SSJR Black (Scythe) vs Hit

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Black may be stronger than me from U6 but not now.

 

[Animelover5487]

To be fair most of Goku and Vegeta's recent rapid gains seem to be from Zenkais and rage boosts rather than training.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Trunks is the weirdest one.

 

[Event Horizon]

Goku still overpowered Hit, and as far as I know, Goku wasn't able to overpower SSJR Black. So as far as raw power goes, Black is ahead. However, Hit is more than capable of winning if he goes straight for the kill, like he did with Goku.

 

[xenos5]

Goku still overpowered Hit, and as far as I know, Goku wasn't able to overpower SSJR Black. So as far as raw power goes, Black is ahead. However, Hit is more than capable of winning if he goes straight for the kill, like he did with Goku.

SSB Vegeta overpowered SSJR Black. The rage boost SSJR Black got after that is unquantifiable since Black mostly applied it to his new ability rather than raw power (and we see for a frame Vegeta still being able to clash with Black's energy scythe so at best you could say Black caught up with Vegeta). Vegeta should've surpassed Black again with the zenkais he got during the fusion Zamasu fight . And Goku should've caught up with Vegeta with the zenkais he got from that fight (and being killed by Hit and coming back).

Goku didn't really overpower Hit. It took all of his energy to destroy the pocket dimension which resulted in the fight being a draw. It's more like he equaled Hit. Hit is definitely on par with or above Goku considering how he knocked Goku from SSB back into base with just one physical strike rather than his hax intangible/invisible shockwave attack.

So Hit>=Current SSB Goku=Current SSB Vegeta>SSJR Black.

 

[Event Horizon]

Nowhere is it stated, and nothing implies that they've gotten a power boost, that's just a baseless assumption.

I still go with manga Whis' explanation of Hit's time-skip ability. It only works against foes who are equal to, or weaker than himself. Him breaking it = him being stronger.

 

[xenos5]

Nowhere is it stated, and nothing implies that they've gotten a power boost, that's just a baseless assumption.

Nowhere is it stated Black surpassed Vegeta or even caught up to him with the rage boost. All we see is Vegeta dodging one of Black's energy slashes, blocking Black's energy scythe for a frame (which wouldn't be possible if Black surpassed him by a huge amount), and Black just delaying Goku and Vegeta with regenerating multiplying clones. Throughout the entire arc we were shown how Zenkai boosts are not gone like we thought they were after SPC. Both Goku and Vegeta were massively injured by Fusion Zamasu (Vegeta jumped in front of Trunks to save him from an attack and Goku had both of his arms broken) and then got senzu beans to heal those injuries which should've given them a pretty big zenkai boost (on par with or above Black's unquantifiable rage boost. And considering Vegeta was above Black powerwise before Black's rage boost and still possibly above or on par with Black after it he'd definitely be above Black again after it. Goku should've caught up with Vegeta with the zenkai as well. And even if he didn't catch up to Vegeta with that zenkai the zenkai he got from coming back from his heart being stopped should definitely have allowed him to become even with current SSB Vegeta).

I still go with manga Whis' explanation of Hit's time-skip ability. It only works against foes who are equal to, or weaker than himself. Him breaking it = him being stronger.

Manga is non canon. And Hit froze SSBKKx10 Goku by improving his time skip (and judging from Vados's explanation of Hit storing time i'd say Hit stores the time of everyone and everything around him when he timeskips which gives it the effect of a timestop and he personally stored Goku's time when he touched him and that's what froze him in time). While post improvement U6 arc Hit can take a punch from SSBKKx10 Goku (so he isn't far off from him in power) considering it took Hit a barrage of punches in a timeskip to almost knock Goku out of KK and match SSBKKx10 Goku's one punch that sent Hit hurtling towards the wall i'd say Hit is less powerful than that version of Goku

And even disregarding that current SSB Goku isn't stronger than current Hit. Hit knocking Goku out of SSB with a single physical strike and it taking Goku not some of his power but every single bit of his power to destroy Hit's pocket dimension is proof enough of that.

 

[Animelover5487]

Nowhere is it stated, and nothing implies that they've gotten a power boost, that's just a baseless assumption.

