SSJR Black (Scythe) vs Hit

[xmysticgohanx]

Black has a higher pl but Hit's hax is way better

If hit doesn't kill black instantly than black wins due to getting Zenkais mid battle

You forget Hit has improvement to match Black's zenkai. Improvement allowed Hit to surpass SSB Goku, freeze SSBKKx10 Goku in time, and do significant damage to SSBKK Goku. It is just as good or even better than Black's Zenkai.

If Hit improves during ToP then I'll agree with you

 

[Spiral-Force]

Why Goku didn't surpass Black during Hit arc? After all, Goku was having a special training from Whis that Vegeta didn't even knew and found it later.

Goku's special training was focus. It had nothing to do with increasing power. You can see this for yourself in Episode 71.

Vegeta did actually block the scythe. We see it for a frame along with Goku and Zamasu clashing at the same time before both fights are cut away from.

That wasn't a block, that was a punch.

Black relied on anger because he knew Zenkais would not be enough against Vegeta. The difference was just that great.

For all we know, Black's gains from the beating Vegeta gave him could have pushed him to the latter's level, because we never saw Black (post-beating/pre-anger boost) in action. As Vegeta was wrecking Black, Black acknowledged how much stronger Vegeta became, and after the bout, he admitted that he lost, so why would Black lie about becoming the strongest and reaching far greater heights? Vegeta didn't even counter Black's claims, and was in shock when he witnessed what Black could do with his power afterwards.

Hit's pocket dimension isn't timeskip. It's the energy source for his time skip (it contains stored space-time and is the reason he can use timeskip in the world of void during the tournament of power even though time doesn't nomally exist there). And you're neglecting to mention it took a full power SSB Kamehameha from Goku that drained him to nothing just to break that pocket dimension. Do you think it would be viable for Black to drain himself out of SSR to try to do the same thing? Hit doesn't even use transformations, He's SSB level without them, so after taking a kamehameha like that he'd still easily be above Base Black. SSB Goku has never resisted timeskip like SSBKKx10 Goku moved through it. So Black shouldn't be able to either. Heck Goku never used any level of SSBKK against Black during the future trunks arc (likely out of concern for the risk of using it).

Goku shattered the space in which Hit utilises Timeskip, resulting in the stoppage of his Timeskip too. By the way, you forgot to mention how Hit was drained just like Goku after the Kamehameha. Black at his peak wouldn't need to max out to achieve the same feat Goku did because he ought to still be >>> Ep 72 Goku due to how much stronger Black was suggested to be than Goku/Vegeta some episodes before. Once you come to terms with how powerful Black became after he derived power from anger, maybe you'll realise that Black stands a good chance in this hypothetical battle.

Black won't know Hit would even have a technique like intangible/invisible shockwaves to begin with. So he won't be closing his eyes and devoting everything to energy sensing like Goku was doing later to be able to dodge them. So he'd get killed with the first one just like Goku almost did.

Who's to say he'd use his assassination techniques on Black straight away? Hit aimed to kill Goku during their 2nd fight because he was hired to. Even with this mission in mind, Hit gave Goku a chance to leave so that Goku's life would be spared. Against Black, Hit would probably start off with Timeskip attacks as usual.

Or even if he somehow learned to dodge the shockwaves without dying, there would still be ways he could easily surprise Black. For instance remember when Hit used a rift to go into his pocket dimension and then opened a rift to appear behind Goku and slam him into the ground with enough force to knock him out of SSB? There's no way Black could predict that and Hit wouldn't be so kind to wait for Black to go back into SSR like he was with Goku.

As we saw from Vegeta and Black's rematch, Black is capable of recovering from fast and deadly blows dealt by an opponent that exceeds him, and he gets stronger by doing so, so considering Black ought to exceed Ep 72 Goku/Hit by a lot, he should at least be capable of withstanding Hit's initial attacks and preparing for what's next.

