base Gotenks (post Rosat) vs SSJ3 Goku

[Kidbuu55]

Even in ROSAT, when Gotenks fails to beat Buu, Piccolo comments that Gotenks did better than he expected, meaning that him even managing to fight near Buu's level wasn't something he expected him to be able to do.

He didn't expect Gotenks to be able to put up a fight against Evil Boo, not Fat Boo.

False.

In the viz translation, it reads:

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell fusion hasn't been enough yet?”

Now, Krillin, Goten and Trunks can't tell that Buu got stronger, and here Piccolo is stating that Gotenks isn't enough to face him. Even Trunks admits that they couldn't beat Buu before.

Buu says base Gotenks is weak:

Chapter: 490 (DBZ 296), P4.1-2
Context: after Boo smacks Gotenks
Gotenks: “Heh…hehen…! You’re pretty tough, aincha?...W-well, I pla-planned on that…!”
Boo: “Enough already. You’re weak. This isn’t any fun, so I’ll kill you.”

And finally, Piccolo points out (even after Gotenks fights Buu as a SSJ) that this is the first time that Buu has fought someone as strong as him, meaning SSJ3 Gotenks.

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”

Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P10.6
Context: after Piccolo blows up the entrance to the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “…You truly are strong…Unfortunately, not even Gotenks there could defeat you…However, no matter how strong you may be, it is now impossible for you to escape here, for the rest of your life…”

Piccolo pretty much implies SSJ Gotenks was the strongest fighter to challenge Boo up to that point.

Daizenshuu 2 states Gohan=Goten in battle power, so the guidebook doesn't mean anything.
He didn't expect Gotenks to do much at all.

No, Gotenks was the ONLY fighter who could have done something at this point.
Beyond that, the Guidebook states that base Goten and Gohan are equals, but not in SSJ. Read the entry again. Beyond that, I'm speaking of the character bios from Daizenshuu 7, which it states that Gotenks is inferior to Vegeta until after Roast and SSJ3, PIccolo seems to agree.

 

[Pakl]

Stop with the 2011 crap it was debunked

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

quote

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

It never specifies Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and others WITH SSJ3, nor does it specify who the ''others'' are.Logically, the strongest after Vegeta is Gohan, which is nonsense, as Goten is equals with Gohan.

Yamcha is the strongest after Vegeta.

 

[Papasmurf]

The Daizenshuu was made by people on crack

 

[Kidbuu55]

Not only Krillin's ki sensing in that saga is questionable at best, but that quote is reffering to Gotenks' chances against Evil Boo.
Piccolo is basically telling Krillin to actually sense Evil Boo's ki in the bolded part.

Herms' translation says the same thing:
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Herms example does not say the same thing: The Viz specifically stated that fusion hasn't been enough YET, stating AT ALL. Next, nothing says that Krillin is having issues sensing power - Goten and Trunks don't sense an increase at all, no one BUT Piccolo notices. This is actually the first time that PIccolo mentions that Buu's stronger than before.

Again:

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Not even Piccolo was sure about Buu's power.

The kids are more amazed by his different apparearnce, because they are kids.
Trunks never says they couldn't beat the Boo they were supposed to fight, not the powered up Evil Boo.

They aren't amazed at the difference at all, they just commented on his appearance.

And finally, Piccolo points out (even after Gotenks fights Buu as a SSJ) that this is the first time that Buu has fought someone as strong as him, meaning SSJ3 Gotenks.

Yeah, because not only is obviously Evil Boo stronger than Gotenks as a SSJ, he didn't even fight SSJ Gotenks as Fat Boo.

SSJ Gotenks has fought EVIL BUU, and this is the first time Piccolo has made a comment on Gotenks strength in relation to Buu.

No, Gotenks was the ONLY fighter who could have done something at this point.
Beyond that, the Guidebook states that base Goten and Gohan are equals, but not in SSJ. Read the entry again. Beyond that, I'm speaking of the character bios from Daizenshuu 7, which it states that Gotenks is inferior to Vegeta until after Roast and SSJ3, PIccolo seems to agree.

The way Piccolo words it implies Gotenks was the strongest fighter to challenge Boo so far. Piccolo nor anybody present were never supposed to fight Boo, so that statement wouldn't have a reason to be there.
If they are equals in Base, they are equals as SSJs.
The guidebooks contradict themselves and Gotenk's character bio is vague.

