Goku, Trunks and Piccolo's power in the Android saga

[kriss-]

So is Trunks.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

He is put in the same tier as the two Super Saiyans by Kami and Tenshinhan.

 

[kriss-]

Kami and Tenshinhan are discredited by feats.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

But said feats don't discredit anything.
Vegeta was shown to be highly persistent in his battle with Goku and co. on Earth and Trunks from struck from behind by 17.
So nothing discredits Vegeta and Trunks being in the same tier.

 

[kriss-]

Feats over-ride statements. And the feats show Vegeta putting up a fight, not Trunks.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Again, you are completely ignoring my argument.
Vegeta put up a fight against a weaker android, while Trunks was struck behind by a much more powerful 17.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks was knocked out by Android 18, Vegeta wasn't.

17 isn't stated to be much more powerful.

Keep reaching.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Vegeta calls his blast shit straight to his face and later says he'd be useless against #18. Trunks is not on Vegeta's level at all.

 

[kriss-]

Finally some back-up.

I'm going to leave.

Good luck convincing this troll.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Trunks was knocked out by Android 18, Vegeta wasn't.

17 isn't stated to be much more powerful.

Keep reaching.

Again, he was struck by 17.That made him weak enough for 18 to knock him out.
17 is stated to be unrivaled in power, so much so Kamiccolo can rival him and 18 at the same time.

Good luck convincing this troll.

I am offended by this.You called me a troll just for having a different opinion.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

Kami just straight-up says Vegeta is more powerful than Trunks. If they're really that close, it makes the quote entirely pointless. Since Kami says Vegeta is greater, it means it's clear enough for him to sense the difference between them.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks was fine after that attack, no battle damage was visible. He was however knocked out by Android 18. A worn out, drained, 1 arm broken Vegeta wasn't.

All the humans and Piccolo call Trunks an idiot for jumping in, that's how useless he is.

You've lost this debate.

Just accept it and bend over.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

Kami just straight-up says Vegeta is more powerful than Trunks. If they're really that close, it makes the quote entirely pointless. Since Kami says Vegeta is greater, it means it's clear enough for him to sense the difference between them.

Well obviously.I never denied Vegeta was stronger than Trunks.
All I am saying is that Trunks isn't closer to Piccolo than he is to Vegeta, that quote you posted there proving that with Freeza being used as a measuring stick.

Trunks was fine after that attack, no battle damage was visible. He was however knocked out by Android 18. A worn out, drained, 1 arm broken Vegeta wasn't.

All the humans and Piccolo call Trunks an idiot for jumping in, that's how useless he is.

You've lost this debate.

Just accept it and bend over.

Battle damage=/= drained stamina
An entire page is focused on 17 strike Trunks from behind and also two statements from Krillin and Piccolo, showing huge emphasis on that attack.
Again, Vegeta was never even touched by 17 once.

They call him an idiot, because 17 made it clear he would step in, if any of them interfered.

You could keep comments like that to yourself.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks isn't shown or noted to have lost stamina or suffered battle damage until he reverts to his Base form. Meanwhile Vegeta was, yet he got back up. The difference is tremendous.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

They were in the middle of a quick fight scene.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Gokhan, Vegeta doesn't need to be 2x stronger than Trunks to be noticeably above him. From what we see, Vegeta should be comfortably ahead.

That's a significantly suppressed Freeza. You don't think the Goku fighting #19 can beat a suppressed Freeza?

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

It appears to be that way, especially with Goku probably sitting in between their levels.
I've never denied he was considerably weaker than Vegeta, but he shouldn't be closer to Piccolo than he is to Vegeta, unlike what [mention]kriss-[/mention]says.
Piccolo is shown revering Trunks' SSJ power just as much as Krillin and that statement from Kami even implies he can't obliterate Freeza and Cold.

Why would Kami be reffering to a suppressed version of Freeza?

 

[kriss-]

Trunks arrived to the main time-line fully believing that the Androids would be the same battle power as the ones from his time-line. However, he is proven wrong. But before he is, he is blown away by Vegeta's performance.

Additionally, the humans call Trunks an idiot for running in to aid Vegeta because he's regarded as being completely useless. Vegeta affirms this notion and the humans support it when things got serious.

Trunks wasn't stated or implied to have suffered battle damage from Android 17. He immediately got back up and appeared to be fine. Therefore the implication is that Android 17 intentionally held back and this suggests that it's an irrelevant form of information to determine how Trunks stacks up against Vegeta because Android 17's motive was not to kill any of the Z-Fighters, rendering the argument completely invalid.

Vegeta had battled Android 18 for an indefinite period of time up until this point and is clearly drawn and shown to have suffered massive battle damage. Yet when Trunks is thrown into him, he immediately gets back up and continues his assault upon the Androids, despite having a broken arm and despite losing stamina -both of which are shown and stated, whereas Trunks isn't noted to have lost stamina from Android 17's initial assault.

Trunks is immediately knocked out in two attacks in the same manner that Piccolo is. Meanwhile a battle worn, stamina drained Vegeta, with one broken arm is capable of getting back up and continued to fight.

The difference is made pretty clear. A statement from Kami ascertains Vegeta as being more powerful meanwhile the humans still lump all the Super Saiyans together because it's a level of power that they do not fully comprehend yet, but it's not the same as saying that just because they group Super Saiyans into one topic means that it's synonymous with strength, because that is discredited by everything above.