Also Black would likely make the same mistake in assuming Hit can't stay in the pocket dimension/be intangible and attack at the same time and Hit could use that opening to attack send a shockwave into Black's heart while Black is attacking his intangible self/projection like how he surprised Goku with a shockwave uppercut as Goku was punching at his projection.

There are so much more ways for Hit to win here than Black as his abilities are more versatile and deadly. Easiest of all Hit could just use timeskip and then put a shockwave into Black's heart while he's frozen. No way to dodge that.

As seen in Episode 64, Black doesn't have a problem with letting his army of clones fight for him. When Hit decides to use his intangibility, Black can use his clones as a decoy to recognise where the physical version of Hit is. As for Hit's Flash Fist attacks, if Ep 72 Goku could dodge a lot of them well, then peak Black should be able to as well since he's logically far greater than this version of Goku. Even if Black happens to be struck in the heart by a Flash Fist, Black is shown to react quickly and effectively in major situations (e.g. destroying Future Trunks' time machine before inevitably getting pulled into the future, to stop Trunks from returning), and has similar combat skill to Goku, so I wouldn't say it'd be jaw-dropping for him to do what Goku did to survive.

 

[xenos5]

Goku's special training was focus. It had nothing to do with increasing power. You can see this for yourself in Episode 71.

Are you saying mental training does not increase power as a side effect? True Golden Frieza is a pretty strong example against that.

That wasn't a block, that was a punch.

And? Are you saying being able to punch Black's energy scythe isn't impressive when Goku or Vegeta couldn't even touch Black's energy blade until Vegeta came back from his hyperbolic time chamber training that strengthened his SSB form? The ki coating Vegeta's fist to allow him to do that must've been >= to the ki used to make the energy scythe. Simple as that.

For all we know, Black's gains from the beating Vegeta gave him could have pushed him to the latter's level, because we never saw Black (post-beating/pre-anger boost) in action. As Vegeta was wrecking Black, Black acknowledged how much stronger Vegeta became, and after the bout, he admitted that he lost, so why would Black lie about becoming the strongest and reaching far greater heights? Vegeta didn't even counter Black's claims, and was in shock when he witnessed what Black could do with his power afterwards.

Black had an entire speech where he mentioned he was angry at himself for getting humiliated by Vegeta. He pretty much admitted his zenkais weren't giving him enough of a boost. He HAD to use the rage boost to give himself special abilities.

Goku shattered the space in which Hit utilises Timeskip, resulting in the stoppage of his Timeskip too. By the way, you forgot to mention how Hit was drained just like Goku after the Kamehameha. Black at his peak wouldn't need to max out to achieve the same feat Goku did because he ought to still be >>> Ep 72 Goku due to how much stronger Black was suggested to be than Goku/Vegeta some episodes before. Once you come to terms with how powerful Black became after he derived power from anger, maybe you'll realise that Black stands a good chance in this hypothetical battle.

All Hit has to do is store more space-time from the immediate area instead of using his pocket dimension if it's destroyed. The pocket dimension was just a very big supply allowing him to use timeskip even in places without space-time to store (like the world of void).

Hit had enough energy to get up shortly afterwards and fly all the way back to universe 6. He didn't come out of that fight in as bad as shape as Goku did.

I disagree that Black is above the Goku that Hit fought. My position won't change on that.

Who's to say he'd use his assassination techniques on Black straight away? Hit aimed to kill Goku during their 2nd fight because he was hired to. Even with this mission in mind, Hit gave Goku a chance to leave so that Goku's life would be spared. Against Black, Hit would probably start off with Timeskip attacks as usual.

And? Hit not immediately using his assassination techniques would not change that Black would be completely unprepared to deal with them whenever Hit did get around to using them. Also I doubt Hit would hesitate to use his assassination techniques for long after seeing Black's evil intent.

As we saw from Vegeta and Black's rematch, Black is capable of recovering from fast and deadly blows dealt by an opponent that exceeds him, and he gets stronger by doing so, so considering Black ought to exceed Ep 72 Goku/Hit by a lot, he should at least be capable of withstanding Hit's initial attacks and preparing for what's next.

