Tao Pai Pai (1st appearence) vs Yamcha (22nd Budokai)

[Son.Gohan84]

Old thread, but I joined this forum due to finding this on Google search actually.

I like the theories you guys are spitballing here. To me, it makes logical sense that Tao should be around Crane Hermits power (TBH). I just can't see Crane Hermit one shotting Tao and Tao was given huge props on the 22nd (beating him was seen as a huge deal). Based on Crane Hermit reactions and Tenshinhan reactions, I just cannot see Chiaotzu>Tao at all.

But Krillin, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu should be above Goku from 3 years ago. So I think it's Toriyama just forgot about the Baba arc (he is an extremely forgetful writer, as we all know). So to make it all make sense, I would have something like this:

Goku (Match level against Gohan) 100
Grandpa Gohan 95
Tao 120
Crane Hermit 120
Yamcha 22nd 110
Krillin 22nd 110
Chiaotzu 105
Goku (Post Korin) 130
Goku (22nd) 160
Tenshinhan (22nd FP) 155

I think something like that works. Scouter numbers are hard to use for DB so I'm just using random numbers for gaps. I like AHILL logic here.

 

[Animelover5487]

Old thread, but I joined this forum due to finding this on Google search actually.

I like the theories you guys are spitballing here. To me, it makes logical sense that Tao should be around Crane Hermits power (TBH). I just can't see Crane Hermit one shotting Tao and Tao was given huge props on the 22nd (beating him was seen as a huge deal). Based on Crane Hermit reactions and Tenshinhan reactions, I just cannot see Chiaotzu>Tao at all.

But Krillin, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu should be above Goku from 3 years ago. So I think it's Toriyama just forgot about the Baba arc (he is an extremely forgetful writer, as we all know). So to make it all make sense, I would have something like this:

Goku (Match level against Gohan) 100
Grandpa Gohan 95
Tao 120
Crane Hermit 120
Yamcha 22nd 110
Krillin 22nd 110
Chiaotzu 105
Goku (Post Korin) 130
Goku (22nd) 160
Tenshinhan (22nd FP) 155

I think something like that works. Scouter numbers are hard to use for DB so I'm just using random numbers for gaps. I like AHILL logic here.

So then don't use scouter numbers? Toriyama doesn't give a shit about being consistent with his numbers so why not have fun with it?

40% Old Daimao >>> Goku > Tenshinhan >> Match Level Goku > 139 Roshi makes fitting any scouter number impossible, no matter how you stretch it

 

[Son.Gohan84]

So then don't use scouter numbers? Toriyama doesn't give a shit about being consistent with his numbers so why not have fun with it?

40% Old Daimao >>> Goku > Tenshinhan >> Match Level Goku > 139 Roshi makes fitting any scouter number impossible, no matter how you stretch it

@Animelover5487 That is what I was thinking. The 100 VS 160 were just random numbers I was throwing out basically.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku (Match level against Gohan) 100
Grandpa Gohan 95
Tao 120
Crane Hermit 120
Yamcha 22nd 110
Krillin 22nd 110
Chiaotzu 105
Goku (Post Korin) 130
Goku (22nd) 160
Tenshinhan (22nd FP) 155

This feels like it is ignoring the implied gaps in the 22nd though. Match level Goku should be blowing away every single competitor in the 22nd by a massive margin. Even Roshi couldn't track his movement, and Roshi is far stronger than Krillin/Yamcha. Match Level Goku should be where you have Battle Level Goku on this scale (at minimum), which makes his Battle Level much more impressive. By this logic, Tenshinhan holding Tao Pai Pai in high regard makes very little sense considering the amount he had surpassed him by.

 

[Son.Gohan84]

This feels like it is ignoring the implied gaps in the 22nd though. Match level Goku should be blowing away every single competitor in the 22nd by a massive margin. Even Roshi couldn't track his movement, and Roshi is far stronger than Krillin/Yamcha. Match Level Goku should be where you have Battle Level Goku on this scale (at minimum), which makes his Battle Level much more impressive. By this logic, Tenshinhan holding Tao Pai Pai in high regard makes very little sense considering the amount he had surpassed him by.

