Controversial beliefs

[Fantastische Hure]

Except that the DragonBalls were still there to restore everything just in case and just to make sure, I 100% agree about Goku from DragonBall to Freeza-saga but that's where it stops (see even you stopped right there, not bothering to go into Cell saga or Boo saga Goku's deeds). Future Gohan especially in comparison to the Goku from the Cell saga and Boo saga is selfless.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Except that the DragonBalls were still there to restore everything just in case and just to make sure,

Except Goku wasn't aware the Namekian Dragon Balls could do that. It was a new revelation to Dende that their Dragon Balls could revive more than one person at a time, so Goku certainly wasn't banking on that.

I 100% agree about Goku from DragonBall to Freeza-saga but that's where it stops (see even you stopped right there, not bothering to go into Cell saga or Boo saga Goku's deeds). Future Gohan especially in comparison to the Goku from the Cell saga and Boo saga is selfless.

I stopped there as whilst he doesn't accomplish anything overly selfless, he doesn't do anything that could be considered selfish, and that's not to say some of his actions weren't selfless. He tells Gohan when entering the Rosat that the majority of his training will be focused on helping Gohan rather than aiming for himself to aspire for more power. Him letting Gohan fight Cell or leaving defeating Boo in Gotenks' hands aren't selfish either as he was entrusting the task to someone who he deemed more efficient in the former and believed it wouldn't be right for him to save the Earth when he'd left it in the hands of the next generation in the latter. Both cases are ones of Goku not accurately assessing the situation, which he acknowledges, yet he did both for the sake of allowing someone else to grow. If he were being selfish, he'd fight Cell to the death or have killed Fat Boo. There's also his reasoning for wanting to remain dead, which whilst completely nonsensical in the logic (or lack thereof) he uses, is rooted in him not wanting his actions to put those he cares about in danger.

The only major case from the later series where I can see some truth in Goku being selfish is him leaving his family to train Oob, yet that's not entirely so. Whilst he was wanting a rematch with Boo most, he also made it apparent he wanted to train Oob to defend the Earth. This makes sense as both Gohan and Goten have priorities beyond that, whereas Oob has both the potential and lack of other distractions to accomplish this. Whilst you could say it wasn't fair on the Son family for Goku to leave, it would be less fair to take a young boy away from his family to train. Goku at least knows Satan and Gohan can financially support his family in his absence. Same can't be said of Oob's parents and village.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I'd still consider that selfish on Goku's part considering he likes to fight stronger characters. That's been a trait of his. Him not defeating but is more selfish in my opinion. There's also that he could have easily defeated Boo and then just taught the next generation how to defend the earth if the need arises any-time after, why do it in a do or die situation? Especially considering fusion can be taught at any-time without taking a-lot of time.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd still consider that selfish on Goku's part considering he likes to fight stronger characters. That's been a trait of his.

So do the majority of martial artists in the main cast, yet Goku doesn't make it his ultimate factor in decisions like Super loves to portray him as. His most selfish action in the Cell Arc indeed stems from this, admitting he wants to fight the Artificial Humans rather than kill Gero beforehand, but he also adds that Gero has yet to do anything wrong. This makes his reasoning a bit more complex than just wanting to fight, and the same goes for training Oob. It is part of the reason for his action, but it's more of a 50-50 split than 100% selfishness.

Him not defeating but is more selfish in my opinion. There's also that he could have easily defeated Boo and then just taught the next generation how to defend the earth if the need arises any-time after, why do it in a do or die situation? Especially considering fusion can be taught at any-time without taking a-lot of time.

I'd say it's inaccurate to say it's selfish as it's more so reckless, which is indeed true. However, he did rationalise it by specifying he wanted the new generation to take care of themselves. On top of that, it didn't seem as though he could obliterate Boo at any time he wanted during their fight. If he did destroy Boo, it would likely take more time and use up all the time he had on Earth, meaning he wouldn't be able to teach the kids fusion. His goal was to be a distraction for Boo whilst Trunks got the radar and he didn't want to waste what little time he had.

Talking about recklessness, Future Gohan is also guilty of this in going to face #17 and #18 2 on 1 believing he could win. It wasn't just bluster either, considering he was genuinely shocked at the idea of #17 having shown less than 50% up to that point. That said, he was reckless in going to attack on his own without being at a level he could handily dispose of the two from his prior experiences, which certainly wasn't so when he presented doubts at his survival. That's not a flaw in his character writing, but it does go against the idea there's a vast difference in character between he and his father.

