SSJR Black (Scythe) vs Hit

[Spiral-Force]

No. This is timeskip

(done in combination with Hit's dimensional phase/pseudeo intangibility but still timeskip). it's easily recognized as timeskip by Dyspo after. Hit used a pure physical attack against Dyspo in the other gif. The difference is clear (the background doesn't change to the glass-esque look for the first gif).

My mistake. I thought Hit was referring to a previous occurence when he said he was faking Timeskip due to the white stuff around his back in the other gif.

I disagree. Toppo specifically mentioned Hit was adapting to Dyspo's speed on the go. He was still getting hit initially BUT he was avoiding getting hit in vital areas. Later we see Hit matching Dyspo in a clash (the clash before Kunshee starts restricting Hit). And then finally Hit blitzes Dyspo after using the timeskip feint in the gif I posted earlier.

I don't agree.

After that statement, Toppo realised Hit was deliberately letting himself get attacked. The statement that you referenced can still work without Hit going beyond his limit since adapting simply means making an adjustment, which is applicable to using more effort.

You know that's utter semantics when characters in verse refer to it as invisible. An ANGEL no less. They've been a huge well of knowledge in DBS so their statements should not be disregarded lightly. The only way we've seen the shockwave been dodgeable is a character amping their energy sensing to max while closing their eyes. Otherwise you can't see it.

She didn't make a claim, it was her belief. And her belief is contested by actual footage. If Flash Fist was really invisible, then logically it would lack colour like other invisible shockwaves in the series (e.g. Kiai). We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[xenos5]

My mistake. I thought Hit was referring to a previous occurence when he said he was faking Timeskip due to the white stuff around his back in the other gif.

Ok. So as I said in the 1st gif Hit out maneuvers Dyspo's burst speed. That's only possible if Hit improved his speed massively. He drew Dyspo in with a fake timeskip feint but that wouldn't be enough on it's own to reach Dyspo before Dyspo could reach him.

After that statement, Toppo realised Hit was deliberately letting himself get attacked. The statement that you referenced can still work without Hit going beyond his limit since adapting simply means making an adjustment, which is applicable to using more effort.

Hit was deliberately letting himself be attacked in the way that he was letting Dyspo force him to the edge. He still needed to improve to go above Dyspo's speed but he manipulated where the location of the fight would change to.

She didn't make a claim, it was her belief. And her belief is contested by actual footage. If Flash Fist was really invisible, then logically it would lack colour like other invisible shockwaves in the series (e.g. Kiai). We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I just don't think Artistic License is a valid argument here. It doesn't have to look like kiai to be invisible. It'd be boring if it looked exactly like kiai so I assume they gave it some color so it had more flare when the audience is viewing it. If the characters themselves could actually see it why didn't they say so?

It's like how we're seeing extremely high speed fights that would be too fast for our eyes to process normally because they're slowed down/shown from the perspective of those fighting for the benefit of the audience.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Ok. So as I said in the 1st gif Hit out maneuvers Dyspo's burst speed. That's only possible if Hit improved his speed massively. He drew Dyspo in with a fake timeskip feint but that wouldn't be enough on it's own to reach Dyspo before Dyspo could reach him. Hit was deliberately letting himself be attacked in the way that he was letting Dyspo force him to the edge. He still needed to improve to go above Dyspo's speed but he manipulated where the location of the fight would change to.

I think the reason Hit was letting himself get attacked was for Dyspo to have a false sense of security. Before the opportunity came for Hit to be punched to the edge, he didn't seem to be trying to get there since he was fighting near the rubble prior, so I don't think he was only holding back for that. It's not like this would be the first time Hit has held back massively and was consequently tagged with attacks; look at Base Goku vs Hit in the U6-7 Tournament.

I just don't think Artistic License is a valid argument here. It doesn't have to look like kiai to be invisible. It'd be boring if it looked exactly like kiai so I assume they gave it some color so it had more flare when the audience is viewing it. If the characters themselves could actually see it why didn't they say so? It's like how we're seeing extremely high speed fights that would be too fast for our eyes to process normally because they're slowed down/shown from the perspective of those fighting for the benefit of the audience.

Since Flash Fist is recognisable as coloured on-screen, we don't need characters to reinforce what is explicit. I think it's rather redundant for a so-called 'invisible' attack to be coloured every time it's used, especially since there are multiple instances in DB in which shockwaves fit the description of being invisible during high speed fights that we can see on-screen. An attack doesn't need to be mislabelled as invisible to look cool.

 

[xenos5]

I think the reason Hit was letting himself get attacked was for Dyspo to have a false sense of security. Before the opportunity came for Hit to be punched to the edge, he didn't seem to be trying to get there since he was fighting near the rubble prior, so I don't think he was only holding back for that.

Or Hit just didn't want to tip Dyspo off to his plan and didn't go to the edge of the ring himself as that would've been too obvious.

It's not like this would be the first time Hit has held back massively and was consequently attacked; look at Base Goku vs Hit in the U6-7 Tournament.

Dyspo's speed is emphasized IMMENSELY. Suppressed Champa and Zeno can't see him when he does his burst speed. I don't buy that Hit would be holding back against him in that way rather than it being improvement.

