Tao Pai Pai (1st appearence) vs Yamcha (22nd Budokai)
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I'll say Yamucha.
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Y'know, part of me likes to believe the Uranai Baba arc was retconed, then everything would make sense.
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I don't know. Goku could already look at Tenshinhan's abilities some-what & was like it could go either-way & called them both really good IIRC. Tao got owned by a lower Goku.
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Goku was the one who defeated Tao, not Yamcha. Tien thought Yamcha was the best in the turtle school, and Tsuru is the only one insisting it’s a fluke.
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Yeah, but even if Then thought he was the better, that was a possibility thought by him. If he knew Tao was defeated, I don't think he'd cling onto the possibility of it being absolutely a fluke if Yamcha being the strongest hadn't been solidified yet, since it was the taste he had from Kame's school abilities. And after Goku defeats Kuririn, Tsuru says " NOW I see how Tao was defeated"... seems a very on point quote about Tao being > Kuririn.
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There is also that Tao can not sink lower. He decided to throw-away his "pride" & pretend to apologize & then throw a grenade.
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But Tenshinhan isn’t that incredulous. Only Tsuru is. He gets hyped to see Goku’s true power.
On Goku vs Kuririn, it’s as you said before: Roshi says this fight is a showcase of Goku’s ever-growing abilities. It doesn’t help that you’re using Viz, and in Herms there’s no “NOW” in Tsuru’s line.
Tsuru is evaluating this fight as a whole. Even with the Viz line it’s possible - “Now [that I’ve seen his power]” in contrast to just the little tease he used against Pamput earlier. Herms’ “might” sounds confusing, but I guess it’s no different than Karin saying Goku “might” have surpassed Roshi. Just a pointless figure of speech.
Right. Master Roshi says Goku’s only weakness is that he’s too gullible… which falls in line with Goku almost getting grenade’d.
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What if Tenshinhan actually has no idea how powerful Tao actually was? Tenshinhan outstripped him by a massive margin and yet still held him in reverence as some unbeatable god. Maybe Tenshinhan only trained with him when he was young and never had a good grasp on how strong Tao was.
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Tsuru does though and Tsuru didn't think much of Yamcha. I just can't see how Tao is weaker than Kuririn/Yamcha/Chaozu with the level of respect he was treated, Tsuru was literally going to kill Chaozu very easily and the anime implied that Pre-Cyborg Tao and Tsuru were around the same level if I remember right.
Could anyone properly gauge chi levels back then? No.
Could anyone remember how strong or fast Goku had been 3 years earlier, when they had seen him just once in action? No.
Do we have any reason to believe Goku made any massive gains by roaming around the world? No.
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If they can’t gauge each other, then I don’t think Tsuru really knew how strong Yamcha was.
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The theory would be Goku not going all out vs Son Gohan and using a kind of match level... And only displaying his post Karin level when defeating Kuririn, which couples with Tsuru saying "now I see how Tao was defeated"... There all of the team never knew the true level of power Goku post Karin indeed had.
Ofc it's a theory and it could be said right there Goku didn't ise FP vs Gohan. It likely would be said. But Idk, the Tsuru acknowledgement of Goku > Tao after Kuririn's defeat as well as Roshi saying Goku may have surpassed him already at the same moment gives a real vibe of Tao ~ 22nd Budokai Roshi. And there's also Goku stating "now he sees Tenshinhan wants to kill him, then he will go all out". He knew Tao wnated to kill him... The match with Son Gohan was a Budokai match... Once Goku had his tail taken off, he changed expressions and said "now I'm mad!!" and Gohan gave up, so maybe Goku would show more of his "defeating Tao's power there", plus Gohan said he was "absolutely no match vs Goku", while the fight seemed even until Goku used the KMHMH, so maybe Gohan realized Goku had power to spare.
I just find it hard to get around Tenshinhan ans Tsuru saying it was sheer luck Tao was defeated by one of Kame students when Ten and Tsuru saw right then Yamcha's powers. I used to think Chappa was indeed >> Tao, but with all the focus Tao got later on, I already think of Tao >> Kuririn and Yamcha a likely scenario the narrative was pushing there... Even more with the power Goku using to defeat Kuririn being the nail in the coffin for Tsuru to acknowledge and finally see how his borther could indeed have been defeated. I think the narrative leaned heavily towards that.
Like:
Goku (21st Budokai) 20
-- vs Blue 22
Mummy 22
Akkuman 26
Son Gohan 33
Goku (vs Gohan) 34
Chappa 34
Chaozu 38
Yamcha 39
Kuririn 40
Tsuru 45
Kame-Sennin 50
Tao Pai Pai 50
Goku (true power post Karin, full match level vs Kuririn) 55
Tenshinhan 64
Goku (battle level) 66
Tambourine 55
Yajirobe 60
Drum 75
Less than half old Piccolo : 82
-- 100% : 166
Young Piccolo : 225
Goku (post water) : 228
Goku would have gotten overall a 1.2x boost training for the Budokai which seems puny, but who knows, maybe he developed other things like fight awareness, instinct, knowledge like when he outsmarted and surprised Ten many times in the fight
23rd
Cyborg Tao 150
Yamcha 166
Kuririn 185
Tenshinhan 280 (assuming he was a little suppressed when the scouter read him... He was already more knowledgeable in chi than the others and it also helps putting more of a distance between him and Kuririn at the EoZ when the gap at the 23rd was implied as pretty big. Kuririn said Tenshinhan "wasn't normal" when watching him fight Goku. And he was even in power with weighted Goku in the 23rd, so since weighted Goku was read as 334, his FP at the start of Z approaches that level, like being 320 or so. Assuming things yeah)
Goku (weighted)
--- speed 228
--- power 290
-- no weights 375
Mr. Popo 340
Kami-Sama 480
Piccolo (initial) 185
-- more serious vs Kuririn 225
-- vs Shen 480
-- FP 690
Goku (FP) 700
--- Super KMHMH 910
Piccolo Bakuritsumaha 1,000
It's a mix of a scouter list with some potential liberties in regards to Radtiz scouter reading on them... Which also accounts for the theory Tao was a big deal in the 22nd Budokai.
