Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

[SIAD]

I think vegeta is around 90-95 for base given how he needed a majin boost for super saiyan 2 he was probably around base goku level or on par

gohan 60 or 75

Pui pui: 10

Regular saiyans: 0.5

Android 18: Above 100

Kaioshin: Above 100

Everyone else: 0.9-4

Piccolo: Above 100

And Goku Base?

 

[MikaelHarding]

And Goku Base?

100

 

[Goku9001]

100

He can't be at a 100 if Vegeta is at a 90-95. Goku's Super Saiyan 2 Burst on Yakon hadn't surpassed Kid Gohan yet and it was still greater than Vegeta's power. Goku should be at a 110 as a bare minimum.

Goku:
~Burst: 100
~Full Power: 110
Kid Gohan: 105
Vegeta: 90

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don’t think the boys can be Cell Jr level with this logic. Keep in mind that Piccolo > Post Rosat Base Boys.

Using OP’s numbers, I doubt CG Base Vegeta (Where the Base Boys should be at) is any less than 20 while Piccolo isn’t even a 10.

 

[MikaelHarding]

He can't be at a 100 if Vegeta is at a 90-95. Goku's Super Saiyan 2 Burst on Yakon hadn't surpassed Kid Gohan yet and it was still greater than Vegeta's power. Goku should be at a 110 as a bare minimum.

Goku:
~Burst: 100
~Full Power: 110
Kid Gohan: 105
Vegeta: 90

Only ssj2 is far stronger than ssj vegeta the gap between goku ssj and ssj vegeta is not that large in fact vegeta didn't seem to worry until goku busted out a glimpse of ssj2

 

[Goku9001]

Only ssj2 is far stronger than ssj vegeta the gap between goku ssj and ssj vegeta is not that large in fact vegeta didn't seem to worry until goku busted out a glimpse of ssj2

Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Also, you can only make Base CG Trunks so strong. I'm fine with him being significantly stronger than the Future Androids. It's really not that big of a problem. There's evidence he's very strong based on the Base Boys power as well as Trunks vs Imperfect Cell.

This is truly a difficult puzzle, the Base boys are so much weaker than the Adults and it's quite ridiculous.

And also, the Base Adults seem to be way stronger than the CG powers, which shouldn't be possible.

Hmm... I would love to progress this a bit more.

Let's try again.

Goku 100
Kid Gohan 90
Vegeta 80
Gohan 60
Pui Pui 50
Expected Saiyan 35
Kaioshin 30
Piccolo 20
Base Boys Post 15
Base Boys Pre 10
Android 18 10

This is definitely getting much better for sure. This really isn't half bad II'd say. What do you guys think?

 

[Yoshi]

I agree. I’ve always been Base Adults > Piccolo, but the evidence for Base Gohan ~ Base Boys was always flimsy at best to me.

Gohan being stronger than his Cell Games counterpart makes things iffy though. He might as well be equal to him to avoid any major inconsistencies however, since you could argue Ki doesn’t atrophy.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Gohan being stronger than his Cell Games counterpart makes things iffy though. He might as well be equal to him to avoid any major inconsistencies however, since you could argue Ki doesn’t atrophy.

Yeah, he's going to have to be weaker. That makes things quite difficult to explain. Not exactly sure what to do.

I mean, the boys can be a bit weaker than the Cell Jrs, so that's still doable. I think we'd have to make them at least a good bit weaker to make this list doable.

Probably gotta squeeze the Piccolo/Kaioshin gap a bit more too.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo = his CGs self [likely maxed after the RoSaT... Which turns out to be 80% of the Cell Juniors, more or less]

SSJ Goten and Trunks = Cell Junior

Kaioshin = reaching 90% of SSJ CGs Goku. A 60/100 advantage over Piccolo.

Sounds very good.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Also, you can only make Base CG Trunks so strong. I'm fine with him being significantly stronger than the Future Androids. It's really not that big of a problem. There's evidence he's very strong based on the Base Boys power as well as Trunks vs Imperfect Cell.

