The gap between Goku SSJ (Mecha saga) and Piccolo (Androids saga/pre Kami)

[ahill1]

@Zoro

Cell only noted Vegeta and noted his chi is bigger than he thought and hid behind the tree, saying it's better him hurry up. This doesn't necessarily imply Vegeta was close to him, it only means he could not finish him quickly enough so Kamiccolo could not track him, that is, this is not a one-shot gap, but, like I said, Cell running away doesn't have to mean the gap is pretty small either.

Kamiccolo weighted should be on #18's level, meaning #18 should be able to handle Cell with the same ease Kamiccolo did. If #18 is able to handle a foe stronger than Vegeta without problems, than he should be way ahead of Vegeta.

Vegeta is absolutely dumbfounded how strong Piccolo had become when he fused with Kami, even before he sees kamiccolo's full power. If 17 and Kamiccolo are close in strength, then 18 would be quite above Vegeta.

 

[SSJ2]

Alright, this seems to be going nowhere, so I'm just going to explain my levels and why they work.

Spoiler

Android 18: 937,500,000

Android 17: 1,000,000,000

Kamiccolo: 1,050,000,000
-Weighted: 965,000,000

SSJ Vegeta: 750,000,000

Imperfect Cell: 800,000,000

[*]18 is 1.25x stronger than Vegeta. That is powerful enough for her to one shot him and Trunks individually, while also being able to take on Trunks and Vegeta at once. Zarbon and Dodoria only require a maximum 1.2x gap to take on Vegeta who is 24k, so Trunks and Vegeta fall outside of this gap. Throw Piccolo into the mix, and the three of them can take on 18 as 17 said.

[*]Weighted Piccolo is a rival to both 17 and 18. Piccolo FP is equal to 17.

[*]Weighted Piccolo is 1.2x stronger than Imperfect Cell, enough to stomp him.

[*]Imperfect Cell does not rival 18.

[*]Imperfect Cell rivals Vegeta. It's a tight gap which can be implied by Cell needing to hurry up. What you countered with is not factual whatsoever. Sure, Cell could be worried by Piccolo catching up or whatnot, but if he falls outside of a 1.1x gap of Vegeta, he should no longer be considered a rival. At that point he can deal with Vegeta really quickly if need be by absorbing him. Piccolo would not have time to catch up, and Cell would have enough of a lead on Vegeta to overpower him. Since Cell decides not to absorb Vegeta, it can be assumed that he's not strong enough to overpower him in close quarters. The gap can be small.

I really encourage you to point out inconsistencies here, because I see none.

 

[ahill1]

Imperfect Cell rivals Vegeta. It's a tight gap which can be implied by Cell needing to hurry up. What you countered with is no factual whatsoever. Sure, Cell could be worried by Piccolo catching up or whatnot, but if he falls outside of a 1.1x gap of Vegeta, he should no longer be considered a rival. At that point he can deal with Vegeta really quickly if need be by absorbing him quickly. Piccolo would not have time to catch up, and Cell would have enough of a lead on Vegeta to overpower him. Since Cell decides not to absorb Vegeta, it can be assumed that he's not strong enough to overpower him in close quarters. The gap can be small.

That's the "problem" I see. Cell running away doesn't have to imply Vegeta was pretty close to him, as you have. It only implies Cell cannot beat Vegeta quickly enough without Kamiccolo reaching to him. Kamiccolo would notice the change on his ki and would quickly catch him, even more when Vegeta quickly arrived where Kamiccolo was. Cell could be 1.2x stronger than Vegeta and yet not be able to beat that fast. Being able to beat someone at such a gap is a bit arbitrary, even more when Son Goku Kkx3 could not finish Vegeta that quickly, despite having a 1.33x lead over him, or Recoome (you could argue he was toying) not being able to beat Vegeta that fast, despite having a decent lead over him. Vegeta happens to be pretty resilient (more so than his power level suggests IMO).