Since Flash Fist is recognisable as coloured on-screen, we don't need characters to reinforce what is explicit. I think it's rather redundant for a so-called 'invisible' attack to be coloured every time it's used, especially since there are multiple instances in DB in which shockwaves fit the description of being invisible during high speed fights that we can see on-screen. An attack doesn't need to be mislabelled as invisible to look cool.

It is said to be invisible by an Angel. Goku CANNOT dodge it without closing his eyes and amping his energy sensing. It's invisible whether you like it or not, dude. You've just gotta accept what is presented to us and not assume visual flair for the benefit of the audience disproves what is told to us.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Or Hit just didn't want to tip Dyspo off to his plan and didn't go to the edge of the ring himself as that would've been too obvious.

He wouldn't need to get to the edge immediately, just fight in a position that steadily leads the fight there.

Dyspo's speed is emphasized IMMENSELY. Suppressed Champa and Zeno can't see him when he does his burst speed. I don't buy that Hit would be holding back against him in that way rather than it being improvement.

Hit tends to mention his mid-battle improvements when they occur, so him not mentioning an increase as mighty as the one you're saying he got would be pretty strange if he indeed got it. Whatever floats your boat, though.

It is said to be invisible by an Angel. Goku CANNOT dodge it without closing his eyes and amping his energy sensing. It's invisible whether you like it or not, dude. You've just gotta accept what is presented to us and not assume visual flair for the benefit of the audience disproves what is told to us.

The Angel was giving their opinion of what they saw from an area that was distant from the range of the attack, and what she thinks isn't consistent with how the attack is shown, so I'm not convinced that her judgement is correct. An attack can "wow" the audience without having a conflicting label. Goku dodged Hit's Flash Fist in the woods with his eyes open, and that was before he completely understood how the attack works.

 

[Spiral-Force]

We may as well wrap this up soon. We'll never see eye to eye on this.

 

[xenos5]

He wouldn't need to get to the edge immediately, just fight in a position that steadily leads the fight there.

Isn't that what happened? At least it felt that way to me.

Hit tends to mention his mid-battle improvements when they occur, so him not mentioning an increase as mighty as the one you're saying he got would be pretty strange if he indeed got it. Whatever floats your boat, though.

He doesn't really need to mention it again as it's obvious to the audience IMO.

The Angel was giving their opinion of what they saw from an area that was distant from the range of the attack, and what she thinks isn't consistent with how the attack is shown, so I'm not convinced that her judgement is correct. An attack can "wow" the audience without having a conflicting label. Goku dodged Hit's Flash Fist in the woods with his eyes open, and that was before he completely understood how the attack works.

No, Goku's eyes were closed and he was amping his energy sensing from what I saw.

Angel's statements have been so reliable to the point where I see them on the same level as narrator statements tbh. Not a single statement from an angel has been disproven so far.

 

[xenos5]

We may as well wrap this up soon. We'll never see eye to eye on this.

I guess. Still i've had fun debating this with you, dude. Hope we can do it again sometime for a different matchup, maybe.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Isn't that what happened? At least it felt that way to me.

^ They primarily fought in this area until Hit leaped off of one of the surfaces in the background and was punched all the way to the edge of the arena.

He doesn't really need to mention it again as it's obvious to the audience IMO.

I think it's more reasonable to believe Hit only used his true power in the final stages of his fight with Dyspo because this correlates well with other relevant events. To elaborate on this:

1. God Goku didn't seem to take much damage from Dyspo's quick burst attacks, and he was able to stop Dyspo from kicking him when he went SSJB, much to Dyspo's shock.

2. Goku was willing to fight Hit after their team up, which indicates that the level Hit was at when he was stomping Dyspo is something that SSJB Goku is at least relevant to. (And we know that Goku's battle power doesn't rise during a fight unless via SSJ boosts or Kaioken or on a rare occasion, a rage boost)

When you join the above factors with the fact that Hit and Goku rivalled each other around the end of the last saga, everything falls into place quite well.

No, Goku's eyes were closed and he was amping his energy sensing from what I saw.

He managed to dodge it with open eyes (albeit barely), but he leaped so far that he hit some trees. You can see this at 1:40 in the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j82CWw3iUE

When you consider that Goku didn't fully understand the attack at that point, and that Hit had many ki duplicates in the area to confuse Goku at the time, and that Goku didn't know the attack could go through trees, he ought to be be capable of dodging it with his eyes open without as much trouble as before by the time they came out of the woods and fought in an open space. Of course, he didn't need to do that since closing his eyes makes dealing with Flash Fist easier for him, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have.

Angel's statements have been so reliable to the point where I see them on the same level as narrator statements tbh. Not a single statement from an angel has been disproven so far.

There isn't another scenario synonymous with this one regarding this particular Angel to judge her reliability with, and Flash Fist differs quite a bit from the invisible shockwaves we've seen many times in the series, so I'm ok with not taking her word for it.

I guess. Still i've had fun debating this with you, dude. Hope we can do it again sometime for a different matchup, maybe.

Sounds good.