Who was the 1st DBGT character to beat a hypothetical Vegetto SSJ3 (Boo)?
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I haven't watched GT as, in my whole life... Sorry, if I can't help you.
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Presently, I don't see why SSJ3 Vegito needs to be any higher than Baby Arc SSJ3 Goku, who in base form, could contend with guys ahead of Buu. Base Baby would have a fight on his hands; he lacks in skill, but could outlast the fusion. Super BV1 overwhelms him, with Vegito being a bit of a pest before going down.
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SBV1 was said by Goku to be the strongest ki that he had ever felt. I feel like Vegetto should apply to this considering Baby claimed to have obtained "the greatest Saiyan power." Based on this I might even have SSJ3 Vegetto above initial SSJ4 Goku. Definitely gets slapped by his full power though.
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The thing about Baby's quote is that it's extremely devalued if Vegito was the actual greatest of Saiyan power, but simply didn't show it all.
Think about it this way. You have a racer that narrowly beats the fastest time on a circuit, then claims to be the best. Seems okay, in a vacuum. Though you then find out that waaay back, the previous record was set by a guy that was on one of the weaker gears at the time and didn't care about maxing out. It makes the current guy's statement a lot less impressive.
If Baby's the greatest, then he's the greatest. I'd still say it's an understatement, but it's far more effective to take it in a literal sense than there being an asterisk on his claim.
Think about it this way. You have a racer that narrowly beats the fastest time on a circuit, then claims to be the best. Seems okay, in a vacuum. Though you then find out that waaay back, the previous record was set by a guy that was on one of the weaker gears at the time and didn't care about maxing out. It makes the current guy's statement a lot less impressive.
If Baby's the greatest, then he's the greatest. I'd still say it's an understatement, but it's far more effective to take it in a literal sense than there being an asterisk on his claim.
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As far as GT is concerned I don't think the Potara can ever be used again because Goku and Vegeta destroyed the last two sets and the idea of Potaras symbolizing the authority of the Kaioshin didn't yet exist at the time, so I don't think Vegetto's unseen SSJ2 and 3 forms are being counted here when Goku claims Vegeta-Baby holds the greatest power he's ever sensed. DBGT animanga for the TV special was compiled by Toei and Shueisha just like Toriyama's interviews were included in the Broly ani-manga and it holds Vegetto in as great of a regard as SSJ4 Goku if not greater, so there's that too.
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Goku's statement can be true independent of Baby's quote.
With Vegito, are you referring to the 'perhaps' greater than SSJ4 quote?
With Vegito, are you referring to the 'perhaps' greater than SSJ4 quote?
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I don't really think Baby is privy to how strong SSJ3 Vegetto would've been in Z. Vegeta after separating from Goku had trouble even fathoming Kid Boo's power and speed (let alone Vegetto's) and said he was unbelievably fast and powerful and couldn't believe Goku fought someone so strong.
Yes
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No need to get caught up in technicalities. Baby can be boasting and happen to also be right regardless of what he knows. It's a classic villain moment of declaring absolute superiority, which seems warranted in this case.
Super Saiyan 3 is just a multiplier, and a state that Baby is well aware of given his fight with Goku before SBV1. So if Vegito came to mind, then his SSJ3 self can be theoretically analysed too, if he cares about any of this.
I don't see the relevance of your Vegeta reference. The main take-away from that moment is that Kid Buu was a monster in the power department, and so was Goku for keeping up. It just puts things into perspective in a very raw and direct way.
The statement of Vegito perhaps being stronger than Super Saiyan 4 could just be an ability comparison:
As in, Goku and Vegeta undergoing Potara fusion is perhaps stronger than if either of them went SSJ4 instead. SSJ4 doesn't have a set multiplier, so that could explain the 'perhaps' part. Whichever lens you view it through, it's not worth hinging on since it isn't definitive.
Super Saiyan 3 is just a multiplier, and a state that Baby is well aware of given his fight with Goku before SBV1. So if Vegito came to mind, then his SSJ3 self can be theoretically analysed too, if he cares about any of this.
I don't see the relevance of your Vegeta reference. The main take-away from that moment is that Kid Buu was a monster in the power department, and so was Goku for keeping up. It just puts things into perspective in a very raw and direct way.
The statement of Vegito perhaps being stronger than Super Saiyan 4 could just be an ability comparison:
As in, Goku and Vegeta undergoing Potara fusion is perhaps stronger than if either of them went SSJ4 instead. SSJ4 doesn't have a set multiplier, so that could explain the 'perhaps' part. Whichever lens you view it through, it's not worth hinging on since it isn't definitive.