I'd like to have Cell at least 1.1x stronger than SSJ Vegeta (I actually have him 1.15x stronger).

 

[SSJ2]

That's where we disagree, and strongly at that. At a gap of 1.2x it's undeniable that you can at the very least overpower your foe. Why would Cell not knock Vegeta down and absorb him before he could counter? It doesn't seem hard to me.

And I'm also not arguing that my way is the way it has to be, just that it's an option, so I don't get why it's such a problem to you.

 

[Kyo]

I don't really think it's fair to take KKx3 Goku vs Vegeta as an example given the strain KK places on the user, as well as the fact that it works in bursts. I imagine it'd be a lot harder to finish someone off efficiently like that.

Vegeta vs Dodoria is more telling. Dodoria did run but that doesn't really change the fact that Vegeta vaporized him with a blast. Even if Dodoria fought, what can he do with a disadvantage like that? Vegeta also had a pretty easy time overwhelming Handsome Zarbon in hand-to-hand combat, who wasn't even scared or unconfident like Dodoria, which should tell you that just by scaling up, an advantage of 1.33x should put away an opponent pretty quickly if you actually tried (more often than not, people just don't try). Like Q said, Cell wouldn't even need to kill Vegeta either.

 

[ahill1]

That's where we disagree, and strongly at that. At a gap of 1.2x it's undeniable that you can at the very least overpower your foe. Why would Cell not knock Vegeta down and absorb him before he could counter? It doesn't seem hard to me.

And I'm also not arguing that my way is the way it has to be, just that it's an option, so I don't get why it's such a problem to you.

It's not such a problem to me, I'm only arguing lol. I like to argue power gaps.

Look at how quickly Vegeta arrived at where Kamiccolo was:

Spoiler

He was on his way, following that absurdly large ki. Next page:

Spoiler

^He was already at where Kamiccolo was... It was really quick. Kamiccolo, who is even faster than Vegeta, could catch up to Cell really fast, me think. So, I only think Cell could not finish Vegeta that fast, without Kamiccolo reaching him. Sure, 1.2x gap is within the stomp range (like Vegeta vs Dodoria), but I think Vegeta is more resilient/durable and he blasted Dodoria from the back, what could have made a difference too imo.

 

[SSJ2]

You're making the assumption that Piccolo would be paying attention to Vegeta's ki. Nobody even knew he was on his way there, let alone paying attention to his level of ki at the time.

 

[ahill1]

I don't really think it's fair to take KKx3 Goku vs Vegeta as an example given the strain KK places on the user, as well as the fact that it works in bursts. I imagine it'd be a lot harder to finish someone off efficiently like that.

Vegeta vs Dodoria is more telling. Dodoria did run but that doesn't really change the fact that Vegeta vaporized him with a blast. Even if Dodoria fought, what can he do with a disadvantage like that? Vegeta also had a pretty easy time overwhelming Handsome Zarbon in hand-to-hand combat, who wasn't even scared or unconfident like Dodoria, which should tell you that just by scaling up, an advantage of 1.33x should put away an opponent pretty quickly if you actually tried (more often than not, people just don't try). Like Q said, Cell wouldn't even need to kill Vegeta either.

Do you think Goku's Kkx3 was <24,000 like at 21,000 (due to Goku being weakened in base)? But even so Vegeta showed resilience surviving at a KHH at Kkx4 (you could argue the clash with the Gyarikku Hō weakened the Kamehameha though). Vegeta was not done that quick by Recoome or #18 either, despite the gap in said fights being >1.2x (imo).

Cell running away after seeing Vegeta could imply SSJ Vegeta's power was relevant to him, yes, but I don't think it has to imply it was pretty close. I have a 1.15x gap between them.

 

[ahill1]

You're making the assumption that Piccolo would be paying attention to Vegeta's ki. Nobody even knew he was on his way there, let alone paying attention to his level of ki at the time.

But Cell would have to increase his ki in order to defeat Vegeta.