SSJ3 Gotenks IS the strongest person to fight Buu this far, meaning at the time SSJ1 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Also, nothing in any source states that equal base power means that their SSJ's are equal. If that were the case, we would know how strong Goku and Gohan were at the tournament, or how strong Goten and Trunks would be before they powered up to their max, etc.

And Gotenks bio is not vague.

It never specifies Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and others WITH SSJ3, nor does it specify who the ''others'' are.
Logically, the strongest after Vegeta is Gohan, which is nonsense, as Goten is equals with Gohan, so the fusion wouldn't be a power up at all.

It states Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta (and others, including Piccolo, Krillin, 18 and anyone else) in strength until AFTER Roast. If Gotenks was stronger than those fighters before, then that statement makes ZERO sense. Also, Gohan's bio states that he is indeed stronger than Gotenks.

Piccolo never states directly states a word on how Pre Rosat Gotenks compares to Boo, only that his ki is incredible and that his time limit running is more important than him charging at Fat Boo the way he is.

No matter how incredible Gotenks power is, he's not beating Buu in 1 minute, this again doesn't prove he was on Buu's level.

It never specifies Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and others WITH SSJ3, nor does it specify who the ''others'' are.Logically, the strongest after Vegeta is Gohan, which is nonsense, as Goten is equals with Gohan.

Yamcha is the strongest after Vegeta.

That would be Piccolo, 18, and Krillin - all who were present.

Stop with the 2011 crap it was debunked

By who?

 

[Six Trails]

Beyond that, the Guidebook states that base Goten and Gohan are equals, but not in SSJ. Read the entry again.

Aren't you the one who argues that Base Goten and Trunks are weaker than or around 1st form Freeza? Do you also think that Base Gohan is that weak?

 

[Kidbuu55]

Beyond that, the Guidebook states that base Goten and Gohan are equals, but not in SSJ. Read the entry again.

Aren't you the one who argues that Base Goten and Trunks are weaker than or around 1st form Freeza? Do you also think that Base Gohan is that weak?

I don't see a problem with Gohan having a weak base form. His SSJ power is fierce and with his power uncorked, he's even stronger.

I'm just not one for silly things like 'OMG FINAL FORM FRIEZA IS FODDER FOR BASE GOTEN!'

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

''Herms example does not say the same thing: The Viz specifically stated that fusion hasn't been enough YET, stating AT ALL. Next, nothing says that Krillin is having issues sensing power - Goten and Trunks don't sense an increase at all, no one BUT Piccolo notices. This is actually the first time that PIccolo mentions that Buu's stronger than before. ''

The wording in the Viz quote doesn't relate to Gotenks' chances against Fat Boo.
Piccolo is essentially saying:''Didn't you YET realize the Fusion isn't enough to beat this new Boo''.
Viz's translation also sometime completely changes the quotes in order to make the story more readable and to make it fit in the panels.
Krillin thought Base Gotenks might win against Boo, so his ki sensing doesn't mean anything.
Like I've said, the kids are kids and so when Boo looks drastically different, his appearance is what they are gonna first notice.

''Not even Piccolo was sure about Buu's power.''
Piccolo isn't unsure, when immediately later he comments on him being better at everything and states Gotenks will lose.

''They aren't amazed at the difference at all, they just commented on his appearance. ''
They appear amazed.Anyway, the Daizenshuu you like to use outright says Boo had a super power up when he became Evil Boo.

''SSJ Gotenks has fought EVIL BUU, and this is the first time Piccolo has made a comment on Gotenks strength in relation to Buu.''
Yeah, but SSJ Gotenks didn't fight evenly with Evil Boo nor was he ever on par with him.

''SSJ3 Gotenks IS the strongest person to fight Buu this far, meaning at the time SSJ1 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Also, nothing in any source states that equal base power means that their SSJ's are equal. If that were the case, we would know how strong Goku and Gohan were at the tournament, or how strong Goten and Trunks would be before they powered up to their max, etc. ''
SSJ1 Gotenks is treated as a measuring stick for Evil Boo's power.

The Daizenshuu books you like to bring up outright say that.
They didn't even fight at the Budokai and Vegeta even outright implies that, when they make the ''No SSJ rule''.

