Goku, Trunks and Piccolo's power in the Android saga

[kriss-]

Trunks should be much closer to Piccolo then he is to Goku and/or Vegeta. He was decimated as easily as Piccolo was.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

He was hit by 17 in the back with full force.
Their feats aren't comparable.

 

[kriss-]

If it was full force, he would have died. Tienshinhan should have died. It's obvious he held back. That argument is negligible.

Trunks was taken out as easily as Piccolo was.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

He used different levels of effort on them and merely choked Tenshinhan out, he didn't actually smash him in the back.
17 hits Trunks with both of his hands in the back, while he merely spin-kicked Piccolo aside.

 

[kriss-]

Your argument collapses on by the merits of it's own definition. 'How much power did he use against everybody?', 'What evidence do I have to prove that he used more power on Trunks?'. It's all speculative conjecture.

I'll stick to my own theory. ;3

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

The ''moves'' he used to knock them out clearly show that.
He smashes Trunks in the back, but spin-kicks Piccolo aside and then chokes Tenshinhan out.
Trunks is then KO'd by a hit in the stomach by Vegeta by 18, while Piccolo is KO'd by a light punch in the stomach by 17.

 

[kriss-]

Android 17 held back, you said so yourself. So your argument collapses on itself by default. You have no way of showing how much, and if he used any more power on Trunks then Piccolo, or the contrary.

 

[ahill1]

@GokhanDBZfan

He didn't have any set expectations for the androids' powers then(like Trunks<<Androids)

He had... He expected the Androids to be at least > Trunks, since Trunks told to him so. How much is speculation. But he already expected them to be above Trunks:


Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Precisely for this reason I find his statement about the Artificial Humans making a big mistake to be BS, unless he thinks Goku improved so much that the Androids made a fatal mistake about not knowing the SSJs, and I'm sure that's not what you're seeing

He starts off the line with ''It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids''

So? It doesn't necessarily have to include all of them, specially when in the same phrase he opens the possibility of them "just growing too strong", when in the chapter 345, Piccolo said:

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.6
Context: after Tenshinhan, Gohan, and Kuririn want to chase after No.20
Piccolo: “I understand…But don’t try and fight him. He’s not an opponent you guys could handle…”

Hell, the humans didn't even fight the Androids, which the closest of it was Yamcha being almost killed by 20.

He isn't doing anything than projecting his thoughts on what Trunks prophesied not coming true and brought up two basic explanations.

Piccolo was confused, implying that both are plausible. 20 is strong enough to where Piccolo thinks he might meet his expectations, but still weak enough to where Green Man isn't sure. Again, I don't think it would make sense he ponder the possibility of "they just being too strong" if he were any weaker than Mecha saga Trunks.

Heck, after they get they assess handed to them by the androids, Piccolo says this:
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P6.5
Piccolo: “They’re stupendously strong…Too strong…I never thought they’d be so great…”

Yeah, the Androids far surpassed his expectations.

So he never had a set level of strength in mind.

Never said he had an exactly expected level in his head. But he had at least a notion about their enemy strength, which would be stronger than Mecha saga Trunks. Like I said, how much is anyone's guesses.

Like I've mentioned above, Piccolo didn't have any set expectations for the androids'

This is really not relevant to what we're discussing. He knew the Androids were stronger than Mecha saga Trunks, which is all that matters here. Like I said, I think Piccolo would be panicking initially if sick Goku was < Yardrat Goku, specially when it was made clear Goku had to train in order to hope to defeat these foes.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku: 425
Trunks: 390
Pikkoro: 345

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Piccolo was already confident about his power against ANdroids.

 

[kriss-]

Something like this makes more cents:

Kamiccolo: 450
Android 17: 425
Android 18: 400

Vegeta SSj: 320
Goku SSj: 300

Trunks SSj: 240
Piccolo: 225

 

[ahill1]

I like this:

Kamiccolo - 600
Androide 17 - 600
Androide 18 - 530
Vegeta SSJ - 400
Goku SSJ - 380
Trunks SSJ - 350
Piccolo - 300

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

deleted

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

quote

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

He was confident in their chances of victory with SSJ Goku on the team.
He uses cowardly tactics to get past Gero, when, if he were confident in his power, he would just smack him aside.

Later, he smack #20 around and cut his hands too. Moreover, it's undeniable that the Androids are stronger than Freeza and Piccolo almost destroy them [#20].

Piccolo > Androids > Freeza which mean Piccolo is a SSJ tier.

Also on Viz translation, Piccolo talks about his power rather than his confidence.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Piccolo crushed 20, yeah, but that doesn't make 20 or even Piccolo stronger than Freeza.
If it's an undeniable fact, then why is it not supported anywhere and Kami's statement even suggests otherwise?

Herms' translation and his general attitude when Goku is knocked out contradict that statement.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Piccolo crushed 20, yeah, but that doesn't make 20 or even Piccolo stronger than Freeza.
If it's an undeniable fact, then why is it not supported anywhere and Kami's statement even suggests otherwise?

Herms' translation and his general attitude when Goku is knocked out contradict that statement.

So you believed that 20 is weaker than Freeza? proof?

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

You have no proof Gero is stronger.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

You have no proof Gero is stronger.

Anyway:
Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”
Piccolo is completely ignored, even though he should be able to instantly obliterate Freeza too?
Kami, Tien and Yamcha's statements are dumb after Freeza Arc so using them as source will lead you to contradiction.

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”

Krillin uses Freeza as a measuring stick, not 19 and 20.

Thus:Freeza>Piccolo>20 and 19

Android 19 was unable to beat Vegeta after he has absorbed a good chunk of his and Goku's SSJ energy, indicating he and 20 are rather weak.
The quote you provide refers to Android #16, 17, 18 and Cell since Goku never met them yet.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Kami, Tien and Yamcha's statements are dumb after Freeza Arc so using them as source will lead you to contradiction.

No, Kami's statement doesn't create any contradictions whatsoever.
Yamcha's statements, what little he has to say, also don't contradict anything.

The quote you provide refers to Android #16, 17, 18 and Cell since Goku never met them yet.

It reffers to Cell.