The Fundamental Problems with Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego as the Signature Forms of Goku and Vegeta.

[最強のフュージョン]

All the time I see praise leveled at these forms for their contributions to Goku and Vegeta as characters, but I just don't get it. On the surface, sure, Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego are cool, but they feel like they are fundamentally in opposition to who Goku and Vegeta are as characters, or rather who they should be by this point.

Now, maybe I'm missing something with Ultra Instinct in particular, but I just don't get how Goku can stand to use a form that takes agency away from him. Goku loves to immersed in battle, yet Ultra Instinct forces him to take a passive role, relying on maintaining the right state of mind so his body reacts optimally for him. Now this sorta "drawback" could be used to great effect to comment on Goku's character, but it never is. Goku is just content using this form and tries his best to maximize its efficiency without considering its opposition Goku's nature as a martial artist.

The same problem applies to Ultra Ego. Sure, if you're a passive enjoyer of Dragon Ball or someone who grew up with it and have this idea of Vegeta as a prideful, arrogant, sadist that never really grew beyond that, sure, Ultra Ego makes perfect sense for his character, but that's the thing. You have to ignore all the development he's undergone for this form to work. This idea that Vegeta would be willing to sacrifice that development for a power up is ridiculous to me, especially considering his attempt to gain power through Bobbidi. I just don't buy he'd be willing to sacrifice aspects of himself to get stronger at this point in his life.

Both of these forms just feel like the writers wanted a new power up that was different than what had come before without considering how the mechanics of these forms would apply to these characters. Like, I don't think Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego are bad transformations in and of themselves, they just don't feel appropriate for Goku and Vegeta.

 

[Papasmurf]

Eh, I wouldn't read into it that much. Goku's always been one to relish in reaching new levels of power and breaking his limits, and his masters have been stressing the importance of eliminating unnecessary movement all the way back to Karin and Popo. Vegeta also said in the Granolah arc (as terribad as the arc was) that he was happy to be in his happy place, without the burdens of protecting stuff. It isn't any better or worse than how he unlocked Controlled Berserk Blue in Heroes, even though I think Heroes is one big fanservice-ridden mess.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

I vehemently disagree in regards to SSGSS Berserk. It's pretty much the only form in the whole of modern Dragon Ball that felt actually worked for his character. Overcoming opposition through embracing the man he's become and declaring that passion for fighting and self improvement are what define a Saiyan as opposed to evil is far more narratively satisfying than "I'll forgo everything I've come to stand for to gain access to a jobber power up". It's especially insulting when he criticized Toppo for doing the same thing, lol.

In regards to Goku, eliminating unnecessary movement isn't the same as removing the need to consciously make movements. Remember, Whis describes Ultra Instinct as severing the link between consciousness and body.

 

[Papasmurf]

In regards to Goku, eliminating unnecessary movement isn't the same as removing the need to consciously make movements. Remember, Whis describes Ultra Instinct as severing the link between consciousness and body.

But the idea of emptying one's mind is a common martial arts mastery trope, and one stressed by Popo. That plus how all of his masters have stressed the importance of doing the bare minimum movement possible to eliminate unnecessary stamina loss (both are things Goku himself attempted with Grade 4's calmness and superior stamina) makes it an alright power up imo. It's also one of the things Super actually properly foreshadowed as early as the RoF arc.

I vehemently disagree in regards to SSGSS Berserk. It's especially insulting when he criticized Toppo for doing the same thing, lol.

That criticism was anime-only and Ultra Ego representing Vegeta's goal of evolving in his own way through a form that isn't inferior to even UI Sign like Blue Evolution gives it enough symbolism imo. Maybe Vegeta letting go of things he has to protect isn't fitting of his character arc since the end of the CG (it's also worth noting that Trunks and Bulma were not around), but him embracing the Saiyans' pride and will to fight upon seeing Bardock's history with Gas gave the form (which he couldn't properly use against Granolah) some measure of room for character growth. It was also unique in that unlike the rest of Vegeta's ascended transformations, it wasn't just a beefed up version of a previous form a la G2, SSJ2, Blue Evolution and so on and so forth. I'd also have given it points for symbolizing the battle-hungry, destructive nature of the Saiyans that Granolah despised so much and adding further conflict had that been actually fleshed out as a proper contrast, but that went down the shitter fast. I'll grant you that one.