More to the original point, Gohan pretty much beats the audience over the head on how much he's trying to emulate Goku with talking about how much his father inspired him. Compare this to present Gohan's treatment of both his father and Piccolo, he loves the former and respects the latter enough to dress like him as future Gohan does for Goku, yet at the end of the day he still has his own motivations and a thought process different from them (also it's debatable whether or not Gohan has some level of Stockholm Syndrome for Piccolo from his experiences in the Saiyan Arc, but that's a rabbit hole for another time). Meanwhile, we don't get enough time to see Gohan's defining character traits stand out in his future self. We do see him taking an approach to training Trunks somewhat inspired by Piccolo's teachings, but that's about it.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Gohan going to fight the Artificial Humans made perfect sense because Gohan has been shown to be someone who can't tolerate evil, just like he was about to fight Dodoria or save Piccolo from Cell and other instances. He also thought he got high enough to perhaps win, even-though more than likely knew that it might be a suicide-mission.

He did talk about how his father inspired him but that's because he took great inspiration from him to him his father was always able to defy the odds like against Raditz or Vegeta or becoming a Super-Saiyan to defeat Freeza. That makes sense.

Goku could have kept Dr. Gero under watch. He didn't have to out-right do that. It seemed more just an excuse so that he can fight the Artificial Humans.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Gohan going to fight the Artificial Humans made perfect sense because Gohan has been shown to be someone who can't tolerate evil, just like he was about to fight Dodoria or save Piccolo from Cell and other instances. He also thought he got high enough to perhaps win, even-though more than likely knew that it might be a suicide-mission.

I agree that it makes sense based on his character and is consistent writing. That doesn't change it was also a reckless decision inspired by said character traits compared to the more logical decision of letting the people be sacrificed due to knowing he wasn't completely ready to handily beat the two.

Talking about that, however, I do concede Future Gohan is somewhat different to Goku in his actions (albeit, only slightly) when comparing this to how Goku reacted to the idea of facing Freeza. He knew Freeza and his men had killed most of the Namekians and wanted to fight Freeza, yet chose not to due to Kaio's warning. This does indeed highlight a difference with Future Gohan and an area wherein Gohan's own sense of justice became his downfall.

Goku could have kept Dr. Gero under watch. He didn't have to out-right do that. It seemed more just an excuse so that he can fight the Artificial Humans.

It's indeed a bit of a copout narrative-wise and I would've found it more interesting if he'd found Gero to warn him given this would give Gero updated data and offer a more plausible reason as to why there were so many changes in the timeline. I do find it an excusable character decision nonetheless as keeping Gero under constant surveillance would be difficult to accomplish and there was still some room to doubt Trunks' story without hard proof.
Whilst it may be a stretch, you could also assume Goku's encounter with #8 made him have some doubts on the Artificial Humans or Gero being pure evil threats who couldn't be reasoned with. You could even use Kuririn's statement about how most of the people there were past enemies of Goku to affirm this.

 

[Future Warrior]

Just to add my own perspective to this... I think Goku is a generally good person and can be selfless a lot of times when the situation calls for it, but I think it's a case by case scenario where the nature of his character falls into play here.

When Goku encounters someone that is in dire need of support right in front of him, he would definitely go out of his way to help that person in whichever way he can, as CC had already presented those examples. However, I think Goku (due to his very simple minded nature and naivety) fails to understand the gravity of the situation most of the times when it pertains to a threat at a bigger scope such as a threat to the entire planet of universe. During those circumstances, martial arts are put above everything else.

There are so many examples of Goku's decisions he makes in the manga that by real world standards would be deemed utterly insane of the worst kind. Back in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, he didn't kill Piccolo when he had the chance all so that he could have a proper rival to push him to new levels of power. Remember, at this point in the story there was no reason to believe he was anybody else but the Daimao of old, not even mentioning the fact that he had no qualms killing everybody on the island that they were in. Yes, Kami's life would be threatened if he would have killed his evil self, but it would be very dishonest to say that was Goku's main motivation. The case with him sparing Vegeta is an ever worse sin, where the Saiyan had killed practically all of his close friends but let him go anyway for the same reasons he did for Piccolo. Even in the Freeza arc, he cared more about fighting the space tyrant than trying to rescue his son and best friend.

