SSJG vs SSJ3

[Pyro]

I don't get it. 30x isn't 1.1x, right?

 

[GSM123]

Idk that guy, but I'm assuming the joke is that he could be the fuck out of me in a fight. I have other ways of doing the deed.

That's Joe.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't get it. 30x isn't 1.1x, right?

My point is that the gap between characters is in no way a linear measurement of power and speed when the difference between Goku at the start of DB compared to the start of Z is at most Wall level versus at least Moon level, a gap of over a billion times condensed down to a 30x or so gap. More to the point, the difference between City busting Piccolo Daimao and his Moon busting BoZ son isn't even treat as a 2x difference battle power-wise, despite it not only being treat as a colossal difference with measurement systems out of universe, but by feats and statements within. If anything, the plot seems to treat the even lower difference between Daimao and 23rd TB Piccolo as more impressive than that between SSR Black and Merged Zamasu.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

All I know is based on whats in this thread, GT Chadku would mollywop Ssjb Galu without Ssj4

 

[Captain Cadaver]

All I know is based on whats in this thread, GT Chadku would mollywop Ssjb Galu without Ssj4

Of course. Regardless of how powerful DBS Galu is, GT Goku's not getting put in the emergency ward by a tiny laser from being off-guard .

 

[Future Warrior]

Might as well time I weigh in here. Was going to forego doing so with how heavily this thread rotates around the notion on battle powers being a consistent system, but oh well.

Concerning the OP, I wouldn't say that sequence really suggests the contradiction @Super Saiyan is going for or necessarily that the gap between SS3 and the God forms is greater than that between Base and SS3. All Goku and the Hakaishin's reactions really show is that SSG is far stronger than SS3 and that Goku can fight against someone who can stomp his SS3 form if he uses his next transformation (something already apparent with how he oneshotted someone equal to his SS3 self in the previous arc).
Even if we were to interpret it in the way suggested in the OP, it would only contradict the idea of SSJ being close to 10% of SSB if Ki/battle powers were a consistent measurement of scale, which it's extremely apparent is the furthest thing from the truth considering the drastic jump in destructive capability between the 23rd TB and the start of Z, how inconsistent durability and speed feats are with perceived gaps, etc. to the point that even if SSJ Goku was near 10% the Ki of his SSB self, that's not to say he'd have 10% the overall power, speed, etc. as him in the same way Roshi had over 1/3 the Ki of Piccolo at the start of Z despite the actual difference between them being inconceivably greater than that.

The main point of the argument is that Goku bothers to mention that as a SSj God he'll be completely different than he was previously but doesn't really make note of that as a SSj3 after going through all of his forms. This indicates that SSjG-SSj3 > SSj3-Base. This is entirely separate from gap logic.

As for your next point, who's to say that SSJ Goku (~Z) isn't 10% of Blue either? Wouldn't have a problem with this idea btw.

It's either a retcon or Hit was just fooling around with SSJ1 Goku.

 

[GSM123]

SSJ Goku (~Z) isn't 10% of Blue either?

This is not taking account Joe's shitty guidebooks, right?

 

[Future Warrior]

I’ve created a new forum meme.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The main point of the argument is that Goku bothers to mention that as a SSj God he'll be completely different than he was previously but doesn't really make note of that as a SSj3 after going through all of his forms. This indicates that SSjG-SSj3 > SSj3-Base. This is entirely separate from gap logic.

I get that, but the thing is that the topic revolves around it being a numerical gap, which we can both agree is wildly inconsistent when it comes to determining a gap in power between two fighters as with the Part 1 comparison.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the gap between SS3-SSG being greater in terms of energy values and the like rather than battle power, considering the only feats of lower forms on par with the Multi-Galaxy level displays of SSG tiers are durability ones (which are always naturally greater than attack power for Goku/Vegeta, plot armour or no), though I'd still say reading into this example as the main crux of the argument is dubious when considering the God forms are by nature far different from the regular SSJs in more than power, so there's more reason to wait until then to refer to it being a different league rather than repeating such ad-nauseam with every transformation.

