Freeza fight power levels

[Natasha Romanoff]

I have to say that I'm someone that is not obsessed with power bloating in this forum (since almost everyone is manipulable and get contagied by that), since I consider it nasty and gross. But clearly the 3 million number makes no sense, Goku should have been anywhere in 4.75 million to 5 million realm.

 

[SIAD]

@FeatsofPower

So: Vegeta (Final Burst Cannon) = Freezer (Speed increased)?

 

[Goku9001]

Would you agree that more consistent is better than less consistent?



Majority of the inter subjective, reasonable opinion would 100% disagree. We have to remain in reality regardless of what side of the argument we are on. You would never argue for such spacing for any other saga and you’ve made a lengthy career here advocating for the very same principles I’m applying here, yet for this one off you are trying to make it seem like you don’t. That isn’t arguing in good faith brother.

In general, yes but that depends. Ultimately, I go with what's official unless there is a blatant contradiction such as Frieza believing a power over 1 million would be relevant in RoF. The 3 million figure is tight but it doesn't really hold any contradictions.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The 3 million figure is tight but it doesn't really hold any contradictions.

It’s nowhere close to being consistent with the rest of your views.

You gave Initial Form Freeza like a 1.1x boost over 3rd Form Freeza. Why not keep that same energy for then remainder of the series?

Goku 9
Cell 10
Gohan 11
Buu 12
Vegetto 13

You might as well do that. If you are going to put some any real effort it’s crystal clear the 3 million number is garbage.

 

[FeatsofPower]

@FeatsofPower

So: Vegeta (Final Burst Cannon) = Freezer (Speed increased)?

I’m not sure exactly that was more of a rough draft. If we are going to be using the 1.33x amp it changes some of my numbers so I need to play with them a little bit more.

Final Burst Cannon is ideally above Freeza’s power up, so I gotta see how to make that possible.

 

[Goku9001]

It’s nowhere close to being consistent with the rest of your views.

You gave Initial Form Freeza like a 1.1x boost over 3rd Form Freeza. Why not keep that same energy for then remainder of the series?

Goku 9
Cell 10
Gohan 11
Buu 12
Vegetto 13

You might as well do that. If you are going to put some any real effort it’s crystal clear the 3 million number is garbage.

That would only be the case if I argued that all large gaps are the same which I never did.

Frieza obtained a substantial speed boost when he finally transformed. A 1.1x boost was enough Vegeta to hold a significant speed advantage against Kaioken Goku. Kaioken Goku as completely helpless and could barely evade Vegeta's attacks. I also apply a similar boost to Cell when his speed blatantly overwhelmed Goku during their fight. He could barely move once that happened. Frieza's boost is slightly larger here and resulted in a similar thing. I don't see any reason why it necessarily has to be much larger than this.

 

[FeatsofPower]

That would only be the case if I argued that all large gaps are the same which I never did.

Why are the Freeza Saga gaps different than other sagas?

Frieza obtained a substantial speed boost when he finally transformed. A 1.1x boost was enough Vegeta to hold a significant speed advantage against Kaioken Goku.

Freeza did the largest power up by far compared to all of his other power ups at this point. For it to be the smallest power up is illogical.

I also apply a similar boost to Cell when his speed blatantly overwhelmed Goku during their fight.

Your argument is like Cell going full power is a 1.1x boost. It’s ridiculous.

Frieza's boost is slightly larger here and resulted in a similar thing. I don't see any reason why it necessarily has to be much larger than this.

Because it’s the largest, most epic transformation we have ever seen this far.

