Black, ToP and Moro arcs power levels

[Papasmurf]

Because that's the point of the statement.

That is later contradicted by Piccolo stating that Gohan > #17 when ToP #17 was stated to be just about as strong as Galu, plus Vados called Kefla the most ideal warrior and it was noted that fusing improved her power from her unfused halves (plus Kale by herself was able to break Galu's defense, beat up Golden Freeza, and almost knock Vegeta off).

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm talking about ToP Gohan so I'm not sure what the Moro arc has to do with anything.

 

[Papasmurf]

I'm talking about ToP Gohan so I'm not sure what the Moro arc has to do with anything.

This Gohan was in his nerdy outfit (Piccolo literally had to make him a new Gi) and had yet to train with Piccolo in preparation for Moro's invasion.

 

[Future Warrior]

Then I guess he's stronger than #17, just not by much.

 

[SSJ2]

Does this imply Kefla < All U7 Saiyans?
View attachment 493

Also if you take this statement literally, Kefla didn't beat a single Saiyan. The quote about not measuring up to U7 can be taken broadly. This doesn't have to mean that Goku/Vegeta were stronger than Kefla.

 

[Papasmurf]

Then I guess he's stronger than #17, just not by much.

If it was only by a little then #17 would likely win due to infinite stamina though. "Strongest warrior on Earth" implies that Gohan would definitely win even if it's not a stomp.

 

[Future Warrior]

Skill and strategy can allow you to work around that issue. Piccolo would have beaten #17 at the end of the day when they fought.

 

[Papasmurf]

Skill and strategy can allow you to work around that issue. Piccolo would have beaten #17 at the end of the day when they fought.

That's only if assuming #17 would give him the time to charge the Gekiretsu Kodan. Against Cell, Cell knew Piccolo's ultimate attack was no threat at all and literally stood there and took it on purpose. #17 didn't give him the opening to do it prior to Cell's intervention and even noted that he was starting to take the upper hand because their powers were similar, but his stamina doesn't run out. Plus, Piccolo has centuries of fighting experience from the memories of Kami/Daimao while Gohan isn't even 25 years old and barely trained for half that time. Future Trunks seems more skilled than Gohan is and he was still derided for being a novice.

 

[Future Warrior]

A well placed Kamehameha could take him out I feel.

 

[Papasmurf]

I don't see Gohan's Kamehameha breaking #17's barrier if an attack that would've killed #17 if the barrier wasn't up (Piccolo's Hellzone Grenade) didn't even scratch the barrier.

Plus, you'd have to assume Goku was toying with Kale for some reason despite clearly using more effort than Golden Freeza did (Freeza and Goku were apparently even when they fought in Hell), and that Potara's increase for Kale/Caulifla was completely negligible which isn't suggested by Vados and the gay pride troopers.

 

[Future Warrior]

The potato fusion wasn’t a huge power boost in comparison to Kale. She got stronger but it was other attributes that mainly improved.
Goku - 10
Gohan/Kefla - 9
#17 - 8
Kale - 6

 

[Papasmurf]

SSJR Black was way weaker than Kale and ended up on CSSJB tier from fusing with someone that he can oneshot. I also don't see why Vados would comment that Kefla was the ideal warrior if she were below the CSSJB Galu that initial Jiren was stomping together with Hit.

 

[Future Warrior]

She’s the ideal warrior in theory but it doesn’t mean she could beat Jiren or whatever. Nothing that Vados said was supposed to be definitive.

 

[Papasmurf]

Hit had feats comparable to PSSJB Goku when they attacked Jiren together and could slow him down on top of that. If Kefla's essentially inferior to him, I don't see why she'd call her the ideal warrior. At the very least, she should be able to beat Hit even while slowed down. I honestly can't see PSSJB Galu doing the same.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ch. 9, pg. 27.7
Context: Frost and Goku resume their fight after Frost has transformed
Champa: “That’s it! Frost is one step ahead.”
Vados: “Of course. He’s the strongest warrior in our universe.”

Does this set a precedent for Vados being a liar to Champa for some reason? Or is Frost really > Magetta?

 

[Future Warrior]

I just said that she's saying that might be the case in theory. Nothing that she said was definitive. She uses a lot of ''perhaps'' and ''might'' in her statements. Clearly she was proven wrong.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Talking about Hit shouldn’t Kuririn know how strong Goku is via Hit? Golden Freeza’s power can be sensed too. The “Goku couldn’t be sensed” is really weak tbf.

 

[Papasmurf]

Golden Freeza confirmed he wasn't serious/was suppressed against Kale though. And Vados strongly implies that Kefla > Hit anyway, since saying that Kefla is the ideal warrior despite her being inferior to Hit would be like if Fat Boo took out SSJ2 Majin Vegeta first, and Piccolo while watching called SSJ2 Gohan the ideal warrior. It'd be retarded.

 

[Pyro]

Hit was going all-out against Jiren, though. Wouldn't Krillin be able to gauge based off that?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, Kuririn is no unreliable source since he saw Hit in action and he rivaled Goku. So did Vados, but the “perfect fighter” thing was in reference to her having Caulifla’s brains and Kale’s muscles.