Let's stack up the arguments:

Me:

a) Kami
b) Trunks's reaction towards Vegeta
c) Vegeta calling Trunks useless
d) The humans calling Trunks an idiot for intervening
e) Trunks being knocked out in the same manner as Piccolo, two blows
f) Trunks having a difficult time keeping up with Vegeta while flying
g) Trunks isn't noted to have gotten stronger since he first arrived
h) Trunks is knocked out while a worn out Vegeta isn't
i) Trunks believes Vegeta can win, but has complete doubt in himself
j) Vegeta is strong enough to put up a fight against Android 18 while Trunks isn't

You

a) A statement from Tenshinhan that grouped the Super Saiyans together

This debate is pretty much over.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Tien acknowledged that Trunks was the one who took out Freeza, but this doesn't change the fact that he still shit himself seeing Super Saiyan Goku's power being displayed. Goku being weaker than suppressed Freeza completely negates anything he said about Goku's incredible power.

Because Freeza was suppressed. There was never any mention of his Chi going up as far as I know.

 

[GokhanDBZfan]

Trunks arrived to the main time-line fully believing that the Androids would be the same battle power as the ones from his time-line. However, he is proven wrong. But before he is, he is blown away by Vegeta's performance.

Yes, because he appeared to be fighting with 18 evenly, something he probably couldn't accomplish.

Additionally, the humans call Trunks an idiot for running in to aid Vegeta because he's regarded as being completely useless. Vegeta affirms this notion and the humans support it when things got serious.

They can call him an idiot for multiple reasons, including him disregarding the rules 17 told them to go by.
I attribute that to Vegeta's arrogant attitude, as 17 considers them a threat to 18.

Trunks wasn't stated or implied to have suffered battle damage from Android 17. He immediately got back up and appeared to be fine. Therefore the implication is that Android 17 intentionally held back and this suggests that it's an irrelevant form of information to determine how Trunks stacks up against Vegeta because Android 17's motive was not to kill any of the Z-Fighters, rendering the argument completely invalid.

They were in the middle of a fight scene, with Krillin only sh*tting his pants at 17 smashing Trunks.
A stamina drop would have been a pointless thing to mention, when Trunks gets knocked out in the next hit anyway.
While both 18 and 17 didn't go for the kill, there is zero evidence for 17 holding back majority of his power with a double axe handle strike, especially after seeing Trunks' power in action.
The same argument could be said for 18 not hitting Vegeta hard enough as well.

Vegeta had battled Android 18 for an indefinite period of time up until this point and is clearly drawn and shown to have suffered massive battle damage. Yet when Trunks is thrown into him, he immediately gets back up and continues his assault upon the Androids, despite having a broken arm and despite losing stamina -both of which are shown and stated, whereas Trunks isn't noted to have lost stamina from Android 17's initial assault.

Vegeta could fight and still pose a threat even after a beatdown from Goku, a Kamehameha to the back, a blast to eye and a freaking Genki Dama half as strong the one intended to kill his ten times stronger ape form.
That, along with 17 striking Trunks from behind instead of 18, is enough of a reason for Trunks to be in the same tier as Vegeta, just not as endurant.

Trunks is immediately knocked out in two attacks in the same manner that Piccolo is. Meanwhile a battle worn, stamina drained Vegeta, with one broken arm is capable of getting back up and continued to fight.

See my reply above.Vegeta is a tough son of a b*tch, unlike Trunks.
And 17 hit Trunks from the behind, unlike with Piccolo.

Let's stack up the arguments:

Me:

a) Kami
b) Trunks's reaction towards Vegeta
c) Vegeta calling Trunks useless
d) The humans calling Trunks an idiot for intervening
e) Trunks being knocked out in the same manner as Piccolo, two blows
f) Trunks having a difficult time keeping up with Vegeta while flying
g) Trunks isn't noted to have gotten stronger since he first arrived
h) Trunks is knocked out while a worn out Piccolo isn't
i) Trunks believes Vegeta can win, but has complete doubt in himself

You

a) A statement from Tenshinhan that grouped the Super Saiyans together

This debate is pretty much over.

Your stacking of my arguments is a disgusting lie, only meant to make your ''side'' look better.

Here are my real arguments:

a)A statement from Tenshinhan grouping the SSJ together
b)Kami's statement, treating Piccolo as inferior to Freeza
c)17 considering the others a threat to 18, contradicting Vegeta's boasts.
d)Trunks keeping up with Vegeta while flying, without any real difficulty
e)Piccolo and the others revering Trunks' power
f)Trunks getting knocked out after huge emphasis is placed on a much stronger Android 17 from striking him from behind

Tien acknowledged that Trunks was the one who took out Freeza, but this doesn't change the fact that he still shit himself seeing Super Saiyan Goku's power being displayed. Goku being weaker than suppressed Freeza completely negates anything he said about Goku's incredible power.

Because Freeza was suppressed. There was never any mention of his Chi going up as far as I know.

Tenshinhan forgot a thing like Super Saiyan even existed in that scene, so I don't take that statement to mean anything other than him being a clueless dunce.

The thing is, Freeza's power is never stated to have been surpressed.
The wording of that quote from Gohan implies they were sensing his standing ki and not suppressed ki.
Their reactions(including Goku's) to Trunks' feat afterwards would imply he sliced Freeza at his maximum, as would the general purpose of brining him back to life.