Controversial beliefs

[GSM123]

Is there a reason why you believe Vegeta is that strong?

Nope, just like to make my shit up 2

Joking, i do

 

[SIAD]

Is there a reason why you believe Vegeta is that strong?

I have no problems with having Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin) on Kid Gohan SSJ2. After all, Vegeta hoped to beat Gohan before he knew he had loosened up. Even if Vegeta had thought that Gohan would not have SSJ2 without getting angry, he still thought that he would be the most powerful if they all fought in Base state.

 

[Kyo]

Wait -- what's the consensus on pre Majin Vegeta vs Kid Gohan these days? I'd have them equal bare minimum

 

[Kyo]

• Goku's SSJ form at the Cell Games is as strong as it ever got.

• 
  
  This one is different. Why?

• 
  
  Also I was gonna get to this but later, because I quite frankly don't remember very well
  
  It has to do with what Goku says to Vegeta after exiting the RoSaT, where he essentially talks about his power peaking in there

 

[Void]

Wait -- what's the consensus on pre Majin Vegeta vs Kid Gohan these days? I'd have them equal bare minimum

I have him close to CG SS2 Gohan, but I started a thread to try and get some activity on it; http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13565

 

[Kyo]

K. I'd actually be cool with him being close to but weaker than Gohan. I remember the opinion that Kid Gohan was significantly stronger (or at least quite noticeably stronger) used to be pretty dominant.

 

[Kyo]

• Goku's SSJ form at the Cell Games is as strong as it ever got.

• 
  
  This one is different. Why?

• 
  
  I found an old post in which I explain it a bit. Wouldn't really be able to elaborate much at this moment, but I left you hanging so I figured I'd leave this here. There's not much to it though.
  
  
  ---
  Whether I agree or disagree, I'm not sure. I do find the idea plausible, however.
  
  When Goku exited the Room of Spirit and Time, he said, "But pointlessly toughening up my body more than this is just torture, not training. But I won't object if you guys enter that room again. It looks like you still have room left to toughen up more." Some have argued that he just means that the RoSaT training itself is now relatively ineffective due to his vast improvements, but to me the wording indicates that he's only speaking about how much he (and Trunks/Vegeta) can improve in general. Plus, calling further training "torture" certainly sounds like he can still exert himself, he just won't see any benefits if he does so.
  
  For what it's worth, here's what the Daizenshuu has to say:
  
  

  Goku trained in the Room of Spirit and Time before his fight with Cell. He draws out the power of the Super Saiyan to its limits, and the aura that surrounds him is different.

  http://web.archive.org/web/20120308230017/http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.php?m=04&id=grow_up#link
  
  "...draws out the power...to its limits..." sounds like he can't improve anymore. The Daizenshuu term for the Mastered SSJ, "Full Power Super Saiyan," also seems to hint at this -- it's the literal full power that Goku can ever achieve in that form.
  
  Some things do seem to go against it though. For example, Vegeta saying that if all the Saiyans are restricted to base, then there's no difference (before the tournament in the Boo arc). Perhaps one can assume that base increases as SSJ2 increases, whereas SSJ stays the same. Very strange scenario but nothing explicitly goes against it.
  
  Goku's SSJ increasing in the Boo arc also wouldn't be the first time someone surpassed a supposed limit (if I recall, the holy water on Karin's tower was supposed to unlock all of Goku's hidden power, though perhaps there's a difference between hidden power and the potential for strength increases, I dunno).
  ---
  
  
  It seems I wasn't entirely convinced of the stance at the time. I actually don't remember if I ever was convinced, come to think of it. It's not really a big deal whether you go with it or not anyway, there's not much of a reason to but it doesn't really affect much if you do. I sort of like the idea of it, personally, it's just odd because their base states are never stated to hit a similar limit at any point (well, there might have been some throwaway statement like that at some point during that Freeza arc that was swiftly disregarded or something, not sure).

