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Yeah, I'm still sticking with that. I didn't see anything that would contradict it, and it would even help the argument for why the Saiyans didn't bother with SSBE/Kaioken Blue or UI.

I don't see why he can't be in the middle. Yamcha slacked while Krillin kept a hefty lead.

Maybe. The novelization doesn't describe any power-up here, only that they're fighting nearly evenly though Gogeta isn't worried at all.

So there's still no real evidence that ToP Goku was some kind of benchmark during the Moro fight?

I don't think Vegeta can compete at all.

Krillin's training didn't make much of a difference against Yunba, despite having 18 to train with, so if he didn't make much progress then Tenshinhan and Yamcha certainly didn't since they're still below him. The only ones that made insane progress were Gohan, Piccolo, and the androids, which...

I'm going to need some more specifics, like how exactly Vegeta regards UI Goku and if he really didn't know Goku trained for the Moro fight. Just looking at the SC I don't see any surprise or commending from Vegeta regarding Moro beating UI Goku, but it could be something that didn't really qualify.

No noted huge improvement for Yamcha so yeah, I don't see him being that tough. He'd get rumproasted.

Not by much, but he is weaker. I usually do 100,000,000 for him and 120,000,000 for Freeza. But if you make Freeza stronger you can make Cold stronger as well.

He should be weaker than normal Freeza. Freeza was the strongest in the universe before the upgrades and Daizenshuu 7 backs it up.

I know, but you're still making guesses. Most of your levels aren't stated.

Yet we know nothing about the Shin Kikoho, dumb dumb.

Yes, absolutely. I'm just saying you're also making up things trying to go by what the series tells you, so what is the difference when someone tries to figure out how strong an attack is?

Honestly, it's going to be stupid no matter what you do. I just don't care what somebody else's arbitrary "silly limit" is for the Shin Kikoho. Spopobich might think 1,000x is too much while Yamamama might think 100x is too much. It's pointless to argue over that, not that you necessarily were...

Aren't you kind of doing the same thing by making random things up without Toriyama actually stating it?

I think if I do another PL list, I'll wank my humans to something fierce like this. [Gohan: 800,000 --> 5,000,000] Krillin: 26,000 [vs Ginyu] --> 75,000 [vs Freeza] --> 250,000 [Androids] Tenshinhan: 30,000 [Kaio] --> 38,000 [Mecha Freeza] --> 150,000 [Androids] Yamcha: 20,000 [Kaio] --> 70,000...

Trunks is still too weak. He should be comfortably ahead of Piccolo and close to Goku and Vegeta. Piccolo is like Tier 2 to the Saiyans being Tier 1. And I mean with regular Super Saiyan.

But the turd is dense as hell.

High tens of thousands perhaps. They're irrelevant. Gero and 19 were absorbing car batteries so they seem to have low standards. Goobers.

Where is Trunks' power level during the android saga? I only see his power when he killed Freeza, which isn't the same as when he fought alongside Vegeta and Piccolo.