What's the power difference between Pui and Vegeta?

[FeatsofPower]

Pui Pui would be about as strong as androids saga SSJs and base Vegeta would be in-between android 17 and android 16.

The only problem with this is that Pui Pui >>> Piccolo. Everyone seems to conveniently forget this.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Probably if I did those power levels on other forums and in other places like youtube ppl would call me crazy for placing Pui Pui at androids saga SSJ levels because he made a big deal out of 10x gravity, but those ppl know nothing and can't try to think outside the box a little.

It's an error on the writer's part, he should have put like 100x gravity or something. Also, look at how much Trunks struggled with 150x gravity with a base power on par with the Androids.

This argument is like saying Trunks can't be stronger than Mecha Freeza Saga Base Vegeta because Vegeta was working out in 300x gravity.

See how that can't work? It's the same scenario, the overall evidence points towards something else.

 

[ahill1]

The only problem with this is that Pui Pui >>> Piccolo. Everyone seems to conveniently forget this.

I disagree with this. I've Piccolo fairly close to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs so Pui Pui ain't nearing that.

Pui Pui 330,000,000
Base Goku (boo saga) 750,000,000
Piccolo (boo saga) 3,000,000,000
Shin 4,500,000,000

Sorry feats, but I'm not with you in your scaling interpretations.

 

[ahill1]

I agree with the part on the gravity tho. It can also be said Pui Pui never thought Vegeta had experience with 10G, and it seems the experience someone has is worth a lot in how they will handle the gravity increase. Kid Trunks who blows Goku's namek landing out of the water couldn't deal with 159G because he wasn't used to that... while pre androids Vegeta ordered a 300G. So the level of experience someone has with the gravity counts a lot. But there's a ceiling tho, as SSJ kid Trunks could nullify his lack of experience.

 

[ahill1]

But there's a problem either way. Base Trunks may be androids level, but he struggled with 150G based on his lack of experience. Would he struggle in 10x tho? Doubtful. I don't think so. And Pui Pui, whom I scaled at androids SSJ level, expected someone who was beating his ass, so someone android 18 level at least, to struggle in 10x betting on his lack of experience... lack of experience hindered someone of 18's level to walk in 150x, but 10x is a level wayyyy below, so it still sounds weird either way for Pui Pui to count on 10x affecting someone who he judges isn't used to it, that's like saying kid Trunks would struggle in 10x. So yeah, weird either way, if they used 150x it'd have flown way better.

 

[ahill1]

So if I want to cover for that, for Pui Pui to expect someone >>> him to struggle under 10x the same way Trunks struggled 150x, I can divide my former Pui Pui's placement by 10 or so, assuming there's some level of linearity to gravity levels. That'd place Pui Pui at 30,000,000 or so lmao. Sorry.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I disagree with this. I've Piccolo fairly close to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs so Pui Pui ain't nearing that.

You'd be wrong though. Piccolo considers Kaioshin to be a dimension above him, Kaioshin considers the Saiyans above himself and then Pui Pui is suggested to be above that.

Pui Pui is one shotting guys that would one shot Piccolo. This is what the story indicates.

RoF Base Gohan seems to have regressed tremendously even off of his initial Buu Saga power and even he is above Piccolo. RoF Gohan would probably get beat by Pui Pui as well.

Pui Pui 330,000,000
Base Goku (boo saga) 750,000,000
Piccolo (boo saga) 3,000,000,000
Shin 4,500,000,000

Kaioshin admits flat out inferiority to someone Base Goku is handling in Yakkon. You are recreating the story based on your own feelings, not what's actually going on.

Kaioshin absolutely shat himself when he saw Yakkon. Babidi is aware of Kaioshin's power and sends Pui Pui out there anyway.

Base Goku >= Yakkon > Saiyans > Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo

Sorry feats, but I'm not with you in your scaling interpretations.

Because you are not following the story and no other reason than your personal preferences and bias.

But there's a problem either way. Base Trunks may be androids level, but he struggled with 150G based on his lack of experience. Would he struggle in 10x tho? Doubtful. I don't think so. And Pui Pui, whom I scaled at androids SSJ level, expected someone who was beating his ass, so someone android 18 level at least, to struggle in 10x betting on his lack of experience... lack of experience hindered someone of 18's level to walk in 150x, but 10x is a level wayyyy below, so it still sounds weird either way for Pui Pui to count on 10x affecting someone who he judges isn't used to it, that's like saying kid Trunks would struggle in 10x. So yeah, weird either way, if they used 150x it'd have flown way better.