 

[ahill1]

Freeza going from 1,850,000 to 2,530,000 is a big power up. The emphasis may be based on the already gigantic power becoming even bigger by a considerable margin. Nappa performed a 2x power increase vs Goku and was treated in a not so blatant way... Vegeta going from kicking Goku outta the Kaioken to 18k was seen as a huge deal by Goku... No one would argue Nappa's power up was bigger, but it was. Just as Vegeta's SSJ improvement post RoSaT going from << 18 to ~ initial Semi Cell only being commented by 16... And then a power up far smaller, the grade 2, being the big deal that drew reactions from Piccolo. It's not just the raw increase of power... It's the already unbelievable power becoming even more unbelievable. If you apply the standard SSJ multiplier you can also see how Piccolo reacted to Gotenks going SSJ post RoSaT... In comparison to him going SSJ3. Reactions never served entirely to say x power up was bigger than y one. If y was already on an unmatched level, a big boost, even though not the same size as before, will be bound to gather all those reactions.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Freeza going from 1,850,000 to 2,530,000 is a big power up. The emphasis may be based on the already gigantic power becoming even bigger by a considerable margin. Nappa performed a 2x power increase vs Goku and was treated in a not so blatant way... Vegeta going from kicking Goku outta the Kaioken to 18k was seen as a huge deal by Goku... No one would argue Nappa's power up was bigger, but it was. Just as Vegeta's SSJ improvement post RoSaT going from << 18 to ~ initial Semi Cell only being commented by 16... And then a power up far smaller, the grade 2, being the big deal that drew reactions from Piccolo. It's not just the raw increase of power... It's the already unbelievable power becoming even more unbelievable. If you apply the standard SSJ multiplier you can also see how Piccolo reacted to Gotenks going SSJ post RoSaT... In comparison to him going SSJ3. Reactions never served entirely to say x power up was bigger than y one. If y was already on an unmatched level, a big boost, even though not the same size as before, will be bound to gather all those reactions.

You make some great points but there is more evidence than just reaction and reaction would be a good gauge to go by but not the ultimate piece of evidence. So there’s a variety of factors here in how people are emoting off of a power up.

 

[Yoshi]

I only use the Daiz numbers for the late Freeza Arc to prevent bloating and it works just fine, honestly.

 

[Goku9001]

Why are the Freeza Saga gaps different than other sagas?

Compared to the Cell Saga and Buu Saga? For one, there are not only more tanking feats, transformations, and fusion to take into account but more gap spacings in general. For one, Kid Gohan is stronger than Pre-Majin Vegeta who expects to beat Expected Teen Gohan and Teen Gohan was drastically below that. That will naturally increase the gap between Kid Gohan and Teen Gohan, and by extension, CG Goku as well.

Freeza did the largest power up by far compared to all of his other power ups at this point. For it to be the smallest power up is illogical.

That is purely subjective. Having a stronger reaction doesn't guarantee a larger power-up. Frieza already held a significant advantage and was exacerbated by the power-up. That would lead to a greater disparity which would naturally evoke a stronger reaction.

Your argument is like Cell going full power is a 1.1x boost. It’s ridiculous.

How so? FP Cell is expected to overcome a transformation boost that enabled Gohan to one-shot the Cell Juniors. Frieza doesn't have this context beyond increasing his power beyond his 3rd Form which already held a greater power advantage. That doesn't tell us anything beyond the boost needing to be significant. According to Goku's fight with Vegeta, a 13% boost is significant.

Because it’s the largest, most epic transformation we have ever seen this far.

Ah okay so I'm guessing the boost Piccolo received from merging with Kami was more impressive than Super Saiyan.

 

[SSJ2]

.

Piccolo:
~ Weighted: 1,350,000
~ Full Power: 1,600,000

3rd Form Frieza: 1,950,000

4th Form Frieza:
~Initial: 2,200,000
~vs. Vegeta/Warm Up: 2,700,000
~vs. Vegeta(Kick)/No Hands: 3,200,000

I can live with the gap between Piccolo and 3rd Form Freeza, but I think initial 4th form is just too tight. Not only was there a mutual reaction about how much more monstrous he had become, but Freeza's attacks weren't even visible for anyone but Vegeta. Is there precedent for attacks not being visible at such a gap?

 

[FeatsofPower]

I can live with the gap between Piccolo and 3rd Form Freeza

Piccolo being 82% of 3rd Form Freeza doesn’t make sense.