How long it take Black to recover can vary. He was down for a minute or more from SSJ Ikari Trunks's galick gun. A blow from Hit that could knock Goku out of SSB could leave Black down for about that long or longer. And Hit would immediately follow it up with a killing blow giving Black no time to recover rather than how he was merciful with Goku.

As seen in Episode 64, Black doesn't have a problem with letting his army of clones fight for him. When Hit decides to use his intangibility, Black can use his clones as a decoy to recognise where the physical version of Hit is.

I don't get exactly what you're trying to say with this.

Hit could easily evade the clones either through timeskipping and going around them or going into a rift into his pocket dimension and opening another rift somewhere else.

As for Hit's Flash Fist attacks, if Ep 72 Goku could dodge a lot of them well, then peak Black should be able to as well since he's logically far greater than this version of Goku. Even if Black happens to be struck in the heart by a Flash Fist, Black is shown to react quickly and effectively in major situations (e.g. destroying Future Trunks' time machine before inevitably getting pulled into the future, to stop Trunks from returning), and has similar combat skill to Goku, so I wouldn't say it'd be jaw-dropping for him to do what Goku did to survive.

I can't agree with you on Black's power in comparison to post future trunks arc SSB Goku. Goku did get zenkais as well during his fight with fusion zamasu and I don't think those should be ignored.

Coming up with the idea of using a ki blast to defibrillate your heart is very specific and I don't think there's evidence one way or the other if he'd be able to come up with that same exact idea while dying as Goku did. And since Hit witnessed Goku doing it before he'd know how to counter the tactic regardless (shoot or physically knock away the ki blast out of the sky so it can't come back down and restart his heart).

 

[Spiral-Force]

Are you saying mental training does not increase power as a side effect? True Golden Frieza is a pretty strong example against that.

Frieza conducted endless battle simulations of killing Goku, so what Frieza did is image training. On the other hand, Goku was just being mindful of his surroundings. Quite different.

And? Are you saying being able to punch Black's energy scythe isn't impressive when Goku or Vegeta couldn't even touch Black's energy blade until Vegeta came back from his hyperbolic time chamber training that strengthened his SSB form? The ki coating Vegeta's fist to allow him to do that must've been >= to the ki used to make the energy scythe. Simple as that.

Black called Vegeta an appetizer after his anger power up, so why would he go full force against someone he thinks little of? Black called Vegeta an appetizer after he wrecked him in their first match too, so Black saying this again indicates that he surpassed Vegeta by a big amount. This is further suggested by how Merged Zamasu rivals Vegito despite one of the fusees [Zamasu] being a weakling in comparison to Goku/Vegeta.

Black had an entire speech where he mentioned he was angry at himself for getting humiliated by Vegeta. He pretty much admitted his zenkais weren't giving him enough of a boost. He HAD to use the rage boost to give himself special abilities.

This doesn't speak volumes about Black's post-beating gains since his embarrassment was based on his performance. You're pretty much downplaying something you never saw in action [post-beating gains/pre-anger boost Goku Black].

All Hit has to do is store more space-time from the immediate area instead of using his pocket dimension if it's destroyed. The pocket dimension was just a very big supply allowing him to use timeskip even in places without space-time to store (like the world of void).

Hit had enough energy to get up shortly afterwards and fly all the way back to universe 6. He didn't come out of that fight in as bad as shape as Goku did.

I disagree that Black is above the Goku that Hit fought. My position won't change on that. I can't agree with you on Black's power in comparison to post future trunks arc SSB Goku. Goku did get zenkais as well during his fight with fusion zamasu and I don't think those should be ignored.

