SSJG vs SSJ3

[Captain Cadaver]

Why would Vegeta be a good argument? He's been in the Freeza force for 30 years. Of course he would still use that term, and the only person who does it at that.

If anything, Vegeta's history helps support the idea of Ki and battle power measurement being interchangeable. Having years to familiarise himself in both stances, he'd obviously be the first to make note if there was any difference between the amount of one's Ki and their battle power.

The physical limits of a human body can't jump hundreds of feet in the air, move so fast that it looks like you have multiple arms, and great a gust of wind that can send a man flying with a simply hand movement. This is all influenced by Ki.

Pamputto is probably the extent of what a human can achieve without it.

I'm not saying that Ki is completely removed from their feats, but it's apparent that it's not as vital of a component as it would be in Z through its more basic usage with there being few cases of them amplifying it to extents similar to their Z selves and presenting auras not really being a thing until around the tail end of the Piccolo Daimao Arc. On the subject of that arc's conclusion, Popo makes this quite apparent with how Goku has a poor handling of his great power and is therefore weak in spirit and skill by the former's standard.

Spoiler

 

[Dagon]

Now look, if you think SSJG is the coolest form, that's cool and all, but that doesn't mean you have to wank it from favoritism.

I'm not going to have a proper discussion with you if you're going to make condescending remarks like this.

But am I wrong though?
You're not going to get everything you want out of life. Sometimes people are going to be snarky.
You chill now or are you still...

...?

@Captain Cadaver somewhere in Early Z Ki becomes the main point of reference and is even a synonym with “power” and “strength” in most cases though.

Power and Ki are labeled as different attributes in guidebooks.

The SEG labels Ki and Power as separate things.

In this picture, four attributes are listed from top to bottom: Power, speed, stamina, and ki.

Spoiler

If I had to guess what this means, perhaps Ki is like gasoline, simply the energy source, and power is like horsepower; how well that Ki/energy is turned into force or damage.

 

[Future Warrior]

But am I wrong though?
You're not going to get everything you want out of life. Sometimes people are going to be snarky.
You chill now or are you still...

...?

Not mad at all. It's just obvious that there isn't a point in having a debate if you dismiss my entire argument under the basis that I have some ulterior motive for my stance. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that it was just a random snarky comment, but I'd question what even the point of that was.

If anything, Vegeta's history helps support the idea of Ki and battle power measurement being interchangeable. Having years to familiarise himself in both stances, he'd obviously be the first to make note if there was any difference between the amount of one's Ki and their battle power.

Well yeah, I've already agreed scouters are a measurement of Ki. Just like Kiri used by Babidi is also a measurement of Ki. The earthlings don't use those measurements.

I'm not saying that Ki is completely removed from their feats, but it's apparent that it's not as vital of a component as it would be in Z through its more basic usage with there being few cases of them amplifying it to extents similar to their Z selves and presenting auras not really being a thing until around the tail end of the Piccolo Daimao Arc. On the subject of that arc's conclusion, Popo makes this quite apparent with how Goku has a poor handling of his great power and is therefore weak in spirit and skill by the former's standard.

Spoiler

Well you said ''purely'' through energy attacks and such, so it's understandable that I'd make that assumption. As for you point, Popo is saying he doesn't know how to use Ki to it's full extent. Using Ki as a means of powering up the body is a basic skill. Even all of the Freeza force members know how to do it.

 

[GSM123]

Yes, hence why I have no problem with that being used to refer to percentages of a character. My point though is that these measurements are still far different from standard energy values that would make it apparent some small battle power gaps are actually gigantic by irl standards and vice versa. It's not as though the series completely ignores this either, considering Piccolo's statement about 100 Roshis, Tenshinhans or Kamis still being no match to his fatigued state despite us later learning Tenshinhan and Kami would have over half his full power self's Ki at the time. That said, even if the difference in tiers between SS3 and SSG was greater than that between Base and SS3 (just like how the difference between Tenshinhan, etc. and Piccolo at the 23rd TB is treat as far greater than that between BoZ Piccolo and Raditz), that's not to say this should automatically be the case for the difference in battle power.

