Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

[ahill1]

I think I have Pui Pui just way weaker than you guys imply here haha, for me he could be anywhere, like even 3rd form Freeza's level seems okay since his head resembles Freeza's a little. I can give him some credit tho and place him at 140,000,000 so Vegeta was beating up former Freeza's power easily with just his base, that's impressive.

Yakon would be a #16's level opponent and Goku is tied up with him. I remember I tried to make the base Saiyans really strong in the Boo saga once, having them like at the Cell Juniors levels or above using very reduced SSJs multiplier but it just didn't work. I had something like this iirc:

Piccolo (CGs) : 2,500,000,000
SSJ Vegeta (CGs) : 3,000,000,000
Cell Juniors : 3,150,000,000

base Vegeta (boo saga) : 3,150,000,000
base Goku (boo saga) : 3,750,000,000
Yakon : 3,750,000,000

SSJ Vegeta (boo saga) : 6,300,000,000
SSJ Goku (boo saga) : 7,500,000,000

base Gohan (boo saga) : 2,625,000,000

Piccolo I'd assume maxed out post RoSaT and remained at 2,500,000,000. They'd be all above Piccolo using a 2x multiplier for SSJ, but then I'd have to assume all the adult Saiyans managed to bring their bases way closer to the SSJ but the kids still had a way bigger SSJ multiplier as to keep their bases around #18 while not being way below the adults. In this case, the kids would need to be above Cell Juniors as well, considerably so, since I just can't have base Vegeta at the same level as SSJ kid Trunks, no way considering Vegeta used SSJ to test him in the gravity room. And there was not enough space to fit Kaioshin, while being >>> Piccolo ans << base Saiyans.

So yeah, I just ditched the idea altogether and found it easier to write some things down and have a better approach of the things as a whole.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You gotta pump up the Cell Saga a lot to fit this Piccolo stuff. USSJ is 10x ASSJ and then 50% might be a couple times USSJ Trunks.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Gohan probably knows Vegeta is stronger than him.

Sure, but the idea that Pui Pui would threaten Gohan seems absurd. They are all super confident, I think Gohan washes Pui Pui. At least a 1.33x advantage.

 

[FeatsofPower]

You gotta pump up the Cell Saga a lot to fit this Piccolo stuff. USSJ is 10x ASSJ and then 50% might be a couple times USSJ Trunks.

Why?

 

[Yoshi]

I agree. Toriyama either forgot Piccolo went into the ROSAT, or he retconned his boost, because Cell Games Piccolo is still implied to be Cell Junior tier. If we go the retcon route, a x2 increase is appropriate.

I also agree that we have to pump up the Cell Saga either way, LOL. I have Semi x2 #16, Perfect x2.5 Vegeta, and Imperfect x3 Piccolo. If I ever choose to nerf Piccolo’s increase in the ROSAT, I would have to widen the gaps, LMAO!

 

[ahill1]

If you kept the SSJ as 50x, then yeah, you'd have to assume Piccolo was very weak post rosat, like initial Semi Cell level, then make astonishing gaps for the others. And then assume the kids' SSJ boost was even bigger than 50x, or assume they were way weaker than the adults, like the difference between Semi Cell and #18.

If you have variable and low multipliers, you can have Piccolo as strong in the CGs, but would also need to assume the base kids were wayyyy lower than the base adults while the gap in SSJ was way less pronounced while also being just pretty hard to do a chain of base Saiyans >>> Pui Pui >>> Kaioshin >>> Piccolo while having Piccolo strong in the CGs, there would be no way for that. For that chain, you'd have to assume Piccolo was just wayyy behind Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs and while the multipliers then not needing to be that low, it being relatively low would help, specially to avoid huge gaps in the Cell saga, like warm up Cell being 5x Super Vegeta... base to SSJ kids ratio being different from adults would need to be assumed all the same.

That's just way too many things to change to me... since that part of the story leaves inconsistencies one way or the other, I just prefer to think the base Saiyans >> Piccolo implications fall into the shaky implications from that saga that don't hold up that much.