How do you know Goku didn't have enough energy to fly away after the fight? The episode ended before we saw where the gang went next. Hit uses Timeskip within a pocket dimension, but when someone shatters it whilst in use he becomes exposed to harm, as seen by what happened when Goku Kamehameha'd it. Black's final boost dwarfed Goku so much that I doubt any Zenkai Goku might have got would ultimately change the large gap between them. Black should be capable of recreating Goku's feat without as much effort as him.

And? Hit not immediately using his assassination techniques would not change that Black would be completely unprepared to deal with them whenever Hit did get around to using them. Also I doubt Hit would hesitate to use his assassination techniques for long after seeing Black's evil intent.

Hit's Flash Fist technique is visible, so following Black >>> Hit (Ep 72), he should be able to dodge it, or at least survive it then properly prepare for it next time. It only took Goku 3 tries to completely understand how it works and how to properly counter it, and Goku deliberately made it harder for himself to do this by choosing to fight Hit in the woods for some time before coming out into the open.

How long it take Black to recover can vary. He was down for a minute or more from SSJ Ikari Trunks's galick gun. A blow from Hit that could knock Goku out of SSB could leave Black down for about that long or longer. And Hit would immediately follow it up with a killing blow giving Black no time to recover rather than how he was merciful with Goku.

Even if Hit somehow manages to severely injure Black despite the power difference, I wouldn't put it past Black to use his Time Ring or Instant Transmission to escape and recover in a safer environment. Black's quick thinking should be considered here.

I don't get exactly what you're trying to say with this.

Hit could easily evade the clones either through timeskipping and going around them or going into a rift into his pocket dimension and opening another rift somewhere else.

Temporarily making the clones vanish with attacks won't change the fact they will continue to effortlessly reappear and disturb him like they did with Goku and Vegeta. The clones also seem to inherit Black's strength too, judging by how they could damage Goku and Vegeta, so they could be troublesome here.

Coming up with the idea of using a ki blast to defibrillate your heart is very specific and I don't think there's evidence one way or the other if he'd be able to come up with that same exact idea while dying as Goku did. And since Hit witnessed Goku doing it before he'd know how to counter the tactic regardless (shoot or physically knock away the ki blast out of the sky so it can't come back down and restart his heart).

Thinking that Hit would attempt to assassinate Black in the same way and from the distance he tried to with Goku in their second fight is very specific too. When Hit isn't carrying out an instructed assassination task, he becomes a martial artist that enjoys fighting, and he doesn't go out of his way to hide his attacks or only attack from melee range. I think Black would adjust to his fighting style after some time and take him out.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Why Goku didn't surpass Black during Hit arc? After all, Goku was having a special training from Whis that Vegeta didn't even knew and found it later.

Goku's special training was focus. It had nothing to do with increasing power. You can see this for yourself in Episode 71.

Episode: 71
Time: 19:00-19:09
Context: Hit is on Goku's back
Goku: "I didn't think you'd take my back so easily... since I've been trainin' pretty hard all year. I'd expect nothing less, Hit."

That should tell us that Goku is stronger than he was during Black arc.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Episode: 71
Time: 19:00-19:09
Context: Hit is on Goku's back
Goku: "I didn't think you'd take my back so easily... since I've been trainin' pretty hard all year. I'd expect nothing less, Hit."

That should tell us that Goku is stronger than he was during Black arc.

I never denied that Goku got stronger, just making it clear to you that his "special training" wasn't power-related because you seemed to think that it should be a factor for Goku's power. Goku and Hit's 2nd and 3rd fight only take place a few episodes after Merged Zamasu is defeated, so I doubt Goku's training gains from then to his meeting with Hit were big.

 

[xenos5]

Frieza conducted endless battle simulations of killing Goku, so what Frieza did is image training. On the other hand, Goku was just being mindful of his surroundings. Quite different.

Mental training in general increases ki output (since the mind is an aspect of ki). This was shown with how Goku Black increased his ki by using Goku's movements and syncing his mind up better with his new body.