Yeah, it's poor writing. That much is for sure. There's two competing narratives here that are contraditions. Much like the boys power. They are doing well sparring, then suggested to be 10x minimum weaker than adults. Same thing with is Gohan a Ssj or Ssj2. AT had a lot of issues in the Buu Saga, but we have to pick the one with the stronger case in each situation.

So if I want to cover for that, for Pui Pui to expect someone >>> him to struggle under 10x the same way Trunks struggled 150x, I can divide my former Pui Pui's placement by 10 or so, assuming there's some level of linearity to gravity levels. That'd place Pui Pui at 30,000,000 or so lmao. Sorry.

Which directly goes against Kaioshin's assessments of the situation. I'll stick with Kaioshin over your desire to limit this one off character's power for your personal likes and dislikes.

Kaioshin says Freeza is nothing to him. He knows the Saiyans are above him. He panics when Pui Pui is sent out suggesting they all fight together. After Vegeta easily handles Pui Pui, Kaioshin never thinks that Pui Pui is weaker than advertised, only that the Saiyans are far stronger than he expected.

Bro, this is so easy to see. Just read and ignore the clear errors in story telling ability and it's super simple.

 

[Kyo]

It can also be said Pui Pui never thought Vegeta had experience with 10G, and it seems the experience someone has is worth a lot in how they will handle the gravity increase. Kid Trunks who blows Goku's namek landing out of the water couldn't deal with 159G because he wasn't used to that... while pre androids Vegeta ordered a 300G. So the level of experience someone has with the gravity counts a lot. But there's a ceiling tho, as SSJ kid Trunks could nullify his lack of experience.

All correct.

10g is what's written in the story folks, it's too bad that it is, but it is. Base Future Trunks could feel the increased gravity in the RoSaT even though it was only 10g because he'd never experienced it before, but do you think anyone north of Piccolo is feeling that? I suppose it's not impossible, but I highly doubt it.

 

[ahill1]

@FeatsofPower

The story is inconsistent either way, bro. There're holes every way you choose.

Shin didn't know Pui Pui. He only knew Babidi's rep of gathering strong warriors. He shat at base Vegeta yet was calm when sensing SSJ2 Gohan. You can assume Kaioshin drastically changed from the >>> Piccolo to the <<< base Saiyans in the spaceship if you wish. We both know he doesn't act the same. But Piccolo >>> base Saiyans is left undisputed. Maybe you can have a pre ship Kaioshin >>> Piccolo >>> base >>> Kaioshin post ship... makes sense. In universe, the ship had a special technology that made Shin weak as fuck. Out of universe, obviously the reasonable one, Toriyama changed how he felt he should depict Shin.

 

[FeatsofPower]

10g is what's written in the story folks, it's too bad that it is, but it is. Base Future Trunks could feel the increased gravity in the RoSaT even though it was only 10g because he'd never experienced it before, but do you think anyone north of Piccolo is feeling that? I suppose it's not impossible, but I highly doubt it.

This logical implication is overridden by clear-cut character statements. There are numerous pieces of evidence that suggest Pui Pui isn't anywhere near as weak as the stupid idea of 10x gravity being anything worth bragging about at this level of power.

Pui Pui is one of the strongest fighters in the world and was powerful enough to give Kaioshin a fright whereas Freeza doesn't.

 

[Kyo]

They're just not that clear-cut, though. Kaioshin doesn't even know who the guy is.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Kaioshin is panicking doesn't that mean he's acting irrationally? When calm he knows the Saiyans are stronger, but when he panicks he forgot how strong they really are.

Pui Pui is a bit tough because he's all expectations. Babidi's opinion is questionable, and Shin is going off of hearsay. Even if Pui Pui were piss weak, Vegeta's power overrides that. It's like how 19 and 20 being weak didn't negate everyone's surprise at SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The story is inconsistent either way, bro. There're holes every way you choose.

Indeed, which is why picking the correct option is super key here. It's easy to go around and not see the big picture here, but stick to the big facts, not the little ones.

Shin didn't know Pui Pui.