Nowhere is it stated Black surpassed Vegeta or even caught up to him with the rage boost. All we see is Vegeta dodging one of Black's energy slashes, blocking Black's energy scythe for a frame (which wouldn't be possible if Black surpassed him by a huge amount), and Black just delaying Goku and Vegeta with regenerating multiplying clones. Throughout the entire arc we were shown how Zenkai boosts are not gone like we thought they were after SPC. Both Goku and Vegeta were massively injured by Fusion Zamasu (Vegeta jumped in front of Trunks to save him from an attack and Goku had both of his arms broken) and then got senzu beans to heal those injuries which should've given them a pretty big zenkai boost (on par with or above Black's unquantifiable rage boost. And considering Vegeta was above Black powerwise before Black's rage boost and still possibly above or on par with Black after it he'd definitely be above Black again after it. Goku should've caught up with Vegeta with the zenkai as well. And even if he didn't catch up to Vegeta with that zenkai the zenkai he got from coming back from his heart being stopped should definitely have allowed him to become even with current SSB Vegeta).

I still go with manga Whis' explanation of Hit's time-skip ability. It only works against foes who are equal to, or weaker than himself. Him breaking it = him being stronger.

Manga is non canon. And Hit froze SSBKKx10 Goku by improving his time skip (and judging from Vados's explanation of Hit storing time i'd say Hit stores the time of everyone and everything around him when he timeskips which gives it the effect of a timestop and he personally stored Goku's time when he touched him and that's what froze him in time). While post improvement U6 arc Hit can take a punch from SSBKKx10 Goku (so he isn't far off from him in power) considering it took Hit a barrage of punches in a timeskip to almost knock Goku out of KK and match SSBKKx10 Goku's one punch that sent Hit hurtling towards the wall i'd say Hit is less powerful than that version of Goku

And even disregarding that current SSB Goku isn't stronger than current Hit. Hit knocking Goku out of SSB with a single physical strike and it taking Goku not some of his power but every single bit of his power to destroy Hit's pocket dimension is proof enough of that.

Black tried to make Goku and Vegeta angry by sending Future Zamasu after Trunks, Mai and Bulma, and was completely confident in fighting their rage boosted power that would imply that he was much stronger than them. Also Toriyama stated in an interview that aside from Beerus, Black was the strongest non-fused character. I do agree that Goku and Vegeta could have surpassed Black after their Zenkais from the Merged Zamasu battle though.

 

[xenos5]

Black tried to make Goku and Vegeta angry by sending Future Zamasu after Trunks, Mai and Bulma, and was completely confident in fighting their rage boosted power that would imply that he was much stronger than them.

It was more the saiyan instinct in him that lead him to wanting to make them stronger. We saw for a frame Vegeta blocking Black's energy scythe before it could produce an energy slash that would create another rift and that wouldn't be possible if Vegeta was far below Black. Previously they weren't able to block attacks from Black's energy sword in it's basic form. But after his training Vegeta could physically counter it. So for Vegeta to be able to still be able to block slashes even after Black's rage boost (and easily dodge the energy slashes that come from the scythe) he can't be far below Black.

Also Toriyama stated in an interview that aside from Beerus, Black was the strongest non-fused character.

I don't think it was Toriyama who said that. To my recollection it was just some producer giving their opinion.

I do agree that Goku and Vegeta could have surpassed Black after their Zenkais from the Merged Zamasu battle though.

Alright.

 

[Event Horizon]

Please, show me proof (statements, feats) that Goku and Vegeta received zenkai boosts during the FT arc. You're just spouting baseless nonsense. "After that, they got a zenkai boost" Based on what?
Nothing suggest them getting zenkai boosts, you're just assuming they are based on nothing. SSJR Black almost killed Vegeta in their first fight, yet Vegeta didn't get stronger "after coming back". There's no statement saying he got stronger, and he lost just as bad the second time fighting. Both statement-wise and feat-wise, Goku and Vegeta never got stronger during the FT arc from zenkais. The only statement about power increase is after Vegeta trained in the RoSaT. Before that, they were beaten half to death, came back, and were beaten half to death again, until Vegeta TRAINED to surpass Black.

SSJ Blue Goku overpowered Hit's Time-Skip = him being stronger. Hit isn't a power-focused character, he's all about deadly techniques. Goku even mocked Hit, saying Time-Skip wouldn't work on him. And even in the anime, Time-Skip doesn't work on beings who exert a higher power level than the user himself.