 

[Future Warrior]

I prefer these forms way better than SSJB, conceptually at least. It’s just that they were completely botched by crackhead writers.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

But the idea of emptying one's mind is a common martial arts mastery trope, and one stressed by Popo. That plus how all of his masters have stressed the importance of doing the bare minimum movement possible to eliminate unnecessary stamina loss (both are things Goku himself attempted with Grade 4's calmness and superior stamina) makes it an alright power up imo. It's also one of the things Super actually properly foreshadowed as early as the RoF arc.



That criticism was anime-only and Ultra Ego representing Vegeta's goal of evolving in his own way through a form that isn't inferior to even UI Sign like Blue Evolution gives it enough symbolism imo. Maybe Vegeta letting go of things he has to protect isn't fitting of his character arc since the end of the CG (it's also worth noting that Trunks and Bulma were not around), but him embracing the Saiyans' pride and will to fight upon seeing Bardock's history with Gas gave the form (which he couldn't properly use against Granolah) some measure of room for character growth. It was also unique in that unlike the rest of Vegeta's ascended transformations, it wasn't just a beefed up version of a previous form a la G2, SSJ2, Blue Evolution and so on and so forth. I'd also have given it points for symbolizing the battle-hungry, destructive nature of the Saiyans that Granolah despised so much and adding further conflict had that been actually fleshed out as a proper contrast, but that went down the shitter fast. I'll grant you that one.

Except if you know anything about the creation of Ultra Instinct, Whis's line wasn't foreshadowing anything. The anime staff pestered Toriyama about creating a transformation for the ToP because they wanted the anime to end with a bang. It wasn't planned at all. Again, Ultra Instinct is taking this trope to an extreme where Goku's own input is sidelined. There's a pretty big difference between minimizing unnecessary movement to erasing a need for your own input.

That doesn't matter. They're the same character. I expect consistency across the board for Vegeta's character. What character growth? The fact that Vegeta has to be reminded of the pride of the Saiyans by fucking Minus Bardock of all characters is frankly insulting. Regressing Vegeta to have him develop right back to where he was is not character growth. It is stagnation. Worse than stagnation in fact.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Do you think that, conceptually, True UI was the direction to go for Goku? The way you described Goku here reminded me of how TUI works.

Same for UE. The Granolah Arc tried to hint he’d take his own way after experimenting the form and realizing he doesn’t have what it takes. We have yet to see what that means though (if we ever will).

 

[Papasmurf]

Except if you know anything about the creation of Ultra Instinct, Whis's line wasn't foreshadowing anything. The anime staff pestered Toriyama about creating a transformation for the ToP because they wanted the anime to end with a bang. It wasn't planned at all. Again, Ultra Instinct is taking this trope to an extreme where Goku's own input is sidelined. There's a pretty big difference between minimizing unnecessary movement to erasing a need for your own input.

That's not in-world writing, that's behind the scenes production stuff. Whis' line indicated that such a technique existed, which makes it as much foreshadowing as Android #20 stating he isn't Dr. Gero, which would've been the case had he been the main villain who killed Gero as Trunks stated before the main villains got retconned to #17 and #18 (and then Cell). Instead we got 20 being Gero, and him vehemently denying it to avoid Piccolo gaining unnecessary information. Another example is when #17 was wondering why Gero went back to his cybernetic design for the androids despite being able to make perfectly mechanical ones with infinite energy, which worked as foreshadowing for Cell's fusion with the two cyborgs even though Perfect Cell hadn't yet been conceived as a character at the time.

MUI eliminating faulty movement and slower reaction time as well as improving the stamina issues of -Sign- also works with Goku's whole schtick of constantly mastering or discarding previously draining forms to improve his stamina and efficacy. UI isn't a bad power up, it just sucks as a design because... It's just Goku with bed hair and silver hair dye.

That doesn't matter. They're the same character. I expect consistency across the board for Vegeta's character. What character growth? The fact that Vegeta has to be reminded of the pride of the Saiyans by fucking Minus Bardock of all characters is frankly insulting. Regressing Vegeta to have him develop right back to where he was is not character growth. It is stagnation. Worse than stagnation in fact.