That is why I said Goku used match level against Grandpa Gohan.

So: Match Level Goku (22nd) > Goku (Post Tower) > Tao > Suppressed Goku (22nd) > Yamcha/Krillin/Chiaotzu > Match Level Goku (Baba) >= Grandpa Gohan

 

[Yoshi]

I think the feats in the Fortune Teller Baba Arc prove Yamcha is stronger than Tao Pai Pai more than the statements made by Tenshinhan and Tsuru about how they can’t believe Tao was defeated by Goku.

 

[Son.Gohan84]

I think the feats in the Fortune Teller Baba Arc prove Yamcha is stronger than Tao Pai Pai more than the statements made by Tenshinhan and Tsuru about how they can’t believe Tao was defeated by Goku.

So do you think crane hermit can one shot Tao?

 

[Cenas bald spot]

I’m still for Tao>Chappa being a thing.
So I wouldn’t be against Tao>Yamacha.

Crane Hermit and Tenshithead holding Tao to a certain of respect is moot if Tao is far far below them which is not what’s being conveyed on panel.

 

[GSM123]

I’m going for Tao being around Kuririn and Yamcha. Tao isn’t fodder, but just Goku vs Pamput already had Tsuru conceding.

Chappa is more a case of the gang expecting Goku to need full power. The surprise isn’t Goku beating Chappa, it’s him doing it so easily. I say Chappa only needs to be > Akkuman.

@SSJ2 you raise a good point with Goku blitzing even Roshi, I only ever see people making Goku slightly above him. But doesn’t Tien say even he struggled to see Goku? What’s your gap between full match level Goku and Roshi?

 

[SSJ2]

Yes he does:

Chapter: 127, P8.5, 9.2
Tenshinhan: “He hasn’t vanished. They just can’t see him! Even I can only barely see him. There’s no way the others can! That incessant noise is the sound of him kicking the ground…! He’s using left-to-right footwork at such rapid speed that it surpasses the ordinary…! All while gradually drawing closer…”

I'm thinking it needs to be a pretty huge gap. It can't be said enough that Roshi wasn't even capable of tracking his speed. I think people only keep match level Goku and Roshi close because Roshi says Goku might have surpassed him. But there is no need to include the word might when you see the feat Goku performed. It's reminiscent of Goku vs the Ginyus.

All of this factors in to Tao being fodder no matter which way you slice it. Even if you want to keep him relevant with the likes of Roshi (which is not suggested), even Roshi is fodder to Goku. There is no need to inflate Tao because of Tsuru/Tenshinhan's disbelief.

 

[Yoshi]

So do you think crane hermit can one shot Tao?

No.

 

[Son.Gohan84]

I’m going for Tao being around Kuririn and Yamcha. Tao isn’t fodder, but just Goku vs Pamput already had Tsuru conceding.

Chappa is more a case of the gang expecting Goku to need full power. The surprise isn’t Goku beating Chappa, it’s him doing it so easily. I say Chappa only needs to be > Akkuman.

@SSJ2 you raise a good point with Goku blitzing even Roshi, I only ever see people making Goku slightly above him. But doesn’t Tien say even he struggled to see Goku? What’s your gap between full match level Goku and Roshi?

There was way more surprise at Goku killing Tao then Chappa.

Is there really a need for Chappa to be > Goku (Post Korin)? He basically got one shotted by a suppressed Goku whereas Krillin went even with that Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

There was way more surprise at Goku killing Tao then Chappa.

Is there really a need for Chappa to be > Goku (Post Korin)? He basically got one shotted by a suppressed Goku whereas Krillin went even with that Goku.

Roshi saw Goku's performance against Chappa and realized he was in trouble. The same Roshi that saw Goku fight Gohan.

The reactions from Krillin and Yamcha are also quite telling.

 

[GSM123]

The big surprise was on how Goku wasn’t even at full power. Everybody thought Goku was left behind and turns out he’s still the strongest by a mile.