Yet Badibi knows Shin and still sent Pui Pui out there and expected Shin to be helpless. Shin expects Pui Pui to be very strong and is shocked Vegeta can beat him, never once does he think Pui Pui is weaker than advertised.

He only knew Babidi's rep of gathering strong warriors.

Indeed and not only did Badibi meet this expectation, he severely outperformed it. You are implying the opposite of what actually happened. Kaioshin needed helps against the likes of people like Pui Pui.

He shat at base Vegeta yet was calm when sensing SSJ2 Gohan.

He forgot about Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power and his power should not be in the character's mind at all during these events.

You can assume Kaioshin drastically changed from the >>> Piccolo to the <<< base Saiyans in the spaceship if you wish.

He never changed. He was always way above Piccolo and way below the Base Saiyans. As the story indicates.

But Piccolo >>> base Saiyans is left undisputed.

It's not, Base Gohan and Base Vegeta expect to be able to win the tournament despite Android 18 and Piccolo's presence. You are going backwards my bro.

Maybe you can have a pre ship Kaioshin >>> Piccolo >>> base >>> Kaioshin post ship... makes sense.

There is no pre ship, post ship.

Out of universe, obviously the reasonable one, Toriyama changed how he felt he should depict Shin.

Piccolo is just weaker than you think.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah Piccolo is trash. Not even a dumpster fire, just cold yesterday trash. RoF is the final nail in the coffin.

 

[Kyo]

I've said this before, but even if Babidi knows anything about Kaioshin (and I've plenty of reason to doubt that he does, but let's set that aside for now), he's still wrong that Pui Pui could handle anything. Picture what would've happened to Gohan and Krillin if Vegeta hadn't decapitated Gurd, and you'll see a fraction of what would've actually happened if Kaioshin + 3 other fighters weaker than Pui Pui had ganged up on Pui Pui.

 

[ahill1]

Indeed, which is why picking the correct option is super key here. It's easy to go around and not see the big picture here, but stick to the big facts, not the little ones.

I fail to see how this is the more correct one. You'd need to assume Shin thought Pui Pui was a threat to SSJ2 Gohan.

Yet Badibi knows Shin and still sent Pui Pui out there and expected Shin to be helpless. Shin expects Pui Pui to be very strong and is shocked Vegeta can beat him, never once does he think Pui Pui is weaker than advertised.

We don't know if Babidi knows Shin's strength, Shin can't even be sensed. He only knew, as far as we know, Shin killed his father.

Indeed and not only did Badibi meet this expectation, he severely outperformed it. You are implying the opposite of what actually happened. Kaioshin needed helps against the likes of people like Pui Pui.

Pui Pui didn't meet anyone's expectations. Ok, Shin could comment on how weak he was, and he was gushing at base Vegeta instead, I'd umderstand completely the implications were this an isolated piece of evidence. But we have Shin being more indifferent at SSJ2 Gohan. What if Shin is surprised Vegeta has this power without transforming? It'd at least make more sense of those things, huh?

He forgot about Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power and his power should not be in the character's mind at all during these events

Forgetting one thing doesn't mean he needs to react more abrazively to the next way weaker thing... unless there's a reason to. His reaction should follow the same patterns whether he forgot about Gohan or not. So why did he react way more at base Vegeta? My guess is because he was still overestimating Babidi's warriors, not seeing how weak Pui Pui was because he was in a state of fear, or thinking Vegeta didn't even transform and was already that strong.

It's not, Base Gohan and Base Vegeta expect to be able to win the tournament despite Android 18 and Piccolo's presence. You are going backwards my bro.

Vegeta didn't see Piccolo in the spaceship. And Gohan knows Piccolo. Do you think Gohan thought, that with Piccolo knowing Gohan would be handicapped, that Piccolo would just KO the shit out of him? He knows Piccolo isn't there for that... Piccolo knows he's outclassed under normal SSJ circumstances.

Piccolo is just weaker than you think.

CGs didn't portray it like that.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I've said this before, but even if Babidi knows anything about Kaioshin (and I've plenty of reason to doubt that he does, but let's set that aside for now), he's still wrong that Pui Pui could handle anything. Picture what would've happened to Gohan and Krillin if Vegeta hadn't decapitated Gurd, and you'll see a fraction of what would've actually happened if Kaioshin + 3 other fighters weaker than Pui Pui had ganged up on Pui Pui.

Badibi might not be aware of Kaioshin's paralysis techniques.

Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin still holds firm despite this point.

That's like saying Gohan and Krillen aren't > Gurd.

I fail to see how this is the more correct one. You'd need to assume Shin thought Pui Pui was a threat to SSJ2 Gohan.

Shin forgot about Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power.

We don't know if Babidi knows Shin's strength, Shin can't even be sensed. He only knew, as far as we know, Shin killed his father.

Yeah, Babidi has a sense of Kaioshin based on what he knows about him versus his father. Nothing contradicts the general placements they have for each other so it stands.

Ok, Shin could comment on how weak he was, and he was gushing at base Vegeta instead,

Exactly. What is the point of gushing about Base Vegeta if he beat Raditz? It doesn't make sense man. Base Vegeta is impressive because he beat Pui Pui.

But we have Shin being more indifferent at SSJ2 Gohan.

Later recollections seem to account for Shin not truly sensing Gohan properly because he bases how strong he thinks of Gohan in regards to how difficult it was to restrain him.

My guess is because he was still overestimating Babidi's warriors

He never did this once, he only underestimated the Saiyans.

Vegeta didn't see Piccolo in the spaceship. And Gohan knows Piccolo.

Vegeta shows no shock of Piccolo entering and there's no indication anything is going to change. Gohan intends to win the tournament, and he literally invited Piccolo.

He knows Piccolo isn't there for that... Piccolo knows he's outclassed under normal SSJ circumstances.

Piccolo is completely outclassed by the Base fighters, Super Saiyan isn't necessary. This theme has been reinforced in Super as well.

CGs didn't portray it like that.

Sure and the later logic trumps the previous logic. Buu Saga and Super prove that Piccolo is piss weak.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I've said this before, but even if Babidi knows anything about Kaioshin (and I've plenty of reason to doubt that he does, but let's set that aside for now), he's still wrong that Pui Pui could handle anything. Picture what would've happened to Gohan and Krillin if Vegeta hadn't decapitated Gurd, and you'll see a fraction of what would've actually happened if Kaioshin + 3 other fighters weaker than Pui Pui had ganged up on Pui Pui.

That's why I think we gotta keep this "expectations" thing really loose. Shin just expects a strong guy, and he ought to indeed be strong. He could be 100x stronger and thus immune to Shin's paralysis, or he could be just 1.33x stronger.

Turns out Pui Pui was on the lower end, but it doesn't matter because Base Vegeta is absurdly strong anyway.

 

[FeatsofPower]

That's why I think we gotta keep this "expectations" thing really loose. Shin just expects a strong guy, and he ought to indeed be strong. He could be 100x stronger and thus immune to Shin's paralysis, or he could be just 1.33x stronger.

Well, you have to remember what is going on here.

Shin expects Badibi's guy to be really strong, probably stronger than all of them. Remember the narrative here.

Guys, I might be a god, but I don't know if I'm strong enough to take down Badibi and his men by myself. I need your help.

Ok guys, this is Badibi's guys, we have to go at it together!

Shin needed help against the likes of the Pui Puis of the universe. Yakon and Dabura were complete surprises.

Turns out Pui Pui was on the lower end, but it doesn't matter because Base Vegeta is absurdly strong anyway.

Pui Pui should be as strong as Badibi indicates him to be. He knows Pui Pui's strength the best and seems to generally know of Kaioshin's strength.

Pui Pui >>> Kaioshin is what Badibi implies and it's never contradicted.

 

[Kyo]

Badibi might not be aware of Kaioshin's paralysis techniques.

He might not be aware of many things.
It's completely arbitrary to accept that he was unaware of the extent of Kaioshin's techniques, but still give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his knowledge of Kaioshin's power level. All he knows for sure is that this dude beat his daddy before.

Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin still holds firm despite this point.

It probably would, if there was no evidence to the contrary. If not for the 10g, then I would agree with you that Pui Pui was still meant to give Kaioshin pause and that the focus is on how Vegeta still exceeds such a powerful opponent...but the 10g line is still there, and is more solid than anything that comes out of Kaioshin's or Babidi's mouths.

That's like saying Gohan and Krillen aren't > Gurd.

It's like saying that Gohan and Krillin would've lost to Gurd on their own. Which they would have.
The point is that Babidi was wrong, and the estimations and predictions he pulls out of thin air are anything but clear-cut.