This is truly a difficult puzzle, the Base boys are so much weaker than the Adults and it's quite ridiculous.

And also, the Base Adults seem to be way stronger than the CG powers, which shouldn't be possible.

Hmm... I would love to progress this a bit more.

Let's try again.

Goku 100
Kid Gohan 90
Vegeta 80
Gohan 60
Pui Pui 50
Expected Saiyan 35
Kaioshin 30
Piccolo 20
Base Boys Post 15
Base Boys Pre 10
Android 18 10

This is definitely getting much better for sure. This really isn't half bad II'd say. What do you guys think?

This is what I got:

Goku: 150
Vegeta: 120
Gohan: 100

Yakon: 140
Pui Pui: 70
Shin: 60
Piccolo: 40
Android 18: 15
Base boys: 12/12.5 (No distinction between pre and post)

Expected Saiyans are based on what Dabra saw from 300 years ago. What says they're > Kaioshin? Babidi can't use Shin's energy so that doesn't count.

 

[FeatsofPower]

This is what I got:

Goku: 150
Vegeta: 120
Gohan: 100

Yakon: 140
Pui Pui: 70
Shin: 60
Piccolo: 40
Android 18: 15
Base boys: 12/12.5 (No distinction between pre and post)

Expected Saiyans are based on what Dabra saw from 300 years ago. What says there > Kaioshin? Babidi can't use Shin's energy so that doesn't count.

The Pui Pui vs Shin gap has to be s massive. Pui Pui should be capable of defeating 3 fighters with superior strength to Shin.

Pui Pui >>= 3 Expected Saiyans > Shin

Because Shin acknowledges the Saiyans as his superiors and so does Badbi and co.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Pui Pui vs Shin gap has to be s massive. Pui Pui should be capable of defeating 3 fighters with superior strength to Shin.

Pui Pui >>= 3 Expected Saiyans > Shin

Because Shin acknowledges the Saiyans as his superiors and so does Badbi and co.

Shin does ask their help, so that's something. But then he thinks they totally need him too. "I can't abandon you to your own idiocy", he says. He wants to fight, so he's not totally useless, it's just that the Saiyans wanted to fight alone.

Babidi is only concerned about collecting energy. Shin is a complete non factor to him.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Babidi is only concerned about collecting energy. Shin is a complete non factor to him.

Exactly.

Which is why we know...

Pui Pui >> Expected Saiyans > Shin

Shin is a non-factor. And he's not powerful enough to stop the threat on his own, he needs to work with them. That's the entire point. He's not in a position of power. Put it this way, if he could easily wipe them out except for Dabura, he wouldn't need to be too stressed. The Saiyans won't to do it on their own, fine, if things get bad, he steps in. But no, he can't take that approach, because he is helpless and dependent on their power getting the job done. Hence the risk and idiocy behind their decision-making in his view. His entire view is comprised of one lacking power and authority.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Exactly.

Which is why we know...

Pui Pui >> Expected Saiyans > Shin

Shin is a non-factor. And he's not powerful enough to stop the threat on his own, he needs to work with them. That's the entire point. He's not in a position of power. Put it this way, if he could easily wipe them out except for Dabura, he wouldn't need to be too stressed. The Saiyans won't to do it on their own, fine, if things get bad, he steps in. But no, he can't take that approach, because he is helpless and dependent on their power getting the job done. Hence the risk and idiocy behind their decision-making in his view. His entire view is comprised of one lacking power and authority.

But there's two problems...

1) Shin doesn't know how strong this threat is. It takes Dabra for him to start losing his shit. And I'm not sure if Babidi knows how strong Shin is, since he can't sense Ki and got folded by Piccolo.

2) Wouldn't Shin letting the Saiyans do it on their own mean he's confident they're >> him? Being worried sounds like he's not expecting them to blow him out of the water like that. And I think he'd be worried regardless because he doesn't want to take chances.