So yeah, his selfish nature was present way before the Cell and Boo arcs where he chose not to destroy Dr. Gero before making the androids or him breaking the Potara earrings just so he can have a go against an opponent that threatened the entire universe. Of course, within the scope of Dragon Ball this isn't considered as big of a deal mainly because it's a Wuxia story about martial artists and also because of the nature of Toriyama's writing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Back in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, he didn't kill Piccolo when he had the chance all so that he could have a proper rival to push him to new levels of power. Remember, at this point in the story there was no reason to believe he was anybody else but the Daimao of old, not even mentioning the fact that he had no qualms killing everybody on the island that they were in. Yes, Kami's life would be threatened if he would have killed his evil self, but it would be very dishonest to say that was Goku's main motivation.

Except that Goku himself gives Kami's life as the main motivation for his action which he spells out pretty clear to Kami, with his line of not wanting to lose his rival just yet being an additional factor rather than his main motivation.

 

[SSJ3 Gothic]

I believe that Vegeta is undefeated against Goku and both of those victories are legitimate.

 

[SSJ3 Gothic]

Also, Bio Broly is an underrated movie.

 

[Future Warrior]

Back in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, he didn't kill Piccolo when he had the chance all so that he could have a proper rival to push him to new levels of power. Remember, at this point in the story there was no reason to believe he was anybody else but the Daimao of old, not even mentioning the fact that he had no qualms killing everybody on the island that they were in. Yes, Kami's life would be threatened if he would have killed his evil self, but it would be very dishonest to say that was Goku's main motivation.

Except that Goku himself gives Kami's life as the main motivation for his action which he spells out pretty clear to Kami, with his line of not wanting to lose his rival just yet being an additional factor rather than his main motivation.

Not quite, since even Kuririn questions why he couldn't just seal him off with the Mafuba instead of giving him a senzu to fully heal himself. Goku was clearly acting for his own behalf in this instance.

Just to drive the point even further, he had the moral obligation to put a stop to Piccolo the moment he tried to kill everyone else in the vicinity, tournament rules be damned. He put the safety of the earth in jeopardy in favor of having an honorable match because his pride as a martial artist is clearly more important to him than the former.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I believe that Vegeta is undefeated against Goku and both of those victories are legitimate.

I can definitely see their first battle as Vegeta's legitimate victory. Hard to defend the rematch though when it ended due to a surprise attack and Goku didn't go all-out.

Also, Bio Broly is an underrated movie.

I mean, it doesn't have as many glaring writing flaws as its predecessor and DBS Broly, at least.

Not quite, since even Kuririn questions why he couldn't just seal him off with the Mafuba instead of giving him a senzu to fully heal himself.

Unless using it as a Mafuba counter, the technique was still a suicide move at this point. Kami did imply he would survive it to Goku and it was later revealed in Super that the strain is dependent on the gap in Ki between the user and opponent, though it can be argued Shen's body would assist in the former whilst the latter was unknown at that point of the series.

Just to drive the point even further, he had the moral obligation to put a stop to Piccolo the moment he tried to kill everyone else in the vicinity, tournament rules be damned. He put the safety of the earth in jeopardy in favor of having an honorable match because his pride as a martial artist is clearly more important to him than the former.

He also held back his Super Kamehameha when not wanting to accidentally kill Kami, not to mention being genuinely shocked that Piccolo endured it once he used his full power. He wanted a good fight, that much is evident, though it was also pretty clear he was willing to forego that if it put Kami and his friends in jeopardy.
Goku also held the edge on Piccolo in both base power and durability, so whilst his methods were honourable to the point of arrogance, it could still be argued he had the situation under control enough that he didn't need to directly worry for his friends.

 

[Keedounan]

Post RoSaT Gotenks is overrated.

Most of the Sagas after Saiyan arc are overrated and full of character inconsistencies, asspulls and other types of plot conveniences.

The first part of Dragon Ball is better than anything that came after it in the whole franchise, aside from arguably Bardock's original TV Special.

Similarly, Goku was at his best in the OG DB. He didn't have the unnecessary character flaws to create superficial drama, his "stupidity" was merely naivety and ignorance about the world, he always put his friends first and his fighting boner second, and doesn't foolishly spare clearly irredeemable assholes.