As for your next point, who's to say that SSJ Goku (~Z) isn't 10% of Blue either? Wouldn't have a problem with this idea btw.

The image training alone presents Goku as vastly superior to his Boo Arc self prior to Whis' training and the manga makes it apparent he's far from hitting his limit (particularly with his and Vegeta's training gains in the Moro Arc). Wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the idea of him being below the likes of, say, BoG SSJ Vegetto though considering how subjective gaps concerning Ki are, though it's evident he's still far above his Boo Arc self in equal forms at least, something further evidenced by Goku considering a guy who could beat a SS3 tier Trunks as not something to take too lightly.

It's either a retcon or Hit was just fooling around with SSJ1 Goku.

Wouldn't say any of this suggests a retcon, since being around 10% of one's Ki can potentially mean being vastly below that in stats for reasons already mentioned. Hit definitely didn't seem to be fooling around compared to his fight with Vegeta either, considering him bringing out his hands and taking a stance is treat like an increase in scale overall.

 

[Future Warrior]

I get that, but the thing is that the topic revolves around it being a numerical gap, which we can both agree is wildly inconsistent when it comes to determining a gap in power between two fighters as with the Part 1 comparison.
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the gap between SS3-SSG being greater in terms of energy values and the like rather than battle power, considering the only feats of lower forms on par with the Multi-Galaxy level displays of SSG tiers are durability ones (which are always naturally greater than attack power for Goku/Vegeta, plot armour or no), though I'd still say reading into this example as the main crux of the argument is dubious when considering the God forms are by nature far different from the regular SSJs in more than power, so there's more reason to wait until then to refer to it being a different league rather than repeating such ad-nauseam with every transformation.

When we discuss things like percentages, then it's impossible for there not to be a consistent scale. The difference between 20% and 10% is smaller than the difference between 30% and 90%. Someone who is 10x stronger will beat someone with more difficulty than someone that is 100x stronger. It's just common sense, not intrinsic battle power gap logic. Obviously you know this, but I'm just saying. If the difference between Base Goku and SS3 Goku is 10, then SS3 and God will be like a 50.

If I'm misunderstanding your point, feel free to correct we.

The image training alone presents Goku as vastly superior to his Boo Arc self prior to Whis' training and the manga makes it apparent he's far from hitting his limit (particularly with his and Vegeta's training gains in the Moro Arc). Wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the idea of him being below the likes of, say, BoG SSJ Vegetto though considering how subjective gaps concerning Ki are, though it's evident he's still far above his Boo Arc self in equal forms at least, something further evidenced by Goku considering a guy who could beat a SS3 tier Trunks as not something to take too lightly.

The power of Z Goku wasn't really relevant to what I was saying. My point is that if by your logic Cell could be 2% of Blue and there wouldn't be an inconsistency since small differences in battle power means huge differences.

Wouldn't say any of this suggests a retcon, since being around 10% of one's Ki can potentially mean being vastly below that in stats for reasons already mentioned. Hit definitely didn't seem to be fooling around compared to his fight with Vegeta either, considering him bringing out his hands and taking a stance is treat like an increase in scale overall.

It's actually the opposite. Hit hiding his hands allows him to mask his movements before a timeskip, making it more difficult for Goku to predict them. He was essentially humoring Goku's assertion that he can't fight without them.

 

[Dagon]

Can you give me a good reason for why he should be?

Don’t redirect the question man. Of course I can’t, but that’s besides the point. I’m trying to see if my fan made numbers can work, not if they’re facts.

On a technical level you could place base Broly that high but I don't think there's enough narrative support for it. At that point it is guesswork. I mean, Broly's Ikari state being stated as Oozaru in human form should put a ceiling on how high the power levels go. If Broly's base power was 500x SSJ3 Goku already then making a big deal about a further 10x increase seems superfluous. The 10x increase should be the thing that sets Broly apart from the heroes at that point. It works best that way when you consider the narrative.