Granolah arc Bardock wasn't AS shitty as Minus Bardock, he showed the same tenacity as his Toei counterpart and had a good heart despite his Saiyan savagery. Inferior to the TV Special self he may be, him reminding Goku and Vegeta of Saiyan pride not necessarily being tied with being a violent savage isn't too bad writing. Vegeta also showed signs of lamenting the sins of the Saiyan race just before he learned UE, a sentiment he carried in the Moro arc as well (which I also think was a shit arc, but that's another can of worms), so him realizing the sins of the Saiyans don't define Saiyan pride isn't shit tier writing. A better example of stagnation is when Goku forgot the principles of UI and tried to buff it up even though he knows how inefficient bulky power ups are and that damaging his body for a power up was a mistake as seen with his attempt to use Kaio-ken in the ToP arc.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’d take Minus Bardock over Granolah Bardock any day. One thing is saving your offspring as an act of defiance, another is going out of his way to save people he was sent to kill. Minus you could at least pretend he wasn’t a pussy.

I remember a scene when Bardock says he has no idea of why he’s fighting Gas. That about sums up his role in this saga.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

That's not in-world writing, that's behind the scenes production stuff. Whis' line indicated that such a technique existed, which makes it as much foreshadowing as Android #20 stating he isn't Dr. Gero, which would've been the case had he been the main villain who killed Gero as Trunks stated before the main villains got retconned to #17 and #18 (and then Cell). Instead we got 20 being Gero, and him vehemently denying it to avoid Piccolo gaining unnecessary information. Another example is when #17 was wondering why Gero went back to his cybernetic design for the androids despite being able to make perfectly mechanical ones with infinite energy, which worked as foreshadowing for Cell's fusion with the two cyborgs even though Perfect Cell hadn't yet been conceived as a character at the time.

MUI eliminating faulty movement and slower reaction time as well as improving the stamina issues of -Sign- also works with Goku's whole schtick of constantly mastering or discarding previously draining forms to improve his stamina and efficacy. UI isn't a bad power up, it just sucks as a design because... It's just Goku with bed hair and silver hair dye.

Granolah arc Bardock wasn't AS shitty as Minus Bardock, he showed the same tenacity as his Toei counterpart and had a good heart despite his Saiyan savagery. Inferior to the TV Special self he may be, him reminding Goku and Vegeta of Saiyan pride not necessarily being tied with being a violent savage isn't too bad writing. Vegeta also showed signs of lamenting the sins of the Saiyan race just before he learned UE, a sentiment he carried in the Moro arc as well (which I also think was a shit arc, but that's another can of worms), so him realizing the sins of the Saiyans don't define Saiyan pride isn't shit tier writing. A better example of stagnation is when Goku forgot the principles of UI and tried to buff it up even though he knows how inefficient bulky power ups are and that damaging his body for a power up was a mistake as seen with his attempt to use Kaio-ken in the ToP arc.

Doesn't matter if it's in world or not. Foreshadowing requires intent and Ultra Instinct wasn't intentional. It was slap dash and uses Whis's throw away line as an excuse for its existence.

I agree that Ultra Instinct isn't a bad power up, it just doesn't suit Goku as he's sacrificing his own input, which should bother him. "True" Ultra Instinct is a good idea in theory, but was completely botched in execution. Goku being unable to truly use the full might of Ultra Instinct and developing his own style sounds great, but they instead made it so Ultra Instinct is still the best one and that Goku wasn't able to use Ultra Instinct's full power in the Granola arc because reasons even though he was able to do it against Moro.

No, he is just as bad, worse in fact. Sparing Monaito cuz he just feels like it after being attacked is nonsense. Bardock sparing Granola and his mom because his son was just born is nonsense. Bardock, buddy, you just killed hundreds of moms with children. Why stop there? There is no actual rhyme or reason for what he does. The writers need these characters to live at certain points so they undermine Bardock's character to do it. The problems with Minus Bardock persist in Granola arc Bardock. It's made especially worse when we have Vegeta flat out state that he got his softheartedness from his father.

No, Bardock having to remind Vegeta of all characters with the pride of his people means is inane, terrible, horrible, very bad, no good writing. The Granola arc in my opinion is the worst arc in all of Dragon Ball in part because of what it did with Bardock and to a lesser extent, Vegeta. Nevermind all the retroactively ruinous decisions like making it so you can wish to be the strongest, paring Monaito's Dragon Balls down to 2 and giving them no recharge time, or making it so all of Goku's exploits up to adulthood were a complete farce.

 

[Papasmurf]

Doesn't matter if it's in world or not. Foreshadowing requires intent and Ultra Instinct wasn't intentional. It was slap dash and uses Whis's throw away line as an excuse for its existence.

