Goku, Trunks and Piccolo's power in the Android saga

kriss-

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Vegeta's statement is a reference to his own personal experience up until that point, hence the terminology 'my'. Please don't throw down unnecessary principals, I appreciate the effort though.

vdragon_ball_z_v013-167.jpg

Trunks is grunting while Vegeta is smirking. He's having a difficult time just maintaining Vegeta's speed. Meanwhile, he was knocked out in two hits like Piccolo was. And despite fighting Android 18 for an indefinite period of time, having his arm broken and being struck with the same attack that knocked Trunks out, Vegeta gets back up for more.

The difference is made abundantly obvious.
 

kriss-

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You're throwing down random principals and treating them as fact, they aren't. Scenarios occur all over the place where speed doesn't scale with strength.

When someone raises their battle power through training methods, speed and power are clearly established as separately increased attributes:

Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”

Vegeta is speaking in terms of his own personal experience. There is no contradiction there.

Power and speed are not connected, as the circumstances involving Goku & Ginyu, Gohan and Boo exemplify.

Goku was established to be suppressed at 5000 against the Ginyu Force despite moving faster than any of them could see, and only raised his power when he attacked. If the two were inseparable attributes, he shouldn't be able to move at that speed while keeping his power suppressed. When Ginyu possesses Goku's body he is also shown to have access to Goku's speed, but not his power. They are not necessarily connected.

Trunks is having a difficult time maintaining Vegeta's speed. Nothing implies what you're suggesting.
 

GokhanDBZfan

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And when those scenarios occur, they are all mentioned.Nothing like that is mentioned with Future Trunks.

Again, all of those scenarios are brougt up.
Gohan is shown to be wrong anyway regarding Boo's speed, probably because he assumed Boo is a slow fatass, which he appeared to be.

Goku was using short bursts of his true power to manage all of those speed feats, that's made clear in that scene.
The Ginyus are ignorant and rely too much on scouters to realize that.
Ginyu in Goku's body is shown only accessing the 23,000 battle power, nothing else regarding his power or speed is mentioned.

Again, Vegeta is shown screaming and powering up to gain distance on Trunks, who then proceeds to transform and catch up with him.
He isn't shown struggling keeping up with him.
 

kriss-

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It shows that you're assumption about the two attributes being locked together is totally incorrect.

At least not for every character. There is more underlying the two attributes than meets the eye. Below, I've gathered sufficient evidence to debunk the notion that the two characteristics scale linearly.

Chapter: 104, P1.2-3
Context: Goku kicked Akkuman with incredible speed.
Goku: “You don’t seem too strong, either.”
Akkuman: “Wh-what…?!! How dare you be so flippant towards a devil…!!”
In this scan, Goku makes a clear distinction between speed and power, as if one isn't necessarily the same as the other.

Chapter: 216 (DBZ 22), P2.3
Context: talking about Kuririn’s scattering ki blast
Piccolo: “Stupendous energy, but no speed!! Almost as if he’s telling them to dodge…!!”
Interestingly, even in amplified Chi attacks the principal of speed correlating with strength isn't at all relevant.

hapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P1.3, P2.1
Kuririn: “Guh…Goku, how’d you do that? Was that something you were taught by Lord Kaio?
Goku: “Yeah. It’s called Kaio-Ken!”
Goku: “You control all the ki in your body…momentarily amplifying it. If you get it right, your power, speed, destructive force, and defensive force all become many times greater…”
Goku explains that the Kaio-Ken amplifies the attributes of the user. However, in order to amplify all three, one has to get the technique just right. The interesting thing about this quote is that by increasing your power doesn't mean that your speed & destructive force will all increase. They are three very different characteristics that don't work completely in tune with one another.

Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P2.3,
Burta: “W-when did you…get behind me?! I’m the fastest in the universe…”
Goku: “Well then, you’d be the second fastest in the universe, wouldn’tcha?

2. Burta [#FR1#BUT]
Chapter: 273 (DBZ 79), P5.1
Context: Vegeta tried to throw a dragonball so far away that the Ginyu Special-Squad wouldn’t be able to find it, but Burta caught it.
Ginyu: “Ahhh, I get it… Throw them so far that we won’t be able to get them, eh? Too bad Burta here is the fastest in the universe!”
Ginyu's battle power is 120,000 while Burta's is only 40,000ish, yet Ginyu regards him as the fastest in the Universe.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P10.3
Ginyu: “He’s fast! Is his speed greater than mine?!”
A battle power of 90,000 is even quicker than one of 120,000. A fairly clear distinction that works against the norm.