Black called Vegeta an appetizer after his anger power up, so why would he go full force against someone he thinks little of? Black called Vegeta an appetizer after he wrecked him in their first match too, so Black saying this again indicates that he surpassed Vegeta by a big amount. This is further suggested by how Merged Zamasu rivals Vegito despite one of the fusees [Zamasu] being a weakling in comparison to Goku/Vegeta.

I think you're confusing things. Black said something more akin to "i'm ashamed that i've just been humiliated by an appetizer like you" right before the rage boost. I don't think he called Vegeta an appetizer again after the rage boost.

This doesn't speak volumes about Black's post-beating gains since his embarrassment was based on his performance. You're pretty much downplaying something you never saw in action [post-beating gains/pre-anger boost Goku Black].

We saw Vegeta beat the shit out of Black and pick him up by his hair. Black started fighting Vegeta again after that and was clearly still inferior. Either zenkai just can't boost him much higher at a certain point or the gap was too big.

How do you know Goku didn't have enough energy to fly away after the fight?

Hit did not only fly away. He flew all the way back to universe 6. Goku didn't fly to another universe after the fight ended. And nothing indicated he could. Hit was shown to do it though so we know he had the reserves left to do so.

The episode ended before we saw where the gang went next. Hit uses Timeskip within a pocket dimension, but when someone shatters it whilst in use he becomes exposed to harm, as seen by what happened when Goku Kamehameha'd it. Black's final boost dwarfed Goku so much that I doubt any Zenkai Goku might have got would ultimately change the large gap between them. Black should be capable of recreating Goku's feat without as much effort as him.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the front of post Future Trunks arc Goku's power in relation to post rage boost Black. I don't believe Black could destroy the pocket dimension without using every bit of his power in a kamehameha like Goku did.



Hit's Flash Fist technique is visible, so following Black >>> Hit (Ep 72), he should be able to dodge it, or at least survive it then properly prepare for it next time. It only took Goku 3 tries to completely understand how it works and how to properly counter it, and Goku deliberately made it harder for himself to do this by choosing to fight Hit in the woods for some time before coming out into the open.[/quote]

What? It's not visible. Goku has to close his eyes and focus INTENSELY on energy sensing to be able to dodge it. Sight is not enough.

Even if Hit somehow manages to severely injure Black despite the power difference, I wouldn't put it past Black to use his Time Ring or Instant Transmission to escape and recover in a safer environment. Black's quick thinking should be considered here.

The fight ends when Black retreats. Hit would think it's over fly back to his universe and Black wouldn't be able to follow him as his saiyan body makes it so he needs oxygen and can't fight for long in the vaccum of space.

Temporarily making the clones vanish with attacks won't change the fact they will continue to effortlessly reappear and disturb him like they did with Goku and Vegeta. The clones also seem to inherit Black's strength too, judging by how they could damage Goku and Vegeta, so they could be troublesome here.

And? The clones would get in Black's way/be a hindrance if there were to be a close up fight between him and Hit. Hit could just timeskip or go into a rift to dodge and the clones would end up punching Black by mistake. Black would probably dispel them himself in that case.

Thinking that Hit would attempt to assassinate Black in the same way and from the distance he tried to with Goku in their second fight is very specific too. When Hit isn't carrying out an instructed assassination task, he becomes a martial artist that enjoys fighting, and he doesn't go out of his way to hide his attacks or only attack from melee range. I think Black would adjust to his fighting style after some time and take him out.

[/quote]

Black would be unable to see the invisible/intangible shockwave attack coming no matter what distance Hit fires it from. Especially considering it can be sent through rifts to close a distance extremely quickly and have an unpredictable trajectory. Black would not know he'd need to close his eyes and focus extremely hard on energy sensing.

Hit doesn't enjoy fighting every fighter the way he enjoys fighting Goku. It would be pretty clear to see Black's malevolence and killing intent. And Hit's not going to not go for the kill against a fighter clearly trying to kill him.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Mental training in general increases ki output (since the mind is an aspect of ki). This was shown with how Goku Black increased his ki by using Goku's movements and syncing his mind up better with his new body.

