SSJR Black (Scythe) vs Hit

[xenos5]

I'm aware of how zenkai boosts work. Logically they would, but they don't have to have gotten it. Zenkai boosts were pretty much abandon post Freeza arc. There must be some proof that they received zenkai boosts, otherwise it's just baseless. There are no statements regarding a power increase after coming back from near death, nor did they do any better fighting Black and Zamasu. Them receiving zenkai boosts isn't supported by neither statements or feats. You're just saying they have to get it because they did way back in the Freeza arc, ignoring that they didn't receive anymore after that.
I'd buy it if there was statements referencing a power increase, or Goku and Vegeta actually doing better against Black and Zamasu. They got beaten, came back, and beaten again just as badly as the first time - something that shouldn't happen had they received a zenkai boost. The only time they did better was after Vegeta had trained in the RoSaT. Even without statements we know Vegeta had increased his power, since he's now beating Black, something he should've done long ago had he received a zenkai boost, but no, he did it first after he TRAINED!

This is ridiculous. The zenkai boosts just weren't large enough to make a difference for a long while. They never just stopped working.

Considering Black's rage boost against Vegeta is unquantifiable (it was only shown to give him a new ability) it doesn't matter how little the zenkai boosts Goku and Vegeta got after that fight were. They would still be above Black as it was never made clear Black ever caught up to Vegeta again (Vegeta easily dodging Black's energy slash doesn't help Black's case) and even if he did catch up to Vegeta even the tiniest of zenkai boosts would put Vegeta back above him. And Goku has clearly caught up to current SSB Vegeta as Beerus made Goku the lead fighter (which he wouldn't do if he was a fuckton weaker than Vegeta).

 

[Event Horizon]

I'm aware of how zenkai boosts work. Logically they would, but they don't have to have gotten it. Zenkai boosts were pretty much abandon post Freeza arc. There must be some proof that they received zenkai boosts, otherwise it's just baseless. There are no statements regarding a power increase after coming back from near death, nor did they do any better fighting Black and Zamasu. Them receiving zenkai boosts isn't supported by neither statements or feats. You're just saying they have to get it because they did way back in the Freeza arc, ignoring that they didn't receive anymore after that.
I'd buy it if there was statements referencing a power increase, or Goku and Vegeta actually doing better against Black and Zamasu. They got beaten, came back, and beaten again just as badly as the first time - something that shouldn't happen had they received a zenkai boost. The only time they did better was after Vegeta had trained in the RoSaT. Even without statements we know Vegeta had increased his power, since he's now beating Black, something he should've done long ago had he received a zenkai boost, but no, he did it first after he TRAINED!

This is ridiculous. The zenkai boosts just weren't large enough to make a difference for a long while. They never just stopped working.

Considering Black's rage boost against Vegeta is unquantifiable (it was only shown to give him a new ability) it doesn't matter how little the zenkai boosts Goku and Vegeta got after that fight were. They would still be above Black as it was never made clear Black ever caught up to Vegeta again (Vegeta easily dodging Black's energy slash doesn't help Black's case) and even if he did catch up to Vegeta even the tiniest of zenkai boosts would put Vegeta back above him. And Goku has clearly caught up to current SSB Vegeta as Beerus made Goku the lead fighter (which he wouldn't do if he was a fuckton weaker than Vegeta).

Actually they can just stop working if Toriyama feel like it. Zenkai boosts were present mostly in the Freeza arc, where characters begged others to almost kill one another so they'd get zenkai boosts. Never again has that been redone, and pretty much the only time zenkai boost has been mentioned afterwards is when Cell came back. It seems they were just forgotten after the introduction of SSJ, and for good reasons since it was just a cheap way of making characters stronger.
SSJ Grade II Vegeta was beaten pretty severely by Perfect Cell, yet nothing suggests Vegeta received a boost in power. Realistically there were plenty of times when the characters should've gotten a zenkai boost (literally every time Vegeta jobbed, for example), yet nothing suggests they did.
You're free to believe they get zenkai boosts, I ain't stopping you. But I need undeniable proof that they got it, and not just "they got it because they got it back in the freeza arc".
That's Super power scaling for you. Piccolo was around Boo arc SSJ tier. Now out of nowhere is he able to fight Final Form Frost who is stronger than Base Goku (post-God). Sure Frost wasn't fresh, but Piccolo wasn't exactly outmatched either. How did Piccolo increase so much out of nowhere? Plot. It's hard, if not impossible to explain using in-universe logic.