At bare minimum it’s 75% if not 66%.

but I think initial 4th form is just too tight.

Agreed. 3rd Form Freeza being 88% of Final Form Freeza is an absurdity.

 

[SSJ2]

Piccolo being 82% of 3rd Form Freeza doesn’t make sense.

At bare minimum it’s 75% if not 66%.

I don't disagree there, but it's at least more explainable than the 3rd form to 4th form increase. Although I do think that Piccolo's general reaction to 3rd Form Freeza and calling him a monster are grounds for a larger gap than 1.21x.

 

[sei'taer]

The numbers given have never matched up with the implied increases. I can't believe DB fans are still arguing over this. There's literally no way to cram Form 2 furiza, piccolo, piccolo unweighted, form three furiza and post zenkai Vegeta between "over a million" and 3,000,000 and have it be any kind of believable given how the characters act. Like the kind of mathematical gymnastics people go to to make this work is so weird, so many other guidebook numbers make no sense or clearly do not match with canon, but that 3,000,000 figure just sticks for somereason.

Starting at something at least double those numbers for Goku makes things make more sense.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Starting at something at least double those numbers for Goku makes things make more sense.

Agreed with all points and this is a great summary.

 

[Goku9001]

.

I can live with the gap between Piccolo and 3rd Form Freeza, but I think initial 4th form is just too tight. Not only was there a mutual reaction about how much more monstrous he had become, but Freeza's attacks weren't even visible for anyone but Vegeta. Is there precedent for attacks not being visible at such a gap?

What would you make of Vegeta's power-up against Goku which also elicited a significant reaction?

I agree that the gaps are a bit too tight but not completely unjustified. Judging by Goku's battle against the Ginyu Force, we could infer that a 1.5x boost would be enough to completely blitz your target. A similar case could extend to Frieza, however, Piccolo did react to Frieza's laser beam just as it was passing him. And, it can also be argued that he was taken off-guard which is known to leave fighters susceptible to moves they should already avoid.

 

[Kyo]

I've decided that Freeza's initial lunge at Goku was around his "initial" level and that when firing the death beam barrage he's trying as hard as he did when he actually started beating up Vegeta.

Against Vegeta, Freeza ups his speed after a single dodge:

Spoiler

It took Vegeta keeping up with a single attack for Freeza to decide to adjust.

Against Goku, Freeza attacks first, and we can surmise that, with no knowledge of who Goku is, he's only trying as hard as he did against Piccolo and co. (It doesn't actually have to be exactly this level, imo, but that's not important; it's most likely below what he was just dishing out onto Vegeta is the point).

First of all, it's worth noting that Goku's kick is better than anything Vegeta managed to do, even if Freeza is only at his "initial" level. When Freeza dodges Vegeta's first attack, he's probably still at his "initial" level -- the line "I get just a little serious and raise my speed, and it seems that you can’t keep up with me" suggests that there was not yet any speed increase when Vegeta was still able to follow him. Even if Freeza was on the offensive instead of on the defensive against Goku, Goku landing a kick puts him solidly above Vegeta, and Freeza knows this:

Spoiler

He's amused that someone's finally put a bruise on him, even if he doesn't quite grasp the full extent of Goku's prowess.

If all it took was Vegeta following Freeza with his eyes for Freeza to try harder, then why wouldn't Freeza try harder after getting kicked in the face? He should, at the minimum, be trying as hard as he did when he tortured Vegeta imo. Any less than that makes no sense.

Of course, after Goku knocks back all the death beams with a hand, Freeza expresses his surprise at this feat, and Vegeta warns him not to take Goku lightly. Freeza should have already understood that Goku was better than Vegeta after the first blow, but now he knows that there's even more where that came from. (If we get really into the nitty gritty like I told GSM we could do, then you could also totally say that Goku blocking the death beams > Goku's kick, but that's not really important to the overall scaling. I'd like to think that I'm just covering the important levels here.)