The actual intention of the mind training should be considered. Goku was particularly conscious of the things around him, due to wanting to make his sensing ability sharper. If you assume Goku got a power boost from that, even though such wasn't stated or implied, then you'd also have to believe that a power boost occured in every DB moment in which a character was in the process of sensing or attempting to sense someone. The Goku Black situation you mentioned is different because his ki increases were coming from the attacks he was taking.

I think you're confusing things. Black said something more akin to "i'm ashamed that i've just been humiliated by an appetizer like you" right before the rage boost. I don't think he called Vegeta an appetizer again after the rage boost.

He did.

We saw Vegeta beat the shit out of Black and pick him up by his hair. Black started fighting Vegeta again after that and was clearly still inferior. Either zenkai just can't boost him much higher at a certain point or the gap was too big.

After the hair grab and punch, the fight stopped until after Black's anger boost. There was no implied limit for Black's damage boosts.

Hit did not only fly away. He flew all the way back to universe 6. Goku didn't fly to another universe after the fight ended. And nothing indicated he could. Hit was shown to do it though so we know he had the reserves left to do so.

Hit looked just as exhausted as Goku after the fight, and unlike Vados (w/ Champa), he flew pretty slowly when he took off. Hit never specified that he was going back to Universe 6 immediately, so perhaps he took time to recover before heading back there.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the front of post Future Trunks arc Goku's power in relation to post rage boost Black. I don't believe Black could destroy the pocket dimension without using every bit of his power in a kamehameha like Goku did.

Ok, but let me ask you something: If you followed Black (peak) >>> Hit (Ep 72), would you still think that Black doesn't have a higher chance of winning? Because your judgement on this hypothetical battle seems to be based on Black being around the level of SSJB Goku (Ep 72), whereas mine isn't.

What? It's not visible. Goku has to close his eyes and focus INTENSELY on energy sensing to be able to dodge it. Sight is not enough. Black would be unable to see the invisible/intangible shockwave attack coming no matter what distance Hit fires it from. Especially considering it can be sent through rifts to close a distance extremely quickly and have an unpredictable trajectory. Black would not know he'd need to close his eyes and focus extremely hard on energy sensing.

Keeping your eyes closed and being extra focused helps to deal with Flash Fist, but that doesn't change the fact that the attack is actually visible, as seen from the scan that I posted before and the many other times it was displayed on-screen.

The fight ends when Black retreats. Hit would think it's over fly back to his universe and Black wouldn't be able to follow him as his saiyan body makes it so he needs oxygen and can't fight for long in the vaccum of space.

When Hit thought he successfully killed Goku, he still waited around. The OP didn't make any specific rules for this fight, so I assume this fight ends when one of them is KO'd or killed. Anyway, I doubt a scenario in which Black would be massively injured would even occur in this battle.

And? The clones would get in Black's way/be a hindrance if there were to be a close up fight between him and Hit. Hit could just timeskip or go into a rift to dodge and the clones would end up punching Black by mistake. Black would probably dispel them himself in that case.

As expressed previously, Black likes to let his clones fight for him. Even if they fought with him, Black's clones are shown to have decent team coordination, and never accidentally hurt themselves, so they should be capable of fighting efficiently with their master.

Hit doesn't enjoy fighting every fighter the way he enjoys fighting Goku. It would be pretty clear to see Black's malevolence and killing intent. And Hit's not going to not go for the kill against a fighter clearly trying to kill him.

Black's aura is hard to decipher on first meeting, as evidenced by how Piccolo, Beerus, Whis, etc. couldn't initially tell what Black was really like. With this considered, I doubt Hit would immediately know the type of person he's dealing with.

 

[xenos5]

Hit stomps this fight now.

It's been shown he can use his moves in combination (he can go into his parallel dimension/dimensional phase and timeskip at the same time).