''It states Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta (and others, including Piccolo, Krillin, 18 and anyone else) in strength until AFTER Roast. If Gotenks was stronger than those fighters before, then that statement makes ZERO sense. Also, Gohan's bio states that he is indeed stronger than Gotenks. ''
Are you seriously saying Krillin, 18 and Piccolo are stronger than Gotenks?
THE Krillin who shat himself at the thought of facing the Base kids seperated at the Budokai?THE 18 who had to use cheap tactic to disqualify the kids at the Budokai to get past them?
Piccolo, who called the kids without fusion last hope and was overwhelmed by their full SSJ power?
Except that was clearly Gohan after E.K. unlocked his power.

''No matter how incredible Gotenks power is, he's not beating Buu in 1 minute, this again doesn't prove he was on Buu's level.''
If Gotenks were no match for Fat Boo at all, the time limit wouldn't even matter.

 

[Kidbuu55]

The wording in the Viz quote doesn't relate to Gotenks' chances against Fat Boo.
Piccolo is essentially saying:''Didn't you YET realize the Fusion isn't enough to beat this new Boo''.
Viz's translation also sometime completely changes the quotes in order to make the story more readable and to make it fit in the panels.

That's not what he's saying - he states that the power of Gotenks hasn't been enough to face Buu yet. He doesn't specify between the new and old Buu.

Krillin thought Base Gotenks might win against Boo, so his ki sensing doesn't mean anything.

No he did not.

Like I've said, the kids are kids and so when Boo looks drastically different, his appearance is what they are gonna first notice.

They didn't notice power at all (just like Krillin) until Piccolo mentions it.

Piccolo isn't unsure, when immediately later he comments on him being better at everything and states Gotenks will lose.

He is, I literally provided you with the quote of Krillin and Piccolo's conversation. Later, when Buu appears at the lookout is when he changes his stance.

They appear amazed.Anyway, the Daizenshuu you like to use outright says Boo had a super power up when he became Evil Boo.

I don't fully disagree that Evil Buu is stronger, but the kids didn't notice it..and NOW you trust the Daizenshuu?

Yeah, but SSJ Gotenks didn't fight evenly with Evil Boo nor was he ever on par with him.

Who said anything about this? Piccolo just stated that SSJ3 Gotenks was the strongest person Buu had ever faced, a distinction he did not make when Gotenks was a SSJ1. Meaning the previous benchmark was SSJ3 GOKU, and NOW it's Gotenks.

SSJ1 Gotenks is treated as a measuring stick for Evil Boo's power.

WHen, and by who?

The Daizenshuu books you like to bring up outright say that.
They didn't even fight at the Budokai and Vegeta even outright implies that, when they make the ''No SSJ rule''.

Again, when is this stated?

Do you believe that Accended SSJ (grade 2 and 3) are all 50 times base power too?

Are you seriously saying Krillin, 18 and Piccolo are stronger than Gotenks?

I'm saying that Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta, Piccolo, Kaioshin, and SSJ2 Gohan until AFTER the Rosat.

THE Krillin who shat himself at the thought of facing the Base kids seperated at the Budokai?THE 18 who had to use cheap tactic to disqualify the kids at the Budokai to get past them?
Piccolo, who called the kids without fusion last hope and was overwhelmed by their full SSJ power?

I believe 18 is on par or stronger than the boys, and Piccolo is even stronger still. You can be surprised by someone's power without them being stronger than you.

Saiyan Saga Goku was weaker than Vegeta, but he (Vegeta) was still surprised at how strong Goku was.

Except that was clearly Gohan after E.K. unlocked his power.

Huh?

If Gotenks were no match for Fat Boo at all, the time limit wouldn't even matter.

Agreed, but Piccolo was pointing out the most obvious at the time. He was fine with a weaker Gotenks fighting Buu, as evidenced by SSJ1 Gotenks fighting Buu in the ROSAT chamber.

 

[ahill1]

Again, he did not. The scene shows Buu asking Goku is this new fighter will be strong (not stronger, not as strong, just strong) Goku ignores the question.

Again, it happens he replying to Boo was just not shown. It didn't mean he didn't reply to him. Right after Boo killed Babidi he said:

"I don't wanna be bored 'til the strong guys come."

^It implies he got a response. When Boo asked Goku if they are strong, Goku probably said: "they are even stronger than me", like what he told to Piccolo.

Goku tells Piccolo a few lies, including that he doesn't even believe he could stop Buu, and follows up with it's a GAMBLE to rely on fusion and the kids.