Chapter: 287 (DBZ 93), P2.2
Context: after Ginyu steals Goku’s body
Ginyu: “Fuhahahaha…! This body’s even faster!”
Despite having a battle power 33% higher than Goku's Base form, Ginyu clearly feels that Goku's body is faster than his own. Again, this works against the notion that battle powers work on a linear scale.

Chapter: 309 (DBZ 115), P8.4
Goku: “That bastard’s got outrageous speed too…Well then, what am I gonna do?..
Goku was already aware of Frieza's overwhelming power, but he didn't quite except Frieza to possess such tremendous speed. If Frieza was already a ridiculously powerful tyrant, it would be an obvious expectation for his speed to be equally formidable; to Goku, that wasn't originally the case.

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P7.5
Freeza: “So you’ve lightened yourself up by removing that heavy equipment, huh?...Meaning that you’ve sharpened your speed even further…Looks like you’re pretty confident…”
Piccolo has sharpened his 'speed' not his power.

Chapter: 302 (DBZ 108), P9.4
Piccolo: “Damn him! You may be more powerful, but I’m faster! You couldn’t catch up to me even if you spent your entire lifetime!”
Despite Frieza being in an entirely different weight than Piccolo in terms of power, Piccolo makes the adherence that just because Frieza is more powerful, doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger. One of the quotes above makes it clear that Frieza is fairly quick and agile for his battle power, while someone like Ginyu is not.

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P5.5-7
Piccolo: “Your speed is pretty good...But your punch lacks weight.”
No.17: "What? Say, who do you think you’re talking to? I’m Android No.17, the strongest in history…”
A great example is the quote above. It makes the clear distinction that I'm siding with; speed does not correlate with power on a linear scale for everyone. Android 17 is quite nimble for someone of his battle power -like Frieza, but he's not strong in comparison to another.

Chapter: 373 (DBZ 179), P5.4, P6.1, P8.3
Cell: “Even I’m surprised at this magnificent speed…Obviously this is thanks to absorbing No.17…I wonder what my power’s like? [he blasts No.16] Hoh…Seems that’s gone up quite a bit too…”
Semi-Perfect Cell fully expected for his battle power to shoot up, but he didn't expect his speed to shoot up quite so far. He remarks that his newly found speed is 'magnificent' which supersedes all original estimates he had; or, battle power correlates with speed on a linear scale.

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…

Chapter: 388 (DBZ 194), P2.3-4
Context: Trunks was shown the downside of Super Saiyan Grade III: its lack of speed.
Trunks: “I-I see, so that’s why father never performed this transformation…He knew this would happen…It’s just like Cell said…I-I’ve been such a fool…”
The greatest example of this is the time when the Saiyans first achieved their Grade II transformations. Their power shot up drastically but their speed didn't.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”
Perfect Cells power that he used against Goku is sufficient in harming and owning someone on Kid Gohans level. The only difference between the two is speed; hence why Perfect Cell goes on to call Gohan a 'quick little brat', because he can't hit him. It's not Perfect Cell stating that he isn't currently powerful enough to defeat someone of Gohan's calibre.

Chapter: 411 (DBZ 217), P8.1
Context: after Cell bulks up
Trunks: “He’s using a transformation that’s too concerned with power, so his speed can’t keep up…Cell himself is making the same mistake he pointed out to me…! He’s really lost it…”
Out of anger and disparity, Cell increases his strength as much as possible without the realization that his speed can't keep up. Yet another clear distinction.

Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P9.2, P11.3
Context: as Gohan and Kaioshin flee from Boo
Gohan: “It’s alright! I’m confident in my speed!”
*Boo quickly catches up to them*
Gohan: “…! Th-that can’t be…!”
Even during the events of the Majin Boo saga, the notion is obvious. The Fat Majin Boo increased to such a drastic level that he was able to single handily single shot Gohan Ssj or Ssj2 had serious trouble with. Yet Gohan felt compelled that he could outrace Boo. Sure, he was wrong. But that doesn't take from the merits of the argument; speed does not correlate with strength and the characters themselves realize that.