His improvement is to the level he can catch up to Dyspo's speed in a single fight despite Dyspo becoming thousands of times faster in short bursts. Even if Black somehow were stronger and faster than Hit, Hit would catch up even faster than what Black's zenkai boosts have shown.

I mean just look at this

Hit BLITZED Dyspo

All he has to do to end this fight is just insert one or more shockwaves in Black's heart during timeskip and Black won't even get the opportunity to resuscitate himself with a ki blast like Goku did as Goku was charging up a ki blast before Hit, hit Goku's heart.

 

[xenos5]

Oh and to add insult to injury Vados pretty much specifically said Hit's shockwaves are invisible so yeah, Black's not dodging them unless he has knowledge beforehand and knows to boost his sensing to the max by closing his eyes.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Hit is also said to gotten stronger by Goku.

 

[xenos5]

Hit is also said to gotten stronger by Goku.

I think he meant after improving against Dyspo. Which he should easily be able to replicate in this fight with improvement.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Hit is also said to gotten stronger by Goku.

I think he meant after improving against Dyspo. Which he should easily be able to replicate in this fight with improvement.

Goku said ''stronger'' so you can't twist it.

 

[xenos5]

Hit is also said to gotten stronger by Goku.

I think he meant after improving against Dyspo. Which he should easily be able to replicate in this fight with improvement.

Goku said ''stronger'' so you can't twist it.

Eh? Hit's overall stats increase when he improves along with his timeskip hax. How am I twisting it?

Are you trying to claim it's some gains from offscreen training rather than the increases we clearly saw Hit get?

Even if that were the case Hit's improvement has shown to be so massively effective that he could reach the same level without it.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I think he meant after improving against Dyspo. Which he should easily be able to replicate in this fight with improvement.

Goku said ''stronger'' so you can't twist it.

Eh? Hit's overall stats increase when he improves along with his timeskip hax. How am I twisting it?

Are you trying to claim it's some gains from offscreen training rather than the increases we clearly saw Hit get?

Even if that were the case Hit's improvement has shown to be so massively effective that he could reach the same level without it.

Goku said Hit gotten stronger which mean overall including his techniques and speed. I thought you meant was his techniques improved but not his strength.

 

[xenos5]

Goku said Hit gotten stronger which mean overall including his techniques and speed. I thought you meant was his techniques improved but not his strength.

Ah, ok. That wasn't my intention.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Hit stomps this fight now.

It's been shown he can use his moves in combination (he can go into his parallel dimension/dimensional phase and timeskip at the same time).

His improvement is to the level he can catch up to Dyspo's speed in a single fight despite Dyspo becoming thousands of times faster in short bursts. Even if Black somehow were stronger and faster than Hit, Hit would catch up even faster than what Black's zenkai boosts have shown.

I mean just look at this

Hit BLITZED Dyspo

All he has to do to end this fight is just insert one or more shockwaves in Black's heart during timeskip and Black won't even get the opportunity to resuscitate himself with a ki blast like Goku did as Goku was charging up a ki blast before Hit, hit Goku's heart.

Just to make things clear, I think current Hit would beat Black, but not Hit from episode 72 (which this thread is based on). I don't think Hit improved beyond his limit during the fight because it was revealed that he was allowing himself to get attacked and purposely let Dyspo put him in a position where he's at the edge of the ring. Hit tricked people into thinking he was using Timeskip by replicating the muscle movements of it. When Hit started using Timeskip for real, Dyspo was in trouble.

Oh and to add insult to injury Vados pretty much specifically said Hit's shockwaves are invisible so yeah, Black's not dodging them unless he has knowledge beforehand and knows to boost his sensing to the max by closing his eyes.

It was Universe 11's Angel that said that. And she didn't make a claim, she said what she thinks. Considering she was pretty far away from the attack when it was launched, I wouldn't take her word for it. I would rather go with the fact that the attack was literally seen on-screen once again.