Then you'd have to disregard the existence of a ton of lines retroactively used to justify and lead into later events. An asspull is something like Potara's existence, which definitely wasn't intended until Fusion Reborn was in production. Ultra Instinct isn't an asspull because Whis already alluded to such a technique, regardless of whether UI itself existed conceptually at the moment. Is SSJ2 not the true surpasser of the Super Saiyan because Toriyama clearly didn't conceive it until much later than when Vegeta first suggested surpassing the Super Saiyan may be possible? Is Goku being a Saiyan horrible writing because Toriyama hadn't thought of it until the Saiyan arc, even though multiple characters suggested he may not be an Earthling as early as the Pilaf and Daimao arcs?

I agree that Ultra Instinct isn't a bad power up, it just doesn't suit Goku as he's sacrificing his own input, which should bother him. "True" Ultra Instinct is a good idea in theory, but was completely botched in execution. Goku being unable to truly use the full might of Ultra Instinct and developing his own style sounds great, but they instead made it so Ultra Instinct is still the best one and that Goku wasn't able to use Ultra Instinct's full power in the Granola arc because reasons even though he was able to do it against Moro.

I agree with TUI being terrible and a complete asspull with no prior indication of such a thing being possible, I just disagree that UI is unsuited for Goku because all of his masters have taught him to hone his movement and mastery of martial arts. You're frankly taking the idea of Goku's "agency" too far and insisting it's the only thing that matters for Goku's whole desire to improve and keep fighting. The only reason why UI was executed terribly is because Roshi of all fucking people having superior fighting skills to Goku (when he almost tied a 12 year old Goku) and reminding him of things he learned long ago was horrendous.

No, he is just as bad, worse in fact. Sparing Monaito cuz he just feels like it after being attacked is nonsense. Bardock sparing Granola and his mom because his son was just born is nonsense. Bardock, buddy, you just killed hundreds of moms with children. Why stop there? There is no actual rhyme or reason for what he does. The writers need these characters to live at certain points so they undermine Bardock's character to do it. The problems with Minus Bardock persist in Granola arc Bardock. It's made especially worse when we have Vegeta flat out state that he got his softheartedness from his father.

Bardock was already suggested to be growing soft in the Broly movie and in Minus where he said Gine softened him up and that he spared Kakarrot on a whim despite him being a low-class that is basically worthless in Saiyan society. Bardock's always had traces of good in him, including even his rougher self from the TV special.

No, Bardock having to remind Vegeta of all characters with the pride of his people means is inane, terrible, horrible, very bad, no good writing. The Granola arc in my opinion is the worst arc in all of Dragon Ball in part because of what it did with Bardock and to a lesser extent, Vegeta. Nevermind all the retroactively ruinous decisions like making it so you can wish to be the strongest, paring Monaito's Dragon Balls down to 2 and giving them no recharge time, or making it so all of Goku's exploits up to adulthood were a complete farce.

I agree the whole arc is awful and terrible, I just don't think Bardock having sentimental qualities is terrible writing because both Minus and the Broly movie (both canon to Super) show that he was growing softer due to Gine's influence, and that he had learned to spare people he would've otherwise deemed worthless like Kakarrot. What makes me hate the Granolah arc are all the inane, unearned power ups (Which lead to a repetitive cycle of post-power up turnarounds) and the most inferior set of Dragon Balls granting UE+ tier power just by shortening one's lifespan rather than the much more logical method of gathering the Super Dragon Balls and allowing the caster to wish upon them for a potential unlock.

There was already no recharge time for the Ultimate Dragon Balls in GT, too. That part was already present in another Dragon Ball continuity. You could just argue that Kami and Master Molester Guru set up their DBs to have recharge times to avoid blaspheming Nature, or to lessen the possibility of buildup of negative energy if following GT's expansion to Dragon Balls lore.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

Again, the problem is the extreme. There is little to no room for input on Goku's part. It just doesn't make sense that Goku would be okay with that.

The whole problem is Bardock being softer. It completely undermines the themes of the Saiyan arc for Bardock to be like Goku. That in and of itself makes Minus and anything to do with it by extension a problem.

There being no recharge time for the Black-Star Dragon Balls isn't a problem because there are 7 spread throughout the universe. There being only 2 balls with no recharge is a HUGE problem because all one would need to do is jump up and grab both balls like Goku did for the 4-Star ball in the Red Ribbon arc.

 

[Papasmurf]

Again, the problem is the extreme. There is little to no room for input on Goku's part. It just doesn't make sense that Goku would be okay with that.