 

[SSJ3 Gothic]

I believe that Vegeta is undefeated against Goku and both of those victories are legitimate.

I can definitely see their first battle as Vegeta's legitimate victory. Hard to defend the rematch though when it ended due to a surprise attack and Goku didn't go all-out.

Also, Bio Broly is an underrated movie.

I mean, it doesn't have as many glaring writing flaws as its predecessor and DBS Broly, at least.

I feel like the only reason we discount the surprise attack is because it was from Vegeta. Had that been Cell, and he outright killed Goku using the same method, we would count it as a victory due to Goku being too gullible and trusting. Also, no one ever brings up the fact that Vegeta could have always resorted to Self Destruct and ended to battle in what would be considered a draw. That still wouldn't count as an outright loss, meaning in sports terms Vegeta would be 1-0-1 against Goku.

Bio Broly deserves credit for using a unique group of characters as its leads, forgoing the all to obvious Goku/Gohan wank to let Trunks, Goten, 18 and Satan to carry the show.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I feel like the only reason we discount the surprise attack is because it was from Vegeta. Had that been Cell, and he outright killed Goku using the same method, we would count it as a victory due to Goku being too gullible and trusting.

I mean, I certainly wouldn't consider that hypothetical a win for Cell, at least not in a professional sense. I'd consider that a win for Vegeta if it had been a fight to the death then it'd count as a win for Vegeta as that's a no-holds barred situation, though both fighters had made it clear to each other at that point to put their match on-hold, so it was at best a void match.

 

[SSJ3 Gothic]

I feel like the only reason we discount the surprise attack is because it was from Vegeta. Had that been Cell, and he outright killed Goku using the same method, we would count it as a victory due to Goku being too gullible and trusting.

I mean, I certainly wouldn't consider that hypothetical a win for Cell, at least not in a professional sense. I'd consider that a win for Vegeta if it had been a fight to the death then it'd count as a win for Vegeta as that's a no-holds barred situation, though both fighters had made it clear to each other at that point to put their match on-hold, so it was at best a void match.

I personally considered it to be no holds barred. Goku was basically dealing with a serial killer at that point considering the massacre at the Budokai. Vegeta could have blasted Goku while he was out cold ala Recoome. We've seen Goku do this before, giving Freeza his power on Namek only to have it used against him despite that ending in failure. Also Radditz pleading for sympathy while Goku had his tail.

BUT, that being said I'm not discounting your points out of hand. I just think people throw that fight out too willingly just because Goku was holding back and I always saw a lot more depth to their battle that just the SSJ3 factor.

 

[Future Warrior]

Unless using it as a Mafuba counter, the technique was still a suicide move at this point. Kami did imply he would survive it to Goku and it was later revealed in Super that the strain is dependent on the gap in Ki between the user and opponent, though it can be argued Shen's body would assist in the former whilst the latter was unknown at that point of the series.

Which isn't relevant because Goku has no idea about the mechanics of the Mafuba besides it being a sealing technique.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

A few more to add:

- The genetic factor when it comes to power increases such as the Saiyans being naturally more talented than most other races is fine, at least in Z. It's a biological fact that traits like strength and intelligence are passed down genetically, so DBZ implementing this is fine. It only becomes a problem in Super when it ends up becoming the only factor in certain characters making insane gains (ie. Freeza and Broly).
- Gohan's character in Z was at its peak during the Great Saiyaman events and at its worst when becoming Ultimate Gohan (may expand on this if I decide to do an in-depth analysis similar to what I did for Goku/Vegeta).
- Pan was an OK character. The worst thing about her was that her character development stopped midway through the Baby Arc.
- The Faulconer soundtrack was, as a whole, mediocre. It had some good tracks, though most of them suffer from being to repetitive in their structure and would benefit more from having alternate renditions of leitmotifs.

 

[Future Warrior]

-The Grade forms were great narrative tools during the Cell arc.
- The 28th Budokai was a solid ending to the series.
- There are a few tracks from Faulconer that I genuinely enjoy, but overall it doesn't fit the tone of the series.
- Literally all the dub voices are straight garbage.

 

[SSJ2]

The Super Mega Cannon Sigma was a more interesting villain than anything offered in Super.