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There's issues with that too. Put out all of Raditz suppressed levels and you'll see,

Yeah, that's what I do essentially.

Since a number of our members seem to be confused, are we not saying BoZ numbers are absolute dog crap? These numbers are not workable, not if you intend on respecting early Dragonball's character statements. Is this not the norm anymore?

Then you have to dismiss 90% of the character statements in Dragonball. Is King Piccolo using less than half power to fight Goku or not?

So you think King Piccolo > Kami is ok going by the guidebook numbers?

Yeah, that's what I was arguing initially. But if Cell says, "How about I go all out, in speed at least" it's awkward.

Let me clarify my stance. We have straight up errors, like the BoZ numbers. And then we have less than perfect numbers. Like the Cui/Vegeta spacing. Are you arguing that AT cannot make errors, is not human, and got all his number schema down perfectly in the Raditz Saga and had the foresight to...

I think they are implying it's a 2nd form Freeza scenaio, but then even he was noted to have gone full power. Cell saying "Speed, at least" is rough.

Surely someone would notice that large of a discrepancy in power between Cell and Goku if it were that large don't you think? Oh it can't be sensed is what you are saying?

It is logical. If were are bound by the in universe laws of logic and consistency that is. We see what a 1.33x gap is portrayed as multiple times. Cui vs Vegeta is not consistently portrayed as a 1.33x gap. This is 100% portrayed in the story. Vegeta smashing Cui so easily has always been a...

It's head canon no doubt, but head canon can be logical. Head canon can also present superior options than the original author did. That's the point, to do better than the author. To "fix" his mistakes. That's the entire point.

No, that has never been the argument. The argument has been that the author has made a set of narrative claims that completely go against the numbers he is presented. These are valid reasons for offering alternatives, this isn't a fly by night situation. The author says hey 1+1=3, when we all...

Yeah, I'm just double checking what I can get away with.

Remember, Krillen couldn't tell who was stronger between Zarbon and Vegeta as well.

How big is your gap for Goku and Freeza?

Respect.

Ok, but you concede 2.22x is pitiful by Android Saga standards? Fair enough, you stayed consistent all the way through regardless of the consequences. I can't knock it.

Where he outright states he is stronger than Goku.

Ok, so now you introduced a different narrative then the one being sold. The argument has never been FBC > Piccolo. We know that. The argument is would Piccolo consider FBC's amp pitiful. Ok now we are talking. So Galick Gun is a pitiful amp then is the narrative you are suggesting happened...

Piccolo also said Majin Vegeta may be stronger than Kid Gohan. Piccolo ended up changing his tune and became definitive about it later.