 

[Animelover5487]

Anyway I have Vegeta SSJB (Post Rosat)> Goku Black SSJR (Scythe, Rage Boost), since this last one thought that the only way to defeat the Saiyajins was Fusing with Future Zamasu.

Why do you have SSJB Goku (Third Trip)> SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip)? We were given to understand that Vegeta at that time was much more powerful than Goku. In Chapter 63 of DBS.

I actually have Goku Black SSJR (Debut)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament), because Zamasu saw the Universal Tournament and even so, Goku Black when he first became SSJR, he felt invincible and even said that Goku He would never reach that level of fighting.

Black didn't need to fuse he just did because they had a technique that could defeat them (Mafuba) and Future Zamasu didn't want to take any chances. Goku overpowered Merged Zamasu's blast while it took both Vegeta and Trunks to deflect it and even then that didn't do any damage.

Zamasu didn't see the whole U6 vs U7 tournament, only part of Goku vs Hit.

Or possibly also Vegeta SSJB + Goku SSJB> Goku Black SSJR (Final) + Future Zamasu.

I'm sure Vegeta was more powerful than Goku, until in the fight against Merged Zamasu in chapter 65, Goku gets a great increase of power at the end of the Episode, that's when Goku launches his Kamehameha. Then at the beginning of Episode 66, Future Trunks and Vegeta recognize that Goku has become stronger.

Hear out there that the claim that Goku Black was stronger than all to Beerus's obeisation, at the time that Goku Black SSJR, was overtaken by Goku SSJB (Enraged). Goku Black has all these lights on:

Goku Black SSJR (Debut)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Combat Saiyajins)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Goku Enraged)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Future Trunks)
Goku Black SSJR (Final)

A if the claim is that Goku Black SSJR (Post Combat Saiyajins)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament).

Anyway I would not be surprised that even Goku Black SSJR (Debut)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament), because Goku Black thought that Goku would never achieve that power, therefore: Goku Black SSJR (Debut) >>> >>>>>>> Goku SSJB (Universal Tournament).

With all that I told you, what do you think of a match between Goku Black SSJR (Debut) vs. Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament)?

Kaioken 10 Goku defeats Initial SSJR Black since this is before all the crazy Zenkai and rage boosts showed up.

 

[SIAD]

Black didn't need to fuse he just did because they had a technique that could defeat them (Mafuba) and Future Zamasu didn't want to take any chances. Goku overpowered Merged Zamasu's blast while it took both Vegeta and Trunks to deflect it and even then that didn't do any damage.

Zamasu didn't see the whole U6 vs U7 tournament, only part of Goku vs Hit.

Or possibly also Vegeta SSJB + Goku SSJB> Goku Black SSJR (Final) + Future Zamasu.

I'm sure Vegeta was more powerful than Goku, until in the fight against Merged Zamasu in chapter 65, Goku gets a great increase of power at the end of the Episode, that's when Goku launches his Kamehameha. Then at the beginning of Episode 66, Future Trunks and Vegeta recognize that Goku has become stronger.

Hear out there that the claim that Goku Black was stronger than all to Beerus's obeisation, at the time that Goku Black SSJR, was overtaken by Goku SSJB (Enraged). Goku Black has all these lights on:

Goku Black SSJR (Debut)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Combat Saiyajins)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Goku Enraged)
Goku Black SSJR (Post Future Trunks)
Goku Black SSJR (Final)

A if the claim is that Goku Black SSJR (Post Combat Saiyajins)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament).

Anyway I would not be surprised that even Goku Black SSJR (Debut)> Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament), because Goku Black thought that Goku would never achieve that power, therefore: Goku Black SSJR (Debut) >>> >>>>>>> Goku SSJB (Universal Tournament).

With all that I told you, what do you think of a match between Goku Black SSJR (Debut) vs. Goku SSJB Kaioken x10 (Universal Tournament)?

Kaioken 10 Goku defeats Initial SSJR Black since this is before all the crazy Zenkai and rage boosts showed up.

204/5000
If the level of Goku SSJB (Universal Tournament) is 1. Then what levels of fight would you have Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Goku Black and Future Zamasu during the Arc of Goku Black?

Can you give me your numbers?

 

[Animelover5487]

I don't really have numbers, I have been thinking about making numbers but the power scaling makes it a bit hard.

 

[SIAD]

If you want to show them to us at random.