 

[Pakl]

Lol. Pui Pui is a weakling. The whole thing in Babidi's spaceship was likely a call back for the previous enemies. Pui Pui being Saiyan Saga Vegeta. Yakon being Freeza and Dabura being Cell.

 

[FeatsofPower]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Shin makes assumptions about the strength of Badibi's warriors. "Badibi only collects the strongest warriors in existence..."

@Pakl

Unlikely since Badibi only collects the strongest in the entire universe. He has even continued his search into the Demon Realm of all places. Pui Pui is so strong that Badibi doesn't have anyone else who can easily manhandle him besides Yakon and Dabura, the king of the Demon Realm.

Pui Pui is suggested to be able to defeat not only the Supreme Kaioshin of the universe, but 3 warriors of superior strength to the greatest diety (at the time) in the universe. Pui Pui simply cannot be anything other than what he is suggested to be, one of the strongest fighters in the universe.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Hmm, I wonder if I have been neglecting Goku's advantage over Vegeta too much. I think I have been.

There's really no reason for Vegeta to have closed the gap on Goku at all, the gap should be just as massive as it was during the Cell Games. Since Vegeta says, "I couldn't close the gap." Now, this doesn't have to be taken so literal, but, I think it should be. The idea that they gained equal power alongside each other sounds right. But Goku is just always one step ahead. I think this is the best way especially to make other key things like up.

This allows for Kid Gohan to have a significant rage boost, which seems likely as well instead of the typical 1.2x I am forced to give. It allows the CG powers to pale in comparison to the Buu Saga powers as it feels.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Shin makes assumptions about the strength of Badibi's warriors. "Badibi only collects the strongest warriors in existence..."

And they are very powerful. We're already giving him a lot of credit by placing him above Kaioshin, but back then Freeza was the absolute strongest in the universe, so I understand people who place him below Freeza. Yakon is from the demon realm though, so he's easily above Freeza.

Anyway I don't really disagree with you here, I just think it you need that much room to make it work. Shin though Saiyans were stronger than him but he knew about SSJ. When he forgot, he thought they were weaker than him. If he hadn't forgotten, I'm sure he'd have been alright the whole time.

Babidi and Dabra are expecting people weaker than Raditz. Look at all the evidence: Dabra basing his estimations on 300 years ago (Mutaito's era), they think SSJ2 Gohan's energy was a bunch of normal people. And in Babidi's head, surely he'd have heard of and recruited some Earthlings were they that strong? Stronger than the Supreme Kai?

Hmm, I wonder if I have been neglecting Goku's advantage over Vegeta too much. I think I have been.

There's really no reason for Vegeta to have closed the gap on Goku at all, the gap should be just as massive as it was during the Cell Games. Since Vegeta says, "I couldn't close the gap." Now, this doesn't have to be taken so literal, but, I think it should be. The idea that they gained equal power alongside each other sounds right. But Goku is just always one step ahead. I think this is the best way especially to make other key things like up.

This allows for Kid Gohan to have a significant rage boost, which seems likely as well instead of the typical 1.2x I am forced to give. It allows the CG powers to pale in comparison to the Buu Saga powers as it feels.

It's possible, but I'm running with the 2x multiplier and running with SSJ Goku being close to SSJ2 Vegeta sounds nasty. If the multiplier was 4-5x SSJ1, I surely would keep the 1.5x gap.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Babidi and Dabra are expecting people weaker than Raditz. Look at all the evidence: Dabra basing his estimations on 300 years ago (Mutaito's era), they think SSJ2 Gohan's energy was a bunch of normal people. And in Babidi's head, surely he'd have heard of and recruited some Earthlings were they that strong? Stronger than the Supreme Kai?

This is the issue with your argument.

How can you answer the following?

Did Badibi expect Pui Pui to kill the Saiyans in front of Kaioshin? What did he expect Kaioshin to do while Pui Pui was killing them?