Tenshinhan: “He hasn’t vanished. They just can’t see him! Even I can only barely see him.

How does Tenshinhan see through Goku’s trick so easily when he tries it on their fight then?

 

[Big Ank]

Haha I had forgotten about this topic. Now rereading it I remember it. Wow, I was still willing to go in deep discussing this hehe. It's always been an interesting topic for me tho, that was the first time I really considered the Tao > Yamcha/Kuririn angle, which I had never before, but honestly, with how the story was conveyed, I think each side has gaps that may be filled in some ways. I like the Tao Pai Pai being a big deal there the best though from a narrative standpoint but it's left ambiguous for sure.

 

[SSJ2]

How does Tenshinhan see through Goku’s trick so easily when he tries it on their fight then?

It helped that he had already seen it before, but it was by no means easily. He was tracking Goku accurately the entire time that he was blitzing Krillin, down to the amount of punches that were landed. It's no surprise that he'd be able to track it in their fight.

 

[Animelover5487]

Tao is stronger than Kuririn/Yamcha. Like it makes no sense for Tenshinhan to fight Yamcha and be like "Well this Yamcha guy was stronger than I thought but still nothing special" and then hear about Goku killing Tao and say "Wtf? This kid defeated Tao? No way." The narrative supports Tao being a big deal. And unlike the Chappa hype, even Goku 3 years later agrees Tao was strong.

Goku used his match level at the Baba tournament.

 

[GSM123]

Tao is stronger than Kuririn/Yamcha. Like it makes no sense for Tenshinhan to fight Yamcha and be like "Well this Yamcha guy was stronger than I thought but still nothing special" and then hear about Goku killing Tao and say "Wtf? This kid defeated Tao? No way." The narrative supports Tao being a big deal. And unlike the Chappa hype, even Goku 3 years later agrees Tao was strong.

Goku used his match level at the Baba tournament.

Tbf Tenshinhan did expect Yamcha to be the best Kame student, and he wasn’t really in denial. Both he and Tsuru admit Goku > Tao when he fights Pamput.

I can see Tao ~ Kuririn/Yamcha > Chappa, but Tao >> them? Dunno.

 

[Big Ank]

It helped that he had already seen it before, but it was by no means easily. He was tracking Goku accurately the entire time that he was blitzing Krillin, down to the amount of punches that were landed. It's no surprise that he'd be able to track it in their fight.

When Roshi said Goku might have surpassed him, after Goku displayed his, apparently, full match level defeating Kuririn, what do you think Roshi is considering? Goku's power prior to the "speed technique" or the speed technique? Because it seems like a technique, kind-of (not quite one) that makes Goku quicker than he normally is, as even Ten said it wasn't easy for him to see, that his third eye helped him... Roshi didn't even see Goku, he could only listen to his steps. So Goku "might" have surpassed Roshi based on a technique that Roshi couldn't even see where Goku is? That's more like a speed-enhancement move, I wonder what level in specific Roshi had when saying that. That's been always a question for me because it's not like Goku just just went on a single blitz and insta knocked Kuririn down...

 

[Animelover5487]

Tbf Tenshinhan did expect Yamcha to be the best Kame student, and he wasn’t really in denial. Both he and Tsuru admit Goku > Tao when he fights Pamput.

I can see Tao ~ Kuririn/Yamcha > Chappa, but Tao >> them? Dunno.

The level of strength Goku used to defeat Pamput was already stronger than Yamcha since Tenshinhan said that the tournament was finally getting "interesting" and Tsuru only said he "may" have beat Tao, not definitely. And even Chun doesn't believe Goku at first beat Tao. Kuririn and Yamcha would be praised alot heavier if they were already as strong as Tao.

Tsuru also repeats the same might at the end of the Kuririn fight when he performed his blitz using his match strength.

Goku used the same invisible hits tactic to finish both Pamput and Kuririn so the way I see it is that Goku was using his true match level strength in bursts in those instances similar to what he did against the Ginyu Force and that was what Tsuru was saying was stronger than Tao but the gap isn't big.