There's also the other option of making Shin way weaker than Piccolo and below the base Saiyans, all while maintaining Piccolo relevant to the Cell Juniors in the CGs, and assume Shin was, like, 18's level or so to have the base Saiyans way above him.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Nah, Piccolo is garbage. We are talking Buu Saga here. This is a Buu Saga only discussion really. And Super as well.

Everything in the Buu Saga on suggests that Piccolo is straight trash. The boys are only around 18's power yet are seen as a respectable power so there's limits here.


Goku 150
Yakon 135
Vegeta 90
Gohan 60
Pui Pui 45
Expected Saiyans 30
Kaioshin 25
Piccolo 15


Goku has the same advantage over Vegeta as he did in the CG. Allowing for Kid Gohan's rage boost to be substantial.

I'm kind of liking this.

Wow, Base Goku 10x Piccolo is something else ain't it? My goodness. But this is probably about as accurate as it gets for what we are actually being shown.


Let's see what I can get when working in reverse for the CGs.

Gohan 75
Goku 50
Vegeta/Trunks 30


Hmm. Even with all of this finagling, it's hard to get CG Vegeta/Trunks = Base Boys, but it's gotten way closer for sure. It's somewhat within reach. But this is really the max I can make it work.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm not sure about this Gohan >>> Pui Pui stuff. Would Vegeta not stomp Gohan in a very similar way if they fought?

Going by what Vegeta says about the gap between him and Goku being the same:

Goku: 150
Yakon: 135
Vegeta: 100
Gohan: 75
Pui Pui: 67.5
Expected SSJs: 60
Shin: 50
Piccolo: 30

I'm not sure about Vegeta > CG Gohan (Without rage). What makes you think that?

Why?

Because the MSSJs are like 500x stronger than Post Rosat Piccolo.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Why wouldn't Gohan stomp Pui Pui?

 

[ahill1]

So you think there's a separate Piccolo for Boo saga and for the CGs? And differing multipliers for the kids?

 

[Animelover5487]

Idk tbh, there is really nothing that solidly implies that Piccolo was close to the Super Saiyans during the CG anyway.

In the manga, only Vegeta and Trunks were keeping up with the Cell Juniors.

 

[FeatsofPower]

So you think there's a separate Piccolo for Boo saga and for the CGs? And differing multipliers for the kids?

It seems like AT changed his mind. Why would there be different multipliers for the kids?

 

[Goku9001]

It's a mess. Maybe Piccolo became 1.33x stronger from the RoSaT and that's enough to be a completely different person.

 

[Animelover5487]

It's a mess. Maybe Piccolo became 1.33x stronger from the RoSaT and that's enough to be a completely different person.

Well Vegeta was portrayed as being tiers above his Saiyan arc self after his Zenkai with that same amp.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo can definitely be at least 2x stronger Post Rosat. I’m sure it’s doable.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Piccolo can definitely be at least 2x stronger Post Rosat. I’m sure it’s doable.

Show us.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I’m sure we’d love to make Piccolo Super Vegeta level, but I don’t know. That whole semi cell is unnatural should be telling I’d say. It’s likely he isn’t even past Android 16 sadly.

 

[Goku9001]

Piccolo can definitely be at least 2x stronger Post Rosat. I’m sure it’s doable.

If you make the Boys piss weak, then sure. The Base Kids were evidently on par with Android 18 and yet the Base Adults surpass Kaioshin. To make it so that the Boys aren't that far from the Adults, you're going to have to minimize the gains that Piccolo made.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

As long as SSJ Boys > Base Adults it’s all fair play to me.

I doubt Piccolo is Super Vegeta level, but a 1.33x boost? Come on. That’s not a “whole different level” if Imperfect Cell could still tank and one shot him.

 

[SIAD]

The gaps that the series delivers are not good. Goku at 60,000 was more than twice as powerful as the Ginyus, but by his numbers the gap is 1.5x.