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Vegetto being a temporary and now inaccessible existence is why Baby need not necessarily be above his hypothetical peak of SSJ3 to warrant him being the greatest power, or the highest Ki Goku has ever sensed. For a similar example, the powered up Jiren that was remarked to be abovr anybody up to the early segments of the ToP need not be above a hypothetical SSJB Kaio-ken x 20 Vegetto from the previous arc.
But Vegeta, who's gone and seen and/or felt SSJ3 Ki numerous times, could not believe how fast or strong a SSJ3 tier opponent was, even at the closest transformation in power to it (SSJ2). And this is a Vegeta who has once wielded a massively greater power as SSJ Vegetto. So just perceiving and experiencing some things in a temporary fused state doesn't guarantee omniscient insight in a single body.
If it was talking about a hypothetical GT Vegetto it'd have said just that, like how the GT Perfect Files talked about SSJ4 GT Gogeta being the strongest across dimensions. And that clearly excludes a theoretical SSJ4 GT Vegetto since the Daizenshuu and manga as well as the Z anime had all established Potara >> Dance. It makes the most sense for them to be speaking about Z Vegetto, whom we actually saw, and Gogeta being the strongest GT character doesn't include hypotheticals like Vegetto.
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Saying that Baby need not be that level doesn't really provide a counter argument. His own words give us reason to think he's the new benchmark. Vegito's level of competition wasn't even at Base Goku's level, and we saw how Base BV comfortably handled him in SSJ3. Your Jiren callback doesn't match this situation, given that in Baby's case, there's justification outside of his words for why he's that powerful.
At this stage, getting into Vegito's scaling would be a good segway from this talking point since we don't hold SSJ3 Vegito to the same standard and can explore that more thoroughly.
The objective was for Vegeta to survive. He knew he was outgunned in every facet. Getting thrashed up close and personal ought to make someone contemplate the power difference between themselves and their foe from a different angle than just being a spectator. Even so, characters -- including Vegeta -- still often judge how strong someone is just by observing them, and we the audience go along with it unless when given a reason not to. Same goes for when characters claim that they can obliterate blah blah blah; that's why Super Perfect Cell being Solar System level is widely accepted. Baby doesn't need to be omniscient to be stronger than Vegito.
Never said it was purely talking about a GT version of Vegito. The key thing is that a Super Saiyan 4 user wasn't specified, just the form itself, giving the statement ambiguity. Us being torn on the meaning shows that we're not dealing with a concrete statement. Based off of the wording, what we can extract is that there's room for scepticism, so I'm not convinced that it establishes firm scaling for Vegito.
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GT characters also have drastically low multipliers compared to Z characters, as sween with Goku being stated to only have more than doubled his power upon going SSJ. Appealing to base Goku being stronger than Boo isn't really saying much when he wouldn't even get 5 times stronger from going SSJ2, whereas Z characters were getting far more significant boosts. We also see that characters and guidebooks don't take into account hypothetical forms as seen with my Vegetto example in regard to SSJ4 Gogeta being the strongest across dimensions in the confines of GT.
I am of the opinion that Vegetto would benefit from a full SSJ2 and SSJ3 multiplier when accessing his strongest form, while SSJ's heavy nerf in GT likely means Goku's higher forms had nerfed multipliers as well. It gives plenty of wiggle room for SSJ3 Vegetto to incise out SSJ4 Goku.
Goku could not accurately judge Perfect Cell's hidden power even after fighting him, and he admits Dabra (someone far weaker than himself) surpassed his expectations. Vegeta similarly could not accurately guage Kid Boo's power just from feeling his Ki or from watching his fight with SSJ3 Goku, as seen by him being shocked by how powerful and fast his punches and kicks were. What they seem to be able to do is compare Ki sizes, but since Vegetto never needed more than SSJ to deal with even an enraged Boohan, SSJ3 Vegetto's hypothetical power (something which isn't even accessible anymore at that point) being counted is dubious at best.
The only SSJ4 that existed at the time of the airing of the GT TV special (the ani-manga version of which says Vegetto >= SSJ4) was SSJ4 Goku, and it's clearly not speaking about Gogeta since SSJ4 Gogeta is far above any form of Z Vegetto. And again, it isn't speaking about a hypothetical GT version of Vegetto since that'd definitely be above SSJ4 Goku.
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Can either him or SSJ4 Goku beat SSJG Goku from BoG though?
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SS4 Goku
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SSJB Goku > SSJ4 Gogeta > SSJG Goku > SSJ4 Goku