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

- I don't think TFS is funny
- Saiyan Saga is the weakest saga in Z (not to say it's bad)
- Makyo Star arc was actually pretty good
- SSJ Gogeta > Super Gohan Buu
- Kaioshin > Piccolo
- SSJ2 Ragehan > Super Perfect Cell >= SSJ2 Kid Gohan
- Baby is the only good villain from GT being one of my overall favorites
- Buu Saga Goku/Vegeta > M10 Broly
- Cell Games Z-Fighters > M8 Z-Fighters
- SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks (Pre)
- Buu Vegeta (Pre-Majin) >= Cell Games Gohan
- Base Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 GT Goku = SSJ Vegetto
- Resurrection of Frieza was disappointing (save for the Goku vs. Frieza fight)
- Base Saiyans > Frieza
- Goten GT > Pan
- SSJ Vegetto > SSJ Gogeta > Gohan Buu > Gotenks Buu >= Base Vegetto > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Base Gogeta > SSJ2 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks (Post) > SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks (Pre) > Base Gotenks (Post) > SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta > Base Gotenks Pre
- Vegetto and Gogeta are equals best case scenario for Gogeta other wise I'd have Gogeta being 33-50% of Vegetto

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Gohan's potential is the highest of anyone. Including Cell or Freeza or Broly, or Goten or Trunks or whoever you can think of. None of the new stuff can change that, even if it tried.

I thought this before DragonBall Super but apparently there were people who didn't think that but all half-Saiyans we see in the series have higher potential than Goku, including Future Trunks.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Goten being as powerful as Gohan at the start of the Buu Saga

 

[Captain Cadaver]

This seems like a thread worth bumping now we've gotten a lot more material. Also, retracted some of the points I made in my first post due to changing my mind on some of the matters.

Anyway, some new ones:

- DBS Broly was the most poorly written and damaging film of the franchise (not counting DBE), the fact it was meant to be canon making its plot holes and CIS far more damaging than those of many of the older films when it came to the direction of Freeza's character and the power creep of Broly's power.
- Boo Arc > Cell Arc. Clear focus for its conflict that allowed a character to be relevant beyond power trumps convoluted time travel plot that retconned several pieces of information, couldn't stick to a clear idea of its main villain and rewrote several characters.
- DBS Manga > DBS Anime (both are still though).
- Gohan's character was at his best during the Saiyan/Freeza Arcs.
- Future Gohan isn't as interesting as his main timeline self. He does have some defining qualities in his confidence in taking on #17 and #18 being quickly destroyed and his calm leadership in realising it's better to protect Trunks at the cost of his own life, but beyond that he may as well just be Goku.
- Pan isn't a terrible character in GT. The worst thing about her character on an objective level would be how her internal development pretty much stops at the Baby Arc and how she got sidelined completely in the Yi Xing Long fight despite her relevance prior.
- Non-Canon Broly's motivations aren't the absolute worst of any villain in the series and he's at least better written than some of the other movie villains (at least in Movie 8 ).
- Yamcha had the potential to be one of the most interesting characters in the series if he hadn't been shafted after the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai to being the guy who preps the bull for Goku's main opponent and eventually becoming a joke in Z.
- Shin was more relevant to the plot events of the Boo Arc than Future Trunks was to those of the Cell Arc.
- Gero being able to create Artificial Humans stronger than Freeza through Earthly technology isn't as ridiculous as it sounds on paper.
- Goku isn't as awful a father as people like to say (at least not in the Saiyan/Freeza Arcs).
- Dragon Ball's original run (DB and Z) > One Piece.

 

[PorchMaster]

- The Red Ribbon arc was the weakest arc of the original series, barring the Cell and Boo arcs. Gets even worse when you lump the Baba mini-arc with it in terms of Goku wank.
- Fusion Reborn is a terrible movie.
- The Tree of Might movie and the Bojack movie are probably the best of the original 13 Z films.
- The humans should've never passed the hundreds of thousands.
- Pre-DBS retcon, base Vegetto should be at least on the same tier as SSJ2 Gogeta/Gokhan.
- DB Minus isn't that damaging to the series lore beyond turning Goku into a Superman clone rather than being inspired by him, seeing as we knew nothing about canon Bardock to begin with.
- FnF is the worst DB movie ever made, along with M10.
- Goku should never have been able to pass SSJ3 Gotenks, GT or not.
- DBS is more entertaining than GT, albeit still in every conceivable way and more poorly written.
- DBS Top anime > ToP manga. At least like 5 of the universes weren't erased in like 2 pages by Kale and people not named Jiren, Kefla or Toppo had relevance there. Not to mention Toyotaro's fight scenes were even weaker than in the Future Trunks arc in this one.
- Goku is overall a bad protagonist with his failure to develop much after the Freeza arc beyond wanting a successor, something that always seems to turn out badly, and too much of his character shift (e.g. the change in the way he treats killing enemies) just being retarded post-timeskip rewrites.

 

[ahill1]

GT ending was cool and it's how DB should've ended.

Gohan's writing post Cell arc was fine, including Super (maybe only excluding green suit Gohan, but eh).