Show me your food chain?

 

[Animelover5487]

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

U6 Tournament Kaioken 10 Goku and Hit would be about SSJR Black (Future Trunks) level.

 

[Keedounan]

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

U6 Tournament Kaioken 10 Goku and Hit would be about SSJR Black (Future Trunks) level.

Wait, why is there the mention of Hit Zenkai? Didn't Goku died?

 

[Animelover5487]

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

U6 Tournament Kaioken 10 Goku and Hit would be about SSJR Black (Future Trunks) level.

Wait, why is there the mention of Hit Zenkai? Didn't Goku died?

Goku didn't literally die. His heart stopped for some seconds before being revived similar to what happened after he lost to Piccolo Daimao.

 

[Keedounan]

SSJB Goku (Hit Zenkai) > Hit (Current) > Arale >= SSJB Goku (Pre Hit Zenkai) = SSJB Vegeta (Current) > SSJB Goku (End of FT arc) = SSJB Vegeta (End of FT arc) > SSJR Black (Scythe, Rage Boost) > SSJB Goku (Third Trip) > SSJB Vegeta (Third Trip) > SSJR Black (Post Future Trunks)

U6 Tournament Kaioken 10 Goku and Hit would be about SSJR Black (Future Trunks) level.

Wait, why is there the mention of Hit Zenkai? Didn't Goku died?

Goku didn't literally die. His heart stopped for some seconds before being revived similar to what happened after he lost to Piccolo Daimao.

It counts as clinical death, though.

 

[Papasmurf]

People have come back from numerous near death experiences. Death is when your brain or body just can't restore itself to functioning life no matter what anyone tries (barring Dragon Balls/life transfusion in this universe's case)

 

[Super Freddy God]

Hit is definetely stronger than Black, to be honest I think Black wouldn't see through Hit's technique. Goku is more intelligent in fighting sense than Black.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

Black has a higher pl but Hit's hax is way better

If hit doesn't kill black instantly than black wins due to getting Zenkais mid battle

 

[Spiral-Force]

Goku Black (Scythe) possesses power that exceeds Goku/Vegeta (3rd trip to the future) based on this statement:

"Listen you appetizer, by turning my anger into power I have gained another power. If anger can be a source of strength...then the anger I hold, greater than anyone else's, makes me the strongest."

Nothing really suggests that Goku made significant gains between this part of the series and his rematch with Hit, so Black should be ahead of Goku/Hit (DBS Episode 72).

Goku Black's combat skills are comparable to Goku's, as seen by how their h2h combat exchanges were equivalent when they were fighting at similar levels of power (Base Black vs SSJ2 Goku). So if Goku can identify how to deal with Black's timeskip and assassination techniques, then Black should be able to as well. Black ought to win this fight.

 

[xenos5]

Goku Black (Scythe) possesses power that exceeds Goku/Vegeta (3rd trip to the future) based on this statement:

"Listen you appetizer, by turning my anger into power I have gained another power. If anger can be a source of strength...then the anger I hold, greater than anyone else's, makes me the strongest."

Nothing really suggests that Goku made significant gains between this part of the series and his rematch with Hit, so Black should be ahead of Goku/Hit (DBS Episode 72).

Goku Black's combat skills are comparable to Goku's, as seen by how their h2h combat exchanges were equivalent when they were fighting at similar levels of power (Base Black vs SSJ2 Goku). So if Goku can identify how to deal with Black's timeskip and assassination techniques, then Black should be able to as well. Black ought to win this fight.

Black gained hax abilities with the scythe. Not much higher power. We see SSB Vegeta being able to physically block Black's scythe when they clash.

Do you know why this is significant? Because no one was able to block Black's energy blade before Vegeta did when he came back from his Hyperbolic Time Chamber Training with a strengthened Super Saiyan Blue form.

SSB Vegeta still being able to block Black's energy blade after it had evolved into a scythe indicates Vegeta was still in the same realm of power as him or even slightly above him as the ki coating his body was dense enough to the piercing power of Black's ki scythe.


Also. Hit's timeskip could no longer be countered by SSB Goku after he'd improved it to a certain point. Since the duration was too long to predict where Hit would be after it and he'd have to take too many punches during the duration. Only SSBKKx10 could counter it and even then Hit was able to improve again so timeskip could work on that form (We see this with him freezing SSBKKx10 Goku inside of the timeskip). So there's no way SSR Black could counter timeskip since he was never proven to be SSBKK level let alone SSBKKx10 level.