You're right though, it wasn't Toriyama. The producer of Dragon Ball Super stated that (in his opinion), Goku Black is the strongest character (Beerus and above excluded).

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Then why was Goku's Kamehameha as strong as Vegeta and Trunks's Father-Son Galick Gun?

 

[Event Horizon]

That can easily be explained - Goku's God Kamehameha just has an insane amp, much more so than the Galick Gun. No indication of a zenkai, especially since a few moments earlier, Vegeta (post-RoSaT) stated that he had surpassed Goku and the latter never disagreed.

 

[Void]

The show also treats Goku like he's stronger though, everything after episode 63 is all fuckey.

Hit wins the fight, IMO. I don't see how Black is going to counter his killing air punch thing, I still don't understand how Goku did.

 

[SIAD]

I get the feeling that Goku increases his power by training the Mafuba because of his fight against Future Zamasu, but anyway Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat) was >>> Goku SSJB (Post Mafuba). Then in chapter 66 when the Goku uses the Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu, Future Trunks says that Goku became stronger.

Apparently Goku became stronger in the end of chapter 65 and managed to overcome Vegeta.

I do not think Goku Black SSJR (Scythe) is any more powerful than Goku Black SSJR (Post Future Trunks).

Since the Black Bow have been a few months, therefore I think that Goku and Vegeta have increased their powers and possibly Vegeta this reaching back to Goku in terms of power.

 

[Animelover5487]

I get the feeling that Goku increases his power by training the Mafuba because of his fight against Future Zamasu, but anyway Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat) was >>> Goku SSJB (Post Mafuba). Then in chapter 66 when the Goku uses the Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu, Future Trunks says that Goku became stronger.

Apparently Goku became stronger in the end of chapter 65 and managed to overcome Vegeta.

I do not think Goku Black SSJR (Scythe) is any more powerful than Goku Black SSJR (Post Future Trunks).

Since the Black Bow have been a few months, therefore I think that Goku and Vegeta have increased their powers and possibly Vegeta this reaching back to Goku in terms of power.

I don't think learning the Mafuba made Goku any stronger. I think Goku just got a massive Zenkai from his near death at Black's hands during their last trip that put him over SSJB Vegeta (Post ROSAT). I also stand by my stance that Black got a rage boost after forming the scythe, there is no reason for Black to be so confident in taking on a rage boosted Goku and Vegeta if he wasn't stronger and I think that producer's opinion Black being the strongest aside from Beerus is valid. For me it goes:

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

But yeah, Hit does stomp Black.

 

[SIAD]

I get the feeling that Goku increases his power by training the Mafuba because of his fight against Future Zamasu, but anyway Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat) was >>> Goku SSJB (Post Mafuba). Then in chapter 66 when the Goku uses the Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu, Future Trunks says that Goku became stronger.

Apparently Goku became stronger in the end of chapter 65 and managed to overcome Vegeta.

I do not think Goku Black SSJR (Scythe) is any more powerful than Goku Black SSJR (Post Future Trunks).

Since the Black Bow have been a few months, therefore I think that Goku and Vegeta have increased their powers and possibly Vegeta this reaching back to Goku in terms of power.

I don't think learning the Mafuba made Goku any stronger. I think Goku just got a massive Zenkai from his near death at Black's hands during their last trip that put him over SSJB Vegeta (Post ROSAT). I also stand by my stance that Black got a rage boost after forming the scythe, there is no reason for Black to be so confident in taking on a rage boosted Goku and Vegeta if he wasn't stronger and I think that producer's opinion Black being the strongest aside from Beerus is valid. For me it goes:

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

But yeah, Hit does stomp Black.

Anyway I have Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat)> Goku Black SSJR (Scythe, Rage Boost), since this last one thought that the only way to defeat the Saiyajins was Fusing with Future Zamasu.

Why do you have SSJB Goku (Third Trip)> SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip)? We were given to understand that Vegeta at that time was much more powerful than Goku. In Chapter 63 of DBS.

I actually have Goku Black SSJR (Debut)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament), because Zamasu saw the Universal Tournament and even so, Goku Black when he first became SSJR, he felt invincible and even said that Goku He would never reach that level of fighting.

 

[Animelover5487]

I get the feeling that Goku increases his power by training the Mafuba because of his fight against Future Zamasu, but anyway Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat) was >>> Goku SSJB (Post Mafuba). Then in chapter 66 when the Goku uses the Kamehameha against Merged Zamasu, Future Trunks says that Goku became stronger.