I think that's why Whis suggested Goku master his own version of UI, just that the payoff is terrible just like with him completing SSJB through a major asspull. Even if it robs Goku of "agency," it's still the culmination of all of his martial arts training that gave him mastery of movement and the emptying of superfluous thoughts and emotions that dragged him down.

The whole problem is Bardock being softer. It completely undermines the themes of the Saiyan arc for Bardock to be like Goku. That in and of itself makes Minus and anything to do with it by extension a problem.

But we see that Saiyans are capable of change, and that they're not psychopathic (incapable of remorse or emotional attachment). We have an explanation that his association with Gine made him have empathy and emotional attachment to others.

There being no recharge time for the Black-Star Dragon Balls isn't a problem because there are 7 spread throughout the universe. There being only 2 balls with no recharge is a HUGE problem because all one would need to do is jump up and grab both balls like Goku did for the 4-Star ball in the Red Ribbon arc.

Spoiler

Yeah I don't really give a shit about that because it was stated Kami can just reactivate the DBs on a whim without the charge time:

Convenient it may be, but it's definitely not a plot hole. Also Dragon Balls take a few seconds to scatter so the BSDBs scattering across the universe is irrelevant if one is simply fast enough to grab all seven, or has psychic abilities like basically all deities and many aliens. So that problem also applies to the BSDBs, just on a larger scale. The DBs are meant to take decades to gather without a radar anyway.

 

[Future Warrior]

But we see that Saiyans are capable of change, and that they're not psychopathic (incapable of remorse or emotional attachment). We have an explanation that his association with Gine made him have empathy and emotional attachment to others.

It’s not a story inconsistency but it still heavily undermines the themes of that arc and the personal growth of the protagonist.

 

[Papasmurf]

It’s not a story inconsistency but it still heavily undermines the themes of that arc and the personal growth of the protagonist.

Super always has bad character writing so I've grown benumbed to it at this point. So Bardock having empathy didn't really bother me.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

I don't have a problem with Saiyans being capable of change, but Goku is supposed to be an exception to the rule by the Saiyan arc otherwise Vegeta's whole speech is thematically meaningless.

Right, but coupling that with the ability to grant the user more strength by sacrificing life, all one would need do is wish for immortality and then wish for unlimited strength. These problems pile on and were not considered before their creation. It's basically ruined the Dragon Balls going forward.

 

[Papasmurf]

I don't have a problem with Saiyans being capable of change, but Goku is supposed to be an exception to the rule by the Saiyan arc otherwise Vegeta's whole speech is thematically meaningless.

We know Bardock was born like most other Saiyans though since he was stated to have softened up, not been born gentle like Broly or Tarble. Also Vegeta has no knowledge of Bardock and we know soft Saiyans existed before as per the 6 righteous Saiyans being needed for the God ritual so yeah...

Right, but coupling that with the ability to grant the user more strength by sacrificing life, all one would need do is wish for immortality and then wish for unlimited strength. These problems pile on and were not considered before their creation. It's basically ruined the Dragon Balls going forward.

No disagreement with you there, I just disagree it's a plot hole or something similar since having no recharge time is something a creator can obviously decide on his own. Monaito likely didn't intend for the DBs to be abused that way, and I conceded it would've been FAR better for the DBs to just be wished to bring the Super DBs to the location of the wisher rather than far smaller DBs being OP. So I do think the Cerealian DBs were ass and overly convenient, just not PLOT-breaking since there is no contradiction.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It's also very weird that Raditz was just the black sheep of the family.

I think you're taking the "body moves on it's own" too literally though TPoS. In all fights it's always been clear Goku is the one fighting and making decisions. He's going purely on instinct (thus the name) without thinking about his movements. A better criticism would be that the form comes down to "that thing Popo said once but better" or how the form still comes down to a power level boost despite this concept.

 

[Papasmurf]

It's also very weird that Raditz was just the black sheep of the family.

I think you're taking the "body moves on it's own" too literally though TPoS. In all fights it's always been clear Goku is the one fighting and making decisions. He's going purely on instinct (thus the name) without thinking about his movements. A better criticism would be that the form comes down to "that thing Popo said once but better" or how the form still comes down to a power level boost despite this concept.

Yeah I'd definitely have preferred if UI had the same PL as SSJB Kaio-ken and it just added the bonus of making his movements extremely efficient. A movement technique making you incalculably stronger made no sense to me, even if the anime played it off as "Goku shattering his limits" and all that bluster.

 

[Future Warrior]

This line just doesn't hit the same.