Does it look that bad?
Ofc it's a theory and it could be said right there Goku didn't ise FP vs Gohan. It likely would be said. But Idk, the Tsuru acknowledgement of Goku > Tao after Kuririn's defeat as well as Roshi saying Goku may have surpassed him already at the same moment gives a real vibe of Tao ~ 22nd Budokai Roshi. And there's also Goku stating "now he sees Tenshinhan wants to kill him, then he will go all out". He knew Tao wnated to kill him... The match with Son Gohan was a Budokai match... Once Goku had his tail taken off, he changed expressions and said "now I'm mad!!" and Gohan gave up, so maybe Goku would show more of his "defeating Tao's power there", plus Gohan said he was "absolutely no match vs Goku", while the fight seemed even until Goku used the KMHMH, so maybe Gohan realized Goku had power to spare.
I just find it hard to get around Tenshinhan ans Tsuru saying it was sheer luck Tao was defeated by one of Kame students when Ten and Tsuru saw right then Yamcha's powers. I used to think Chappa was indeed >> Tao, but with all the focus Tao got later on, I already think of Tao >> Kuririn and Yamcha a likely scenario the narrative was pushing there... Even more with the power Goku using to defeat Kuririn being the nail in the coffin for Tsuru to acknowledge and finally see how his borther could indeed have been defeated. I think the narrative leaned heavily towards that.
Like:
Goku (21st Budokai) 20
-- vs Blue 22
Mummy 22
Akkuman 26
Son Gohan 33
Goku (vs Gohan) 34
Chappa 34
Chaozu 38
Yamcha 39
Kuririn 40
Tsuru 45
Kame-Sennin 50
Tao Pai Pai 50
Goku (true power post Karin, full match level vs Kuririn) 55
Tenshinhan 64
Goku (battle level) 66
Tambourine 55
Yajirobe 60
Drum 75
Less than half old Piccolo : 82
-- 100% : 166
Young Piccolo : 225
Goku (post water) : 228
Goku would have gotten overall a 1.2x boost training for the Budokai which seems puny, but who knows, maybe he developed other things like fight awareness, instinct, knowledge like when he outsmarted and surprised Ten many times in the fight
23rd
Cyborg Tao 150
Yamcha 166
Kuririn 185
Tenshinhan 280 (assuming he was a little suppressed when the scouter read him... He was already more knowledgeable in chi than the others and it also helps putting more of a distance between him and Kuririn at the EoZ when the gap at the 23rd was implied as pretty big. Kuririn said Tenshinhan "wasn't normal" when watching him fight Goku. And he was even in power with weighted Goku in the 23rd, so since weighted Goku was read as 334, his FP at the start of Z approaches that level, like being 320 or so. Assuming things yeah)
Goku (weighted)
--- speed 228
--- power 290
-- no weights 375
Mr. Popo 340
Kami-Sama 480
Piccolo (initial) 185
-- more serious vs Kuririn 225
-- vs Shen 480
-- FP 690
Goku (FP) 700
--- Super KMHMH 910
Piccolo Bakuritsumaha 1,000
It's a mix of a scouter list with some potential liberties in regards to Radtiz scouter reading on them... Which also accounts for the theory Tao was a big deal in the 22nd Budokai.
Does it look that bad?
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Tsuru was simply in denial. He already acknowledged that Goku could have beaten Tao after he beat Panputto. Seeing Goku's match level only confirmed what he had already thought beforehand. You're reading so much into that second statement from Tsuru when it has no implication on how easily Goku defeated Tao, only that he was defeated. The level against Panputto was already established to be good enough.
You could see based on Tsuru and Tenshinhan's reaction to Goku claiming to have beaten Tao that they were being clouded heavily by their emotions. Tenshinhan became enraged immediately. They revered Tao as the best and weren't using common sense.
None of the fight against Son Gohan indicated that Goku was holding back such a massive amount of power. There's no way to explain that.
You could see based on Tsuru and Tenshinhan's reaction to Goku claiming to have beaten Tao that they were being clouded heavily by their emotions. Tenshinhan became enraged immediately. They revered Tao as the best and weren't using common sense.
None of the fight against Son Gohan indicated that Goku was holding back such a massive amount of power. There's no way to explain that.
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They were ready, that's all. Roshi, a member of the old guard, is the one who says all of those things, but only Goku and Tenshinhan surpassed him. On the other hand, it's weird to make a big deal out of Tao being bested when he'd just beaten another Kame-sennin student who could've done it too.
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kyouks playing devil’s advocate
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Doubt it. The guy trained him and Tsuru says he was in contact with Tao up to his “death”.
Them being emotional sounds reasonable, but it also rubs me the wrong way. Kinda feels like a cop out, you know? Like people who dismiss everything Vegeta says because he’s arrogant.
@ahill1 I think it’s best to ignore Piccolo’s “les than 50% line”. It just ends up being a lot of precious space wasted for no good reason. Has to be an hyperbole, or a reference to his prime power.
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