Freeza obviously heeds Vegeta's warning (partially; the Super Saiyan shit is still nonsense to him, of course) and fights Goku more seriously, and they're about even. This necessitates a fourth level for Freeza, one that's in-between his "vs Vegeta" level and his full power (at his current suppressed state).

Some quick numbers, I didn't think about them too much but they're just to chew on for now:

Vegeta: 5,000,000
Initial Freeza: 5,500,000
Vegeta's blast: 7,500,000
Freeza (vs Vegeta): 7,500,000
Goku (warming up): 8,500,000
Freeza (vs Goku, warming up): 9,000,000
Goku (full power): 10,000,000
Freeza (full effort, blocking Vegeta's blast, "no hands"): 11,500,000

 

[SSJ2]

So we agree on Freeza having 4 levels but in slightly differing ways.

How strong is Freeza when he first fights Goku?

Shouldn’t this be effort based though? Freeza has a realm of power he can access based on his level of effort. When he initially attacks Goku it seems like he’s barely trying. I’d assume it’s the lowest power for the lowest effort. Yes, it's effort based, I'm just saying he tried the same...

dbzeta.net

What would you make of Vegeta's power-up against Goku which also elicited a significant reaction?

I agree that the gaps are a bit too tight but not completely unjustified. Judging by Goku's battle against the Ginyu Force, we could infer that a 1.5x boost would be enough to completely blitz your target. A similar case could extend to Frieza, however, Piccolo did react to Frieza's laser beam just as it was passing him. And, it can also be argued that he was taken off-guard which is known to leave fighters susceptible to moves they should already avoid.

Well, I'd say the difference there is Goku's true power was only ~8000. Sure he had Kaioken up his sleeve, but it wasn't an infinite increase and it had serious repercussions. And even with that, Goku knew that the only Kaioken he could comfortably handle was already far outclassed by Vegeta.

Piccolo only reacted to the beam after it passed him. I'm specifically talking about the instance where Vegeta kicked Gohan out of the way. Piccolo was staring right at Freeza when he fired the beam and still couldn't see it or react. He was shocked that Vegeta was even able to.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It took Vegeta keeping up with a single attack for Freeza to decide to adjust.

I hadn't considered this option. You are right, if Freeza is adjusting on the fly like this to someone showing rivaling force, then after being bruised and embarrassed why wouldn't he do the same? Top notch work, I knew if you dug into this you could extend the logic even further just as you've done.

Of course, after Goku knocks back all the death beams with a hand, Freeza expresses his surprise at this feat,

He could only be surprised at this feat if blocking the death beams was a higher level than anticipated, which would put Goku (Blocking Death Beams) > Goku (Initial Kick). Sheesh, I missed this one too. This venture into you looking into this has proved quite fruitful. Although it's a secondary issue, it's still something worth exploring if we intend to completely max out our logic on these issues.

Vegeta: 5,000,000
Initial Freeza: 5,500,000
Vegeta's blast: 7,500,000
Freeza (vs Vegeta): 7,500,000
Goku (warming up): 8,500,000
Freeza (vs Goku, warming up): 9,000,000
Goku (full power): 10,000,000
Freeza (full effort, blocking Vegeta's blast, "no hands"): 11,500,000

Goku does seem to use quite a bit of effort to deflect the Death Beams, so that is probably his warm up power's full power. His initial kick is still his warm up power, but with just less effort I'd say?

I like that you've come around to Initial vs Vegeta = Initial vs Goku and FP vs Vegeta = FP vs Goku. I think it's sound logic.

I do think that Vegeta's Blast is still quite strong to Freeza's full power. For it to require Freeza's full effort, I'd assume it's rivaling Freeza at least somewhat. The Blast should probably be somewhere around Goku's FP. I think. I have to re-read this section again now that you've made these discoveries and see what else I can find following your path.

Now this is good stuff brother. Finding new things in the original manga at this stage of the game is always exciting.

I desperately need your help with the Saiyan Saga, I feel this area never gets the love necessary because the established power levels make people unwilling to look. But let's finish this topic first.