I also doubt Black would be able to deal with Hit's assassination techniques as Goku had to almost die before he could gain the knowledge necessary to attempt to deal with them. There's no guarantee Black would come up with the same idea to restart his heart with a ki blast like Goku did. That has nothing to do with martial arts skill.

 

[xenos5]

Black has a higher pl but Hit's hax is way better

If hit doesn't kill black instantly than black wins due to getting Zenkais mid battle

You forget Hit has improvement to match Black's zenkai. Improvement allowed Hit to surpass SSB Goku, freeze SSBKKx10 Goku in time, and do significant damage to SSBKK Goku. It is just as good or even better than Black's Zenkai.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Black gained hax abilities with the scythe. Not much higher power. We see SSB Vegeta being able to physically block Black's scythe when they clash.

Do you know why this is significant? Because no one was able to block Black's energy blade before Vegeta did when he came back from his Hyperbolic Time Chamber Training with a strengthened Super Saiyan Blue form.

SSB Vegeta still being able to block Black's energy blade after it had evolved into a scythe indicates Vegeta was still in the same realm of power as him or even slightly above him as the ki coating his body was dense enough to the piercing power of Black's ki scythe.

Also. Hit's timeskip could no longer be countered by SSB Goku after he'd improved it to a certain point. Since the duration was too long to predict where Hit would be after it and he'd have to take too many punches during the duration. Only SSBKKx10 could counter it and even then Hit was able to improve again so timeskip could work on that form (We see this with him freezing SSBKKx10 Goku inside of the timeskip). So there's no way SSR Black could counter timeskip since he was never proven to be SSBKK level let alone SSBKKx10 level.

I also doubt Black would be able to deal with Hit's assassination techniques as Goku had to almost die before he could gain the knowledge necessary to attempt to deal with them. There's no guarantee Black would come up with the same idea to restart his heart with a ki blast like Goku did. That has nothing to do with martial arts skill.

Vegeta didn't physically block Black's scythe attack, he actually moved out of its way. Black wasn't even worried that he missed, he was more concerned with his comprehension of his new capabilities. I don't think Vegeta's dodge means much in the grand scheme of things because Black was just testing out his new powers. In the quote that I posted, Black said that his anger made him the strongest. If he only gained power through his scythe, then importance would have been placed on that rather than Black himself in the quote. I don't see why Goku Black getting much stronger here is hard for some poeple to come to terms with. He's known to get stronger by enduring pain, and he definitely took a whooole lot of pain in his rematch with Vegeta.

Regular SSJB Goku (Ep 72) was able to break through Hit's Timeskip, and this Goku has nothing solid to place him above peak Black. Even if we consider that Hit could improve his Timeskip in a fight against Goku Black, the latter can get stronger from taking hits, so it's highly possible that Black could match or surpass what Hit dishes out with his improvements. Hit's ki duplicates can be countered with Black's clones, and as we saw from Hit and Goku's 3rd fight, Hit's Flash Fist attacks can be identified with a good degree of concentration, then countered. I honestly think Black has this fight in the bag.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Black gained hax abilities with the scythe. Not much higher power. We see SSB Vegeta being able to physically block Black's scythe when they clash.

Do you know why this is significant? Because no one was able to block Black's energy blade before Vegeta did when he came back from his Hyperbolic Time Chamber Training with a strengthened Super Saiyan Blue form.

SSB Vegeta still being able to block Black's energy blade after it had evolved into a scythe indicates Vegeta was still in the same realm of power as him or even slightly above him as the ki coating his body was dense enough to the piercing power of Black's ki scythe.

Also. Hit's timeskip could no longer be countered by SSB Goku after he'd improved it to a certain point. Since the duration was too long to predict where Hit would be after it and he'd have to take too many punches during the duration. Only SSBKKx10 could counter it and even then Hit was able to improve again so timeskip could work on that form (We see this with him freezing SSBKKx10 Goku inside of the timeskip). So there's no way SSR Black could counter timeskip since he was never proven to be SSBKK level let alone SSBKKx10 level.

I also doubt Black would be able to deal with Hit's assassination techniques as Goku had to almost die before he could gain the knowledge necessary to attempt to deal with them. There's no guarantee Black would come up with the same idea to restart his heart with a ki blast like Goku did. That has nothing to do with martial arts skill.