 

[SSJ2]

You're making the assumption that Piccolo would be paying attention to Vegeta's ki. Nobody even knew he was on his way there, let alone paying attention to his level of ki at the time.

But Cell would have to increase his ki in order to defeat Vegeta.

That is true.

In any case, it doesn't necessarily have to be about that exact situation. Cell clearly is worried about Vegeta due to his power in general, and could possibly hunt him down at a later time for a large ki boost if he needed to. Yet it never crosses his mind to do this, and he'd rather absorb humans who give him small boosts in power.

 

[ahill1]

You're making the assumption that Piccolo would be paying attention to Vegeta's ki. Nobody even knew he was on his way there, let alone paying attention to his level of ki at the time.

But Cell would have to increase his ki in order to defeat Vegeta.

That is true.

In any case, it doesn't necessarily have to be about that exact situation. Cell clearly is worried about Vegeta due to his power in general, and could possibly hunt him down at a later time for a large ki boost if he needed to. Yet it never crosses his mind to do this, and he'd rather absorb humans who give him small boosts in power.

Yeah, I agree. That scene implies SSJ Vegeta is relevant to Imperfect Cell. Even so I like to have a noticeable gap between them (like 1.1x, 1.15x), he only needs to be stronger than Vegeta SSJ, by how much is up to you. What do you think about weighted Kamiccolo being around #18's power

 

[SSJ2]

Weighted Piccolo equal to 18 doesn't cause problems as long as he also rivals 17. I put him in the middle for simplicity.

 

[ahill1]

Weighted Piccolo equal to 18 doesn't cause problems as long as he also rivals 17. I put him in the middle for simplicity.

I like to have something like this:

Piccolo - 1,150
Trunks - 1,350
Goku - 1,470
Vegeta - 1,500
I.Cell - 1,725
W. Kamiccolo - 2,000
#18 - 2,000
#17 - 2,200
Kamiccolo - 2,300

 

[SSJ2]

That looks decent to me, no complaints.

 

[SSJ2]

Actually how can 18 lose to Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo with that sort of advantage?

 

[ahill1]

Actually how can 18 lose to Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo with that sort of advantage?

Yea, I find that a little weird too. Piccolo is basically a one-shot fodder, while Trunks is not much more than that. Vegeta is getting beat up pretty badly too. Maybe #17 overestimated Trunks and Piccolo? Or fighting 3 against one is really that effective?

I find hard to say 3x1 is that effective since I feel the 3 Ginyus (Butta, Jheese and Recoome) fighting together could not do jack to Goku (~60k).

 

[SSJ2]

That's partially why I have tighter gaps.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks and Piccolo were both fodder to Android 17. Trunks was even thrown into Vegeta and knocked out, but a beaten up, one arm broken Vegeta still got up and went for more. Trunks is much closer to Piccolo than he is to Vegeta. There is also a clear distinction of power between Android 17 and Android 18, so them being fodder to Android 17 doesn't necessarily mean they're are hopeless in comparison to Android 18, whom I highly doubt can take Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo all at the same time.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks and Piccolo were both fodder to Android 17. Trunks was even thrown into Vegeta and knocked out, but a beaten up, one arm broken Vegeta still got up and went for more. Trunks is much closer to Piccolo than he is to Vegeta. There is also a clear distinction of power between Android 17 and Android 18, so them being fodder to Android 17 doesn't necessarily mean they're are hopeless in comparison to Android 18, whom I highly doubt can take Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo all at the same time.

The fight against the Cyborgs doesn't show Vegeta is that stronger than Trunks. The fight was kinda up to interpretation. I'd say statements > feats in that case. Trunks was closer to Vegeta than Piccolo was to Trunks IMO, as the three saiyans were grouped together.

Vegeta - 375,000,000
Goku - 367,500,000
Trunks - 340,000,000
Piccolo - 290,000,000

^That's what I have.

 

[Tapion]

Android 17 is shown to be only a little stronger than Android 18 so if anyone is fodder to 17 that makes them instantly fodder to Android 18.