Apparently Goku became stronger in the end of chapter 65 and managed to overcome Vegeta.

I do not think Goku Black SSJR (Scythe) is any more powerful than Goku Black SSJR (Post Future Trunks).

Since the Black Bow have been a few months, therefore I think that Goku and Vegeta have increased their powers and possibly Vegeta this reaching back to Goku in terms of power.

I don't think learning the Mafuba made Goku any stronger. I think Goku just got a massive Zenkai from his near death at Black's hands during their last trip that put him over SSJB Vegeta (Post ROSAT). I also stand by my stance that Black got a rage boost after forming the scythe, there is no reason for Black to be so confident in taking on a rage boosted Goku and Vegeta if he wasn't stronger and I think that producer's opinion Black being the strongest aside from Beerus is valid. For me it goes:

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

But yeah, Hit does stomp Black.

Anyway I have Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat)> Goku Black SSJR (Scythe, Rage Boost), since this last one thought that the only way to defeat the Saiyajins was Fusing with Future Zamasu.

Why do you have SSJB Goku (Third Trip)> SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip)? We were given to understand that Vegeta at that time was much more powerful than Goku. In Chapter 63 of DBS.

I actually have Goku Black SSJR (Debut)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament), because Zamasu saw the Universal Tournament and even so, Goku Black when he first became SSJR, he felt invincible and even said that Goku He would never reach that level of fighting.

Black didn't need to fuse he just did because they had a technique that could defeat them (Mafuba) and Future Zamasu didn't want to take any chances. Goku overpowered Merged Zamasu's blast while it took both Vegeta and Trunks to deflect it and even then that didn't do any damage.

Zamasu didn't see the whole U6 vs U7 tournament, only part of Goku vs Hit.

 

[xenos5]

Please, show me proof (statements, feats) that Goku and Vegeta received zenkai boosts during the FT arc. You're just spouting baseless nonsense. "After that, they got a zenkai boost" Based on what?
Nothing suggest them getting zenkai boosts, you're just assuming they are based on nothing. SSJR Black almost killed Vegeta in their first fight, yet Vegeta didn't get stronger "after coming back". There's no statement saying he got stronger, and he lost just as bad the second time fighting. Both statement-wise and feat-wise, Goku and Vegeta never got stronger during the FT arc from zenkais. The only statement about power increase is after Vegeta trained in the RoSaT. Before that, they were beaten half to death, came back, and were beaten half to death again, until Vegeta TRAINED to surpass Black.

The function of Zenkai is that you get a large power boost after coming back from great injury or a near death experience. Goku and Vegeta were greatly injured by Fusion Zamasu they took senzu beans and were then greatly injured again when they defused. They had to have gotten at least 2 zenkais each against Fusion Zamasu (and Goku got another one against Hit). Zenkai boosts don't have to be stated for them to have obviously happened.

SSJ Blue Goku overpowered Hit's Time-Skip = him being stronger. Hit isn't a power-focused character, he's all about deadly techniques. Goku even mocked Hit, saying Time-Skip wouldn't work on him. And even in the anime, Time-Skip doesn't work on beings who exert a higher power level than the user himself.

Are you talking about SSB Goku breaking through the pocket dimension? That took every bit of his energy so it's more accurate to say they equaled and nullified eachother. And on top of that Hit got up first after the fight ended in a tie so he was clearly less damaged than Goku.

If Hit's timeskip wouldn't work on stronger beings than his improvements shouldn't have allowed him to time steal/time store from U6 arc SSBKKx10 Goku freezing him in place as he clearly wasn't exactly as strong as that version of Goku at that point (though current Hit and current SSB Goku should be above that Goku by this point). Hit also did his timeskip on SSBKKx10 Goku again after the time freeze and didn't even have to time steal/time store and time freeze Goku because of his new stance and improvements.

You're right though, it wasn't Toriyama. The producer of Dragon Ball Super stated that (in his opinion), Goku Black is the strongest character (Beerus and above excluded).

Yup.

 

[SIAD]

I don't think learning the Mafuba made Goku any stronger. I think Goku just got a massive Zenkai from his near death at Black's hands during their last trip that put him over SSJB Vegeta (Post ROSAT). I also stand by my stance that Black got a rage boost after forming the scythe, there is no reason for Black to be so confident in taking on a rage boosted Goku and Vegeta if he wasn't stronger and I think that producer's opinion Black being the strongest aside from Beerus is valid. For me it goes:

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

But yeah, Hit does stomp Black.