And later that was contradicted. Not only this,but even before Goku flat out stated he could defeat Fat Boo all along it was already implied he could have done this in the Piccolo's conversation.

Krillin, Roshi and everyone else are surprised at Gotenks Ki in base

Why wouldn't they be?

Later Krillin and Piccolo have a discussion about Buu and Gotenks, with Krillin stating <b>"Goku said</b> fusion is the strongest" as it's not something he observed himself personally. Piccolo expresses his own doubts as well, stating "That would be nice, <b>BUT..."</b>

But this was after Evil Boo formed, who is better than Fat Boo at everything.

Even in ROSAT, when Gotenks fails to beat Buu, Piccolo comments that Gotenks did better than he expected, meaning that him even managing to fight near Buu's level wasn't something he expected him to be able to do.

Yeah, because Evil Boo is so much stronger than Fat Boo that Piccolo isn't sure that even an improved Gotenks could beat him.

Gotenks is substantially weaker than Goku, and according to the guidebook (daizenshuu 7) he doesn't even surpass Vegeta until SSJ3

The Daizenshuu does not specify which form it was referring to. It could very well be talking about his base form.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

But this was after Evil Boo formed, who is better than Fat Boo at everything.

Everything =/= power

 

[Kidbuu55]

Again, he did not. The scene shows Buu asking Goku is this new fighter will be strong (not stronger, not as strong, just strong) Goku ignores the question.

Again, it happens he replying to Boo was just not shown. It didn't mean he didn't reply to him. Right after Boo killed Babidi he said:

"I don't wanna be bored 'til the strong guys come."

^It implies he got a response. When Boo asked Goku if they are strong, Goku probably said: "they are even stronger than me", like what he told to Piccolo.

No he does not. The scene just switches to Goku again, he doesn't answer the question and keeps on talking. You can't just MAKE UP things that aren't there.

Goku tells Piccolo a few lies, including that he doesn't even believe he could stop Buu, and follows up with it's a GAMBLE to rely on fusion and the kids.

And later that was contradicted. Not only this,but even before Goku flat out stated he could defeat Fat Boo all along it was already implied he could have done this in the Piccolo's conversation.

Huh, when did Goku admit he could beat Fat Buu BEFORE the Kid Buu fight?

Krillin, Roshi and everyone else are surprised at Gotenks Ki in base

Why wouldn't they be?

Is this a question...?

Later Krillin and Piccolo have a discussion about Buu and Gotenks, with Krillin stating <b>"Goku said</b> fusion is the strongest" as it's not something he observed himself personally. Piccolo expresses his own doubts as well, stating "That would be nice, <b>BUT..."</b>

But this was after Evil Boo formed, who is better than Fat Boo at everything.

Again, Krillin doesn't know this, he still thinks that Evil Buu = Fat Buu.

Even in ROSAT, when Gotenks fails to beat Buu, Piccolo comments that Gotenks did better than he expected, meaning that him even managing to fight near Buu's level wasn't something he expected him to be able to do.

Yeah, because Evil Boo is so much stronger than Fat Boo that Piccolo isn't sure that even an improved Gotenks could beat him.

OR, that Gotenks could beat him at all. This can go either way honestly.

Gotenks is substantially weaker than Goku, and according to the guidebook (daizenshuu 7) he doesn't even surpass Vegeta until SSJ3

The Daizenshuu does not specify which form it was referring to. It could very well be talking about his base form.

No, if he could surpass Vegeta in his base form, then it would he surpassed Vegeta in general PRE ROSAT. They are specifically speaking of max power, as Gotenks is said to have "leveled up in strength" with SSJ3 and as a result surpassed Vegeta.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

You're so genius.

 

[Kidbuu55]

You're so genius.

No need to be rude.

 

[Tapion]

Base Gotenks one-shots.
And i'm BACK! Though i think that nobody noticed my hiatus anyway.

And please, tell me that the guy above didn't come to Zeta to shove his stuff down our throats. I thought that when Tosh was suspensed, this ended.

 

[ahill1]

I missed you Tapion.

 

[Tapion]

I missed you Tapion.

Well, at least someone missed me ;d

 

[Kidbuu55]

I didn't.

Anyhow Gotenks is weaker than Goku by multifolds, per Toriyama.

 

[Six Trails]

According to these power levels that Toriyama approved, Gotenks is stronger than Goku: https://dragonballfact.wordpress.com/