The anime of the original DB and Z was pretty good if excluding the inconsistent occurrences, mainly Boo arc's.

Boo's characters trait was a step up and nice change compared to the arc prior.

Boo arc wasn't bad barring the initial inconsistencies.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

All Buu's absorptions acted as power additives (except Grand Kai).

 

[Future Warrior]

- Very few shonen manga out there surpass DB's quality, which I believe is underappreciated as a whole.
- Goku's character remains consistent throughout the entire story
- The same with Vegeta
- Dragon Ball Z ''Return my Gohan!'' (Or M1) is way overrated.
- The movie with Dr. Uiro was the best.
- The first Coola movie was pretty cool.
- The 23rd was the best tournament arc.
- People who are pedantic about power scaling and try to analyze every inconsequential detail related to it need to reevaluate their priorities
- People completely miss the point of battle powers and the purpose it served for the Saiyan and Freeza arcs.
- #20 and #19 would have been good primary villains
- Cell arc as a whole was meh.
- Fat Majin Boo was best Majin Boo
- As someone who had just recently started finishing the Dragon Ball Z anime from the Saiyan to Cell arc, the pacing isn't as overblown as people suggest it to be.
- DB Minus degrades Goku as a character and completely contradicts the original manga's portrayal of Saiyan's being unfeeling sociopaths who only love fighting and destruction.
- Dragon Ball Super has genuinely good concepts
- DBS Anime >>> 95% of the DBS Manga
- Battle of Gods and the concepts it brought are welcomed additions to the lore.
- DBS's main problem is introducing concepts that are never explored further in the slightest i.e. the 12 Universes. It doesn't like risk-taking writing which is what I felt made Toriyama's work so captivating.
- One of the few things that the manga did better was making UI feel like a technique rather than just another super powered transformation (Even though the way it was achieved was dumpster fire levels of mischaracterization). I also think Jiren was done waaaaayy better in the manga.
- Goku Black/Zamasu were good villains.
- Caulifla is an alright character, but Kale can be thrown into the sewage.
- DBS Broly was a bland movie. Has good fights but no substance to it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

- Very few shonen manga out there surpass DB's quality, which I believe is underappreciated as a whole.

I'd agree to this and find DB to be top 10 Shonen material, though I wouldn't say that's an unpopular opinion with how large and loving of the franchise the DB fanbase is. I could see that as being the case with how many tend to hype the bottom tier Shonen that come out today though, considering even the worst of the DB franchise is still better than such fundementally broken series as My Hero Academia or Black Clover.

- Dragon Ball Z ''Return my Gohan!'' (Or M1) is way overrated.

Wouldn't say it's overrated. It barely gets brought up in people mentioning their favourite DBZ movies, with the main contenders usually being Movies 3, 5, 8, 12 and Battle of Gods.

- DB Minus degrades Goku as a character and completely contradicts the original manga's portrayal of Saiyan's being unfeeling sociopaths who only love fighting and destruction.

Wouldn't say this is controversial. About 99% of the fanbase feel the same, not to mention how it diminished the long-held image of Bardock.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

- FnF sucks.
- New Broly movie is arguably the best movie in the series.
- Movie 6 is one of my fav. movies. Better than Movie 5 for sure.
- As long as Toei doesn't resort to episode long stare-downs or fake Namek/Garlic Jr. level filler, the anime exclusive material is actually very good (at times?) and adds to the story. Especially DragonBall anime.
- DragonBall Super manga > anime, like CC said but I thought I had to say this as-well because this is a very unpopular opinion.
- SSJ3 has always sucked and is still useless. Really idiotic style on-top of that.
- Young SSJ2 Gohan > All
- Boo saga was good at first.
- Humans in DB-Super are still below Freeza saga Freeza.
- Humans outside of Kuririn never surpassed Vegeta (maybe even Nappa) in the original.
- Baseball episode is the highlight of DragonBall Super.
- JSAT Special >>> anything modern DragonBall including Battle of Gods, except maybe baseball episode.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

- I have this feeling that a-lot of people that fangasm so hard over DB-Super only do so because AT is involved, if Toei came-out tomorrow and said we were just joking and it actually was all just us they'd lump it together with DragonBall GT.

 

[SSJ2]

- Humans outside of Kuririn never surpassed Vegeta (maybe even Nappa) in the original.
- Baseball episode is the highlight of DragonBall Super.

-Krillin isn’t even the strongest human.

- Accurate.

 

[Fantastische Hure]