Anyway I have Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat)> Goku Black SSJR (Scythe, Rage Boost), since this last one thought that the only way to defeat the Saiyajins was Fusing with Future Zamasu.

Why do you have SSJB Goku (Third Trip)> SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip)? We were given to understand that Vegeta at that time was much more powerful than Goku. In Chapter 63 of DBS.

I actually have Goku Black SSJR (Debut)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament), because Zamasu saw the Universal Tournament and even so, Goku Black when he first became SSJR, he felt invincible and even said that Goku He would never reach that level of fighting.

Black didn't need to fuse he just did because they had a technique that could defeat them (Mafuba) and Future Zamasu didn't want to take any chances. Goku overpowered Merged Zamasu's blast while it took both Vegeta and Trunks to deflect it and even then that didn't do any damage.

Zamasu didn't see the whole U6 vs U7 tournament, only part of Goku vs Hit.

Or possibly also Vegeta SSJB + Goku SSJB> Goku Black SSJR (Final) + Future Zamasu.

I'm sure Vegeta was more powerful than Goku, until in the fight against Merged Zamasu in chapter 65, Goku gets a great increase of power at the end of the Episode, that's when Goku launches his Kamehameha. Then at the beginning of Episode 66, Future Trunks and Vegeta recognize that Goku has become stronger.

Hear out there that the claim that Goku Black was stronger than all to Beerus's obeisation, at the time that Goku Black SSJR, was overtaken by Goku SSJB (Enraged). Goku Black has all these lights on:

Goku Black SSJR (Debut)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Combat Saiyajins)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Goku Enraged)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Future Trunks)
Goku Black SSJR (Final)

A if the claim is that Goku Black SSJR (Post Combat Saiyajins)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament).

Anyway I would not be surprised that even Goku Black SSJR (Debut)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament), because Goku Black thought that Goku would never achieve that power, therefore: Goku Black SSJR (Debut) >>> >>>>>>> Goku SSJB (Universal Tournament).

With all that I told you, what do you think of a match between Goku Black SSJR (Debut) vs. Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament)?

 

[Event Horizon]

Please, show me proof (statements, feats) that Goku and Vegeta received zenkai boosts during the FT arc. You're just spouting baseless nonsense. "After that, they got a zenkai boost" Based on what?
Nothing suggest them getting zenkai boosts, you're just assuming they are based on nothing. SSJR Black almost killed Vegeta in their first fight, yet Vegeta didn't get stronger "after coming back". There's no statement saying he got stronger, and he lost just as bad the second time fighting. Both statement-wise and feat-wise, Goku and Vegeta never got stronger during the FT arc from zenkais. The only statement about power increase is after Vegeta trained in the RoSaT. Before that, they were beaten half to death, came back, and were beaten half to death again, until Vegeta TRAINED to surpass Black.

The function of Zenkai is that you get a large power boost after coming back from great injury or a near death experience. Goku and Vegeta were greatly injured by Fusion Zamasu they took senzu beans and were then greatly injured again when they defused. They had to have gotten at least 2 zenkais each against Fusion Zamasu (and Goku got another one against Hit). Zenkai boosts don't have to be stated for them to have obviously happened.

I'm aware of how zenkai boosts work. Logically they would, but they don't have to have gotten it. Zenkai boosts were pretty much abandon post Freeza arc. There must be some proof that they received zenkai boosts, otherwise it's just baseless. There are no statements regarding a power increase after coming back from near death, nor did they do any better fighting Black and Zamasu. Them receiving zenkai boosts isn't supported by neither statements or feats. You're just saying they have to get it because they did way back in the Freeza arc, ignoring that they didn't receive anymore after that.
I'd buy it if there was statements referencing a power increase, or Goku and Vegeta actually doing better against Black and Zamasu. They got beaten, came back, and beaten again just as badly as the first time - something that shouldn't happen had they received a zenkai boost. The only time they did better was after Vegeta had trained in the RoSaT. Even without statements we know Vegeta had increased his power, since he's now beating Black, something he should've done long ago had he received a zenkai boost, but no, he did it first after he TRAINED!