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Piccolo wishes to test out the speed of Gotenks to see where he stands because he knows that speed doesn't correlate with strength; that still isn't suffice to suggest Gotenks could actually beat Boo. :elmo

I would like to finish up this theory with the quote below:

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”
The argument here is that speed rises as Chi increases. But it doesn't necessarily mean it rises at the same amount, all the time, for every character. There are different factors that come into play, such as, species, Chi control, battle power & potential, et cetera. Just because a particular battle power of 120,000 is 33% higher than one of 90,000 doesn't mean it's an instant victory for the higher battle power. Frieza versus Goku Ssj comes to mind.

Anyways, hopefully you enjoyed the read!!
:CC
 

GokhanDBZfan

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You wasted your time then collecting all those quotes, because I am NOT disagreeing with that.
All I am saying is that IT'S STATED everytime there is a difference between power and speed, which is not the case with Trunks and Vegeta.
 

kriss-

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Trunks is clearly having a difficult time keeping up with Vegeta.

Case closed.
 

GokhanDBZfan

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So now you just completely ignore my argument, while stubbornly repeating an argument I've countered many times already?
You know, when you are going to pull a ''move'' like this, then you might as well not debate with me, because then you are wasting both of our times.
 

kriss-

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You have no argument, just assumptions and conjecture.

qdragon_ball_z_v014-063.jpg


Trunks had no problem flying and turning into a Super Saiyan here.

Your argument is debunked.

Trunks having a difficult time keeping up with Vegeta is proven.
 

GokhanDBZfan

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Of course he has no trouble there, because he wasn't trying to catch up with somebody, who blasted right ahead of him and he was shouting at his father anyway.
 

kriss-

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He had no problems flying and transforming at the same time. The merits to your argument are debunked.

This is boring.
 

GokhanDBZfan

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Stop deliberatly ignoring my posts.He had no problem doing that, because he wasn't trying to catch up with somebody stronger than him.
 

kriss-

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GokhanDBZfan said:
Stop deliberatly ignoring my posts.He had no problem doing that, because he wasn't trying to catch up with somebody stronger than him.
He was trying to attack someone much, much stronger then him.

So it really doesn't matter. You can dance around it all you want but at the end of the day, it's pretty clear that transforming while simultaneously flying isn't an issue for Trunks.

In one scenario, he's trying to rescue his father from death by attacking someone much stronger then his father, in another he's trying to catch up to Vegeta but he's having a difficult time. The seriousness about rescuing his father from death hold more merits then simply trying to out-race him, therefore if there ever was a time where he should of had difficultly flying while transforming, it would have been when he attacked Android 18, but this didn't happen. So the consensus here is that he definitely had a difficult time keeping up with Vegeta, while Vegeta was completely non-chalant, whereas with Android 18, there was nobody left to compare. However that doesn't discredit his inability to maintain Vegeta's speed beforehand.

So we're back where we started, Vegeta being a whole lot stronger then Trunks.

qdragon_ball_z_v014-061.jpg

The above scan is not indicative of two people being close in power. Trunks is flabbergasted by how powerful his father is, yet this occurs prior to him acknowledging that these Androids surpass the ones from his timeline.

It's obvious that Vegeta heavily outclasses Trunks.
 

kriss-

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It sure does. When Piccolo states Vegeta is going to be killed, Trunks is as surprised as Krillen and Tenshinhan. He was fully convinced that he might actually pull it off until someone more experienced speaks up.

The gap between Vegeta and Trunks is so significant that Vegeta is strong enough to put up a fight while Trunks isn't.

Sigh... it's like arguing with KidBuu55.
 

GokhanDBZfan

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That just solidifes the fact, that they weren't paying attention to his ki.
Simply put, Vegeta APPEARED strong to Trunks, because he was fighting evenly with 18.
 

kriss-

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Trunks is blown away by Vegeta prior to knowing that Vegeta is fighting someone stronger then the Androids from his timeline.

Vegeta > Trunks

Confirmed.
 

GokhanDBZfan

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Well obviously, but Vegeta is not like twice as strong as him, since he, Trunks and Goku are put in the same tier.
 

kriss-

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Nope. I'm not saying that. But Trunks is much closer to Piccolo then to Vegeta, much closer in fact.

Android 18 (Real) > Vegeta SSj (Real) > Android 18 (Expected) =/= Future Android 18 > Vegeta SSj (Expected) > Trunks SSj > Piccolo
 

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