The way you're speaking it sounds like you're trying to say there's no vice versa though. If Base-SS3 is a 10x power up and SSJ3-God is a 2x power up, then logically Base-SSJ3 is going to be a much larger increase in energy, regardless of whether or not it's really 10x.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Yes, hence why I have no problem with that being used to refer to percentages of a character. My point though is that these measurements are still far different from standard energy values that would make it apparent some small battle power gaps are actually gigantic by irl standards and vice versa. It's not as though the series completely ignores this either, considering Piccolo's statement about 100 Roshis, Tenshinhans or Kamis still being no match to his fatigued state despite us later learning Tenshinhan and Kami would have over half his full power self's Ki at the time. That said, even if the difference in tiers between SS3 and SSG was greater than that between Base and SS3 (just like how the difference between Tenshinhan, etc. and Piccolo at the 23rd TB is treat as far greater than that between BoZ Piccolo and Raditz), that's not to say this should automatically be the case for the difference in battle power.

The way you're speaking it sounds like you're trying to say there's no vice versa though. If Base-SS3 is a 10x power up and SSJ3-God is a 2x power up, then logically Base-SSJ3 is going to be a much larger increase in energy, regardless of whether or not it's really 10x.

Beerus implied in the anime that SSJ3 had a greater powerup than SSJ1 and SSJ2, so make of that as you will.

Also:

Spoiler

 

[Dagon]

Not mad at all. It's just obvious that there isn't a point in having a debate if you dismiss my entire argument under the basis that I have some ulterior motive for my stance. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that it was just a random snarky comment, but I'd question what even the point of that was.

I'm not dismissing your argument. I responded to your points after, all. If you are willing to respond to what I responded to, I'm willing to continue the discussion. I'll even leave out the snark.

 

[Future Warrior]

Not mad at all. It's just obvious that there isn't a point in having a debate if you dismiss my entire argument under the basis that I have some ulterior motive for my stance. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that it was just a random snarky comment, but I'd question what even the point of that was.

I'm not dismissing your argument. I responded to your points after, all. If you are willing to respond to what I responded to, I'm willing to continue the discussion. I'll even leave out the snark.

It's not the snark. It's just that it doesn't really invite people to have a discussion with you if the opposition belittles your argument by assuming you have some hidden agenda (in this case, favoritism for SSj God, which isn't even remotely true). Even calling me an idiot or retard would have me more inclined to continue the debate.

Regardless, I don't see a point in continuing. Your mind is set in stone for a 50x SSj boost, I'm don't. All I have to say is even if that's the case, I don't see why that necessarily has to carry over to SSj Blue.

 

[Dagon]

It's not the snark. It's just that it doesn't really invite people to have a discussion with you if the opposition belittles your argument by assuming you have some hidden agenda (in this case, favoritism for SSj God, which isn't even remotely true). Even calling me an idiot or retard would have me more inclined to continue the debate.

Dude I straight-up said I'm willing to continue. What do you want me to do, go on an apology tour around the U.S.?

Regardless, I don't see a point in continuing. Your mind is set in stone for a 50x SSj boost, I'm don't. All I have to say is even if that's the case, I don't see why that necessarily has to carry over to SSj Blue.

If anything your statement is more indicative of your own biases because you are unwilling to continue speaking to me because of your own unwavering beliefs.

If you are going to dismiss the official multipliers then you are favoring headcanon, i.e. subjective opinion. Whereas I don't need to use rhetoric to defend my position as I can point to the facts as given in official material like the guidebooks.

You've made it clear you are the one stonewalling here. And for what? Bruised ego? That's weak.

 

[Future Warrior]

There’s no point in continuing my guy. You’re free to use Joe’s precious multipliers as much as you want. You pretty much proved my point, the Daizenshuu is above everything to you.

Jesus, I question to think anybody would think somebody would be biased for a recolored transformation from a children’s comic book. That says a lot more about you than me.

 

[Dagon]

There’s no point in continuing my guy. You’re free to use Joe’s precious multipliers as much as you want. You pretty much proved my point, the Daizenshuu is above everything to you.

Jesus, I question to think anybody would think somebody would be biased for a recolored transformation from a children’s comic book. That says a lot more about you than me.

Dude the guidebooks exist for a reason; to guide you. If your opinion goes against the guidebooks then that's headcanon, plain and simple.