Vegeta didn't physically block Black's scythe attack, he actually moved out of its way. Black wasn't even worried that he missed, he was more concerned with his comprehension of his new capabilities. I don't think Vegeta's dodge means much in the grand scheme of things because Black was just testing out his new powers. In the quote that I posted, Black said that his anger made him the strongest. If he only gained power through his scythe, then importance would have been placed on that rather than Black himself in the quote. I don't see why Goku Black getting much stronger here is hard for some poeple to come to terms with. He's known to get stronger by enduring pain, and he definitely took a whooole lot of pain in his rematch with Vegeta.

Regular SSJB Goku (Ep 72) was able to break through Hit's Timeskip, and this Goku has nothing solid to place him above peak Black. Even if we consider that Hit could improve his Timeskip in a fight against Goku Black, the latter can get stronger from taking hits, so it's highly possible that Black could match or surpass what Hit dishes out with his improvements. Hit's ki duplicates can be countered with Black's clones, and as we saw from Hit and Goku's 3rd fight, Hit's Flash Fist attacks can be identified with a good degree of concentration, then countered. I honestly think Black has this fight in the bag.

Why Goku didn't surpass Black during Hit arc? After all, Goku was having a special training from Whis that Vegeta didn't even knew and found it later.

 

[xenos5]

Vegeta didn't physically block Black's scythe attack, he actually moved out of its way. Black wasn't even worried that he missed, he was more concerned with his comprehension of his new capabilities. I don't think Vegeta's dodge means much in the grand scheme of things because Black was just testing out his new powers. In the quote that I posted, Black said that his anger made him the strongest. If he only gained power through his scythe, then importance would have been placed on that rather than Black himself in the quote. I don't see why Goku Black getting much stronger here is hard for some poeple to come to terms with. He's known to get stronger by enduring pain, and he definitely took a whooole lot of pain in his rematch with Vegeta.

Vegeta did actually block the scythe. We see it for a frame along with Goku and Zamasu clashing at the same time before both fights are cut away from.

Black relied on anger because he knew Zenkais would not be enough against Vegeta. The difference was just that great.

Regular SSJB Goku (Ep 72) was able to break through Hit's Timeskip, and this Goku has nothing solid to place him above peak Black. Even if we consider that Hit could improve his Timeskip in a fight against Goku Black, the latter can get stronger from taking hits, so it's highly possible that Black could match or surpass what Hit dishes out with his improvements. Hit's ki duplicates can be countered with Black's clones, and as we saw from Hit and Goku's 3rd fight, Hit's Flash Fist attacks can be identified with a good degree of concentration, then countered. I honestly think Black has this fight in the bag.

Hit's pocket dimension isn't timeskip. It's the energy source for his time skip (it contains stored space-time and is the reason he can use timeskip in the world of void during the tournament of power even though time doesn't nomally exist there). And you're neglecting to mention it took a full power SSB Kamehameha from Goku that drained him to nothing just to break that pocket dimension. Do you think it would be viable for Black to drain himself out of SSR to try to do the same thing? Hit doesn't even use transformations, He's SSB level without them, so after taking a kamehameha like that he'd still easily be above Base Black.

SSB Goku has never resisted timeskip like SSBKKx10 Goku moved through it. So Black shouldn't be able to either. Heck Goku never used any level of SSBKK against Black during the future trunks arc (likely out of concern for the risk of using it).

Black won't know Hit would even have a technique like intangible/invisible shockwaves to begin with. So he won't be closing his eyes and devoting everything to energy sensing like Goku was doing later to be able to dodge them. So he'd get killed with the first one just like Goku almost did.

Or even if he somehow learned to dodge the shockwaves without dying, there would still be ways he could easily surprise Black. For instance remember when Hit used a rift to go into his pocket dimension and then opened a rift to appear behind Goku and slam him into the ground with enough force to knock him out of SSB? There's no way Black could predict that and Hit wouldn't be so kind to wait for Black to go back into SSR like he was with Goku. Also Black would likely make the same mistake in assuming Hit can't stay in the pocket dimension/be intangible and attack at the same time and Hit could use that opening to attack send a shockwave into Black's heart while Black is attacking his intangible self/projection like how he surprised Goku with a shockwave uppercut as Goku was punching at his projection.

There are so much more ways for Hit to win here than Black as his abilities are more versatile and deadly. Easiest of all Hit could just use timeskip and then put a shockwave into Black's heart while he's frozen. No way to dodge that.

 

[Flame]

Hit boy