And then there's the fact that base and SSJ Goku fought Ikari Broly and wasn't turned to ash immediately, which becomes less and less believable the bigger the gap you give to Ikari Broly & SSJG form.

The main point of the argument is that Goku bothers to mention that as a SSj God he'll be completely different than he was previously but doesn't really make note of that as a SSj3 after going through all of his forms. This indicates that SSjG-SSj3 > SSj3-Base. This is entirely separate from gap logic.

That's one hell of a reach if I ever saw one. In DB a 33% gap let Vegeta one-shot Cui. Goku was impressed by Vegeta going from 16k to 18k, a 12.5% gap. "A whole other level" in DB just means "more than before" as we've clearly seen small gaps get treated as death sentences for the weaker guy.

I still don't get how you come to that conclusion. The chapter said nothing about the relative gaps between forms. It really seems like you're inserting something that's not originally present.

Now look, if you think SSJG is the coolest form, that's cool and all, but that doesn't mean you have to wank it from favoritism.

SSJ Goku (~Z) isn't 10% of Blue either?

This is not taking account Joe's shitty guidebooks, right?

You don't have to like the facts, but you should accept them.
Han shot second, and no amount of complaints can change that. Same thing.
Validity and subjective quality are not equatable. You can go ahead and dislike the facts but that does not invalidate them.

 

[Dagon]

EDIT: Mod delete this post.

 

[GSM123]

I’ve created a new forum meme.

Nah, we’re only trying to bait you into asking who’s Joe.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

When we discuss things like percentages, then it's impossible for there not to be a consistent scale. The difference between 20% and 10% is smaller than the difference between 30% and 90%. Someone who is 10x stronger will beat someone with more difficulty than someone that is 100x stronger. It's just common sense, not intrinsic battle power gap logic. Obviously you know this, but I'm just saying. If the difference between Base Goku and SS3 Goku is 10, then SS3 and God will be like a 50.

If I'm misunderstanding your point, feel free to correct we.

What I'm saying is that when it comes to DB, most statements on percentages revolve around one's Ki/battle power (eg. Freeza's numerous percentages). Going back to the Daimao - BoZ Piccolo comparison, going from destroying cities to blowing up moons is obviously a greater difference than that between Piccolo and Raditz, yet the battle power system treats the latter as far larger. In other words, the way Ki is measured treats someone who shouldn't even measure at up to 1% of one's power as being over 50%, whereas treating someone several times' their Ki as not being of vastly greater difference. When battle powers are measurements of Ki and agreeing to the idea of battle power gaps being inconsistent, it's difficult not to bring up the possibility of treating the situation of gaps in tiers and gaps in battle power percentages as essentially apples and oranges.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] somewhere in Early Z Ki becomes the main point of reference and is even a synonym with “power” and “strength” in most cases though.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yes, hence why I have no problem with that being used to refer to percentages of a character. My point though is that these measurements are still far different from standard energy values that would make it apparent some small battle power gaps are actually gigantic by irl standards and vice versa. It's not as though the series completely ignores this either, considering Piccolo's statement about 100 Roshis, Tenshinhans or Kamis still being no match to his fatigued state despite us later learning Tenshinhan and Kami would have over half his full power self's Ki at the time. That said, even if the difference in tiers between SS3 and SSG was greater than that between Base and SS3 (just like how the difference between Tenshinhan, etc. and Piccolo at the 23rd TB is treat as far greater than that between BoZ Piccolo and Raditz), that's not to say this should automatically be the case for the difference in battle power.

 

[Future Warrior]

When battle powers are measurements of Ki and agreeing to the idea of battle power gaps being inconsistent, it's difficult not to bring up the possibility of treating the situation of gaps in tiers and gaps in battle power percentages as essentially apples and oranges.