 

[xenos5]

Just to make things clear, I think current Hit would beat Black, but not Hit from episode 72 (which this thread is based on). I don't think Hit improved beyond his limit during the fight because it was revealed that he was allowing himself to get attacked and purposely let Dyspo put him in a position where he's at the edge of the ring. Hit tricked people into thinking he was using Timeskip by replicating the muscle movements of it. When Hit started using Timeskip for real, Dyspo was in trouble.

The gif I posted seemed pretty clear to me. Feinting with a fake timeskip alone couldn't have accomplished that. Dyspo used his burst speed ability and after improving Hit was fast enough to maneuver and gut punch Dyspo before he could reach him.

Improving can yield massive boosts for Hit's speed. If he could improve to such a high degree in that situation I don't see how he'd have an issue improving here.

Hit's tactics certainly were smart but they weren't all Hit had. Even before Hit outsped Dyspo in the instance I showed in that gif Hit was catching up to Dyspo's speed and matching him in clashes (they were pretty much even speed-wise seemingly when Kunshee intervened to turn the fight to Dyspo's advantage).

Universe 11's Angel said that. And she didn't make a claim, she said what she thinks. Considering she was pretty far away from the attack when it was launched, I wouldn't take her word for it. I would rather go with the fact that the attack was literally seen on-screen once again.

Are you kidding me? The visual representation is for the audience's benefit. It is invisible from the perspective of the characters in the show. That has been made plenty clear.

 

[Spiral-Force]

The gif I posted seemed pretty clear to me. Feinting with a fake timeskip alone couldn't have accomplished that. Dyspo used his burst speed ability and after improving Hit was fast enough to maneuver and gut punch Dyspo before he could reach him.

The gif you posted is from when Hit was using his Timeskip for real.

Improving can yield massive boosts for Hit's speed. If he could improve to such a high degree in that situation I don't see how he'd have an issue improving here.

Hit wasn't confirmed to have improved. What was pointed out is that he intentionally allowed Dyspo to get the better of him initially.

Hit's tactics certainly were smart but they weren't all Hit had. Even before Hit outsped Dyspo in the instance I showed in that gif Hit was catching up to Dyspo's speed and matching him in clashes (they were pretty much even speed-wise seemingly when Kunshee intervened to turn the fight to Dyspo's advantage).

Hit accomplished that by using more effort, not going beyond his full limit.

Are you kidding me? The visual representation is for the audience's benefit. It is invisible from the perspective of the characters in the show. That has been made plenty clear.

If it was meant to be invisible, the writers could easily have just given it an outline with no internal colour like the shockwaves from Beerus and SSJG Goku's fight.

 

[xenos5]

The gif you posted is from when Hit was using his Timeskip for real.

No. This is timeskip

(done in combination with Hit's dimensional phase/pseudeo intangibility but still timeskip). it's easily recognized as timeskip by Dyspo after. Hit used a pure physical attack against Dyspo in the other gif. The difference is clear (the background doesn't change to the glass-esque look for the first gif).

Hit wasn't confirmed to have improved. What was pointed out is that he intentionally allowed Dyspo to get the better of him initially.

I disagree. Toppo specifically mentioned Hit was adapting to Dyspo's speed on the go. He was still getting hit initially BUT he was avoiding getting hit in vital areas. Later we see Hit matching Dyspo in a clash (the clash before Kunshee starts restricting Hit). And then finally Hit blitzes Dyspo after using the timeskip feint in the gif I posted earlier.

Hit accomplished that by using more effort, not going beyond his full limit.

I don't agree.

If it was meant to be invisible, the writers could easily have just given it an outline with no internal colour like the shockwaves from Beerus and SSJG Goku's fight.

You know that's utter semantics when characters in verse refer to it as invisible. An ANGEL no less. They've been a huge well of knowledge in DBS so their statements should not be disregarded lightly.

The only way we've seen the shockwave been dodgeable is a character amping their energy sensing to max while closing their eyes. Otherwise you can't see it.