
Zamasu: “It’s as if you’re not even moving. Son Goku! You were quite arrogant just a moment ago…”

The Kamehameha caught him off-guard but it was pretty much point-blank. Then he got Goku (who fell out of Blue here) and Vegeta in that psychic chokehold before powering up with the explosive wave.

Ch. 23, pg. 13.1
Context: as Zamasu holds Goku and Vegeta in a psychic choke
Zamasu: “Well then… Let’s see how strong my power can get!”

Ch. 23, pg. 15.5-7
Context: after Zamasu’s huge explosive wave
Zamasu: “Perfect… This is too perfect. This is amazing!! This is devastating power!! This is it! This is what I’ve wanted!! Look at this, filthy Lord of Lords!!! The time of you feeble gods watching over everyone is now over!!”

Goku somehow managed to fight him again with Blue, but it was a futile effort and Trunks noticed Zamasu wasn't trying either. To be fair, at this point, Goku was pretty banged up.

Ch. 23, pg. 26.1
Context: as Trunks watches Goku and Zamasu fight
Trunks: “This is bad… He’s just toying with them…”

Now how in the hell is that going to fit in a 10% gap? He was effortlessly dealing with them before he even powered up, then continued toying with them after that.

 

[SSJ2]

Nail vs Freeza was also a 10% gap.

 

[Dagon]

The multipliers haven't been rescinded by the officials that run the franchise. Them's the facts. Anything else is headcanon.

Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point. - Toriyama

50x or any multiplication in fact was never a strict rule that the makers of the franchise were going by. If you truly believe that then you're delusional.

What he was saying is that he originally thought of SSJ as 10x base. But we know that is impossible because of Goku using Kaio-Ken x10 and x20. So Toriyama forgot as he famously does. The guidebook writers provided something more accurate to the source material.

It's not a rule established in-universe that characters have to describe power gaps as you personally prefer.

The hypocrisy is real with this one.

What hypocrisy?
What I mean is it is not a rule written within the series that characters won't react in awe to a power level lower than the highest one they have felt up to that point. If you can find that rule written down somewhere, quote it. I'd love to see it.

If you want to believe some guy called Joe from Shueisha earning minimum wage who came up with that number is the word of god, be my guest. Not everyone has to feel the same way.

So you're making a claim that a Japanese man was named Joe and worked for minimum wage at Shueisha. Then prove it.
Obviously sarcasm, but the point is you can't discredit the material when you're just a fan slapping his keyboard whereas they actually got to work on the official guidebooks. You don't have the authority to invalidate them, only the publishers do.

The problem is, you reckon Base Broly caps out somewhere above SSJ Vegeta, but you don’t give any upper limit for his power. 1,000x was probably an exaggeration, but what stops Base Broly of being far above SSJ3 Goku?

Can you give me a good reason for why he should be?

Nail vs Freeza was also a 10% gap.

What are you talking about? Nail was 42k and Freeza was 530k.

 

[SSJ2]

What are you talking about? Nail was 42k and Freeza was 530k

Sarcasm man. I'm mocking the idea that Merged Zamasu could be as little as 5-10% above SSJB Vegeta. If that's the case, what's to stop Nail vs Freeza being a 10% gap?

 

[GSM123]

Can you give me a good reason for why he should be?

Don’t redirect the question man. Of course I can’t, but that’s besides the point. I’m trying to see if my fan made numbers can work, not if they’re facts.

Now how in the hell is that going to fit in a 10% gap? He was effortlessly dealing with them before he even powered up, then continued toying with them after that.

You’re right, it should be smaller. Nobody can pierce through someone 1.1x stronger than them.

 

[Pyro]

No power-up in the series has been as tiny as you're suggesting.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Might as well time I weigh in here. Was going to forego doing so with how heavily this thread rotates around the notion on battle powers being a consistent system, but oh well.

Concerning the OP, I wouldn't say that sequence really suggests the contradiction [mention]Super Saiyan[/mention] is going for or necessarily that the gap between SS3 and the God forms is greater than that between Base and SS3. All Goku and the Hakaishin's reactions really show is that SSG is far stronger than SS3 and that Goku can fight against someone who can stomp his SS3 form if he uses his next transformation (something already apparent with how he oneshotted someone equal to his SS3 self in the previous arc).
Even if we were to interpret it in the way suggested in the OP, it would only contradict the idea of SSJ being close to 10% of SSB if Ki/battle powers were a consistent measurement of scale, which it's extremely apparent is the furthest thing from the truth considering the drastic jump in destructive capability between the 23rd TB and the start of Z, how inconsistent durability and speed feats are with perceived gaps, etc. to the point that even if SSJ Goku was near 10% the Ki of his SSB self, that's not to say he'd have 10% the overall power, speed, etc. as him in the same way Roshi had over 1/3 the Ki of Piccolo at the start of Z despite the actual difference between them being inconceivably greater than that.

If that's the case, what's to stop Nail vs Freeza being a 10% gap?

That we have actual battle powers given to them .

Such a shame that I actually have SSJG as a thousand fold boost since I have DBS Goku = Z Goku

So you think Z Galu would consider it possible for him to oneshot Perfect Cell and be okay to start a fight in SSJ against Pure Boo?

Now how in the hell is that going to fit in a 10% gap? He was effortlessly dealing with them before he even powered up, then continued toying with them after that.

The same way that, at best, the gap between Goku at the start of DB and the start of Z is little over a 30x one at best despite the constant speedblitzes and bloats in destructive capability throughout Part 1 until the end of Z - battle powers aren't designed as a consistent system and fans put more work into pretending they were than Toriyama put into it to begin with.
For the record, I'm not agreeing with GSM's list or anything since I wouldn't say PSSB would factor into Whis' equation when he'd likely only refer to what Goku and Vegeta could output on a regular basis. I'm just pointing out the pointlessness in arguments about battle powers and numerical gaps when not only were they inconsistent during their use in the story, but what relevance they had to the plot died in the Freeza Arc and arguing about numbers after the Boo Arc is pretty much the same as arguing about battle powers for Part 1.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

If it helps in the anime, Beerus used 10% of his power against Vegeta and also implied SSJ3 Goku was still stronger.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I couldn't come up with a Japanese name, so I went with Joe. Regardless though...

He could suck my fat juicy dick.

If it's this Japanese Joe, I don't think that's happening.

Spoiler

 

[Future Warrior]

Idk that guy, but I'm assuming the joke is that he could be the fuck out of me in a fight. I have other ways of doing the deed.