This is probably why we are at a disagreement. I was never thinking in terms of the numbers that would appear on a scouter. That's a concept that's used by the Freeza force, not the Zetto Senshi. Scouters detect Ki amount, but that doesn't mean the way they measure things is the same way someone knowing their own Ki and sensing it would calculate it.

We don't even know the scouter numbers for pre-Z era. Goku gets many times stronger throughout that timespan. Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power was humiliating that same Goku. This is still referring to Ki, because Ki as a means of enhancement has been used since at least the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

I agree that Toriyama's view of scouter numbers is too just put a random higher number to demonstrate the scale. Hell, there's no reason to assume that scouter numbers are differentiated the same way we use numbers. For example, a difference of 1000 and 2000 might be less or more than just doubling your power (I don't care for the Daizenshuu).

I guess my point is when somebody is saying they are using a percentage of their power, that doesn't mean they are thinking in battle power terms. 10% is just simply 10%, nothing more nothing else. What you're essentially saying is that 10% isn't really 1/10, which is a bit strange.

 

[Future Warrior]

Now look, if you think SSJG is the coolest form, that's cool and all, but that doesn't mean you have to wank it from favoritism.

I'm not going to have a proper discussion with you if you're going to make condescending remarks like this.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

This is probably why we are at a disagreement. I was never thinking in terms of the numbers that would appear on a scouter. That's a concept that's used by the Freeza force, not the Zetto Senshi. Scouters detect Ki amount, but that doesn't mean the way they measure things is the same way someone knowing their own Ki and sensing it would calculate it.

The thing is, Ki and battle power are treat as interchangeable, such as Cell Arc Vegeta still using the latter term to refer to the strength of characters despite having long since abandoned scouters in favour of the Dragon Team's Ki sensing approach. Therefore, when a character refers to 10% of their Ki, there's no need to believe it isn't in reference to battle power with how interchangeable the terms are (unless assuming Whis goes by a completely different system like Kiri).

We don't even know the scouter numbers for pre-Z era. Goku gets many times stronger throughout that timespan. Piccolo Daimao using less than half of his power was humiliating that same Goku. This is still referring to Ki, because Ki as a means of enhancement has been used since at least the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

I'd contest the idea of these terms referring to the amount of Ki. Yes, Ki was used since the start of the series, but its use prior to the 23rd TB was very basic compared to what we'd later see such as Goku's uses of Ki purely coming from his Kamehameha during the early arcs. Most of the early training also focused primarily on physical aspects rather than balancing them out with spiritual training like with Popo or Kaio, so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume these statements were more focused on physical attributes rather than the size of one's Ki.

 

[Future Warrior]

The thing is, Ki and battle power are treat as interchangeable, such as Cell Arc Vegeta still using the latter term to refer to the strength of characters despite having long since abandoned scouters in favour of the Dragon Team's Ki sensing approach. Therefore, when a character refers to 10% of their Ki, there's no need to believe it isn't in reference to battle power with how interchangeable the terms are (unless assuming Whis goes by a completely different system like Kiri).

Why would Vegeta be a good argument? He's been in the Freeza force for 30 years. Of course he would still use that term, and the only person who does it at that.

I'd contest the idea of these terms referring to the amount of Ki. Yes, Ki was used since the start of the series, but its use prior to the 23rd TB was very basic compared to what we'd later see such as Goku's uses of Ki purely coming from his Kamehameha during the early arcs. Most of the early training also focused primarily on physical aspects rather than balancing them out with spiritual training like with Popo or Kaio, so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume these statements were more focused on physical attributes rather than the size of one's Ki.

Absolutely not.

Spoiler

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/13/135592/2995896-3026720799-30330.gif

Spoiler

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/4267579-j2.jpg

The physical limits of a human body can't jump hundreds of feet in the air, move so fast that it looks like you have multiple arms, and great a gust of wind that can send a man flying with a simply hand movement. This is all influenced by Ki.

Pamputto